Proud Mary

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I'm making progress on my MIG welding, especially since I've gone with C25. Good penetration and consistent waves but it's twice what I'd like in height. I'm leaving alot of metal on the topside. I think they call it a "proud" weld bead. Any diagnoses and recommendations? I know; I should add a pic or two but it's late. I'll get em first thing in the morning and post them tomorrow. And as always, thanks so much for your help.
Reply:Yeah we need picts and setting info. You can reduce the fill by changing wire size or altering your settings and travel speed. One other thing I notice often is guys are fixated on the "cursive e" pattern or circles. I frequently have to explain to students that you often have to change your pattern or technique depending on the joint you are running. Circles usually means you spend a lot of time in the puddle over a given area at "X" travel speed. That works great when I need students to learn to slow down. However it's the wrong thing many times when they get to say outside corners on 1/8" where they have to lay down a very small bead. I can do a demo on outside corners using a circular pattern, but I have to keep my circles miniscule and fly like the wind to keep the fill down to an acceptable level. It's much easier to simply use a C or z pattern where you are there 1/2 the amount of time, or simply do a straight stringer with almost no motion where I can go nice and slow and watch my fill.It really frustrates some of them when I will sit there and do a demo pass where I swap from circles to C's/Z's, to stringers without stopping, and when I'm done you can't see where I changed my motions. The real key isn't the pattern, it's the fact I can read the puddle and make changes on the fly based on what I see the molten metal doing. Same applies to machine settings or wire size to a certain degree. Because I know how to read the puddle, it's not difficult for me to alter things like motion, travel speed, stick out etc so I get the desired results.While other things may help, my guess is that you haven't really had that "Ah Ha!" moment when all things click and you suddenly can read the puddle. There really isn't anything anyone else can do to help you with that. Pay close attention to what is happening with the puddle as you weld and make changes and hopefully it will all click for you..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:In the odd moment that I use c25 I prefer to weld  shade so dark I can't even see what I am laying down. I just find the speed that works and see what I laid down after the fact.I prefer to just run along with no movement as I think that pretty boy weld is not worth the time. I like the bead looking way to hot.I think if you drag it tends to pile the weld up more than the other way so you can monkey with your angle or setting a bit maybe. And if I am pushing the nozzle is hiding the puddle so welding dark is what I like there too.
Reply:Idk if its your problem, but I get a tall bead when my gun angle is laid back too much (drag). When it does that I just run the gun more at a vertical angle (almost 90 degrees) and it fixes it. It could also be the settings too. Try more voltage and less wire speed. Hope maybe one of those helps
Reply:As always, you guys are right. No, the BIG "Ah Ha" moment hasn't happened yet but I know it's coming because I'm having alot of small "Ah Ha" moments as I try and fail and try something else and succeed. One of those moments was changing from fancy-dancy "Cursive Es" and other "patterns" that just weren't working for  me. I needed to find what did work for me and my hand and discovered today it was the straight pull at the appropriate speed as Mikecwik said. I was getting good pattern, not fancy but good and I was happy with that. But when I'd try and repeat it, I couldn't. I was getting 1 good and 9 bad. I've been on both .060 flat sheet and .100, 1 7/8" round stock, pieces of pipe coral from around the ranch. With the flat in pics 1a and 1b, the top is an improvement for me but probably looks like junk to real weldors and the bottom shows heat pattern I understand to evidence penetration. In pic 2, welding near the end, I can look down the inside and see I'm getting correct penetration. Probably incorrectly, both thicknesses are being welded with setting on A and between 1 and 2 on WS. (Yes, I still have my 180 tapped machine) using C25 at 15 CFH. The chart says I should be using .030 with gas on the thicker material and doesn't even recommend no gas welding on the thinner stuff.  I think maybe the problem may be I'm using .035 Lincoln steel instead of the recommended .030 on both thicknesses which would account for so much material being deposited with the rest looking OK. I don't know. Embarassing, humbling welds to be sure but when I compare them to the ones I did a couple of months ago that really did resemble bird droppings, well, there's a world of difference. Big thing is I'm understanding more so I'm able to learn more and try and put it into practice. Before, I didn't understand and so I had no hope of improving. I know I say it alot but I really do appreciate the education you all provide. I'm one of those people that, if I can't understand the process and its reasoning, I can't execute. Attached ImagesLast edited by jlames; 08-20-2013 at 11:35 PM.
Reply:New just now. Same gas, A-1 settings. Putting two small pieces of .060 sheet together with a lap. Pictures are top and reverse bottom. Attached Images
Reply:Those are really cold looking.Are you trying the "mig like tig" thing?  Just do small circles/cursive Es, and turn up the heat.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:This may not make much sense but get some 3/16 plate or flatstock and make assemblies to practice on. Ts laps corners and stuff.
Reply:Looking at the underside of the weld after putting down a bead, the cherry-red color and visual characteristic tends to make me believe that I'm right on the line between poor penetration and undercut/blow through which I've been told is just where I need to be. Am I incorrect? If I turn up the heat, I go through the base metal.
Reply:Just try backing down the wire speed some. It looks like your just piling on too much filler too fast. Sometimes uping the heat will make a weld lay in better but that may not be the case here. Fiddle with the settings and find out. Also when your just running a bead on top of flat plate its gonna be a little talller than a real joint would because there is nothing to fill. I strongly suggest practice with real joints likes Ts and laps
Reply:Simply turning the metal red doesn't necessarily indicate good penetration. Going slow could cause the material to turn red and you still might be running cold. You can run higher heat settings by increasing your travel speed as one possibility. I'm still trying to wade thru your rambling description of your settings... Looks like material is aprox 16 ga plate, wire is .035, wire speed is between 1-2, heat "A". I still don't know what machine you are using though, so I can only guess about the settings.16ga I'd want to be using .024 wire or .030 wire with gas. I'd probably want to be on the 2 to 3rd heat setting ( assuming you have 4-7 taps available). Wire speed would depend on wire size. On my little 110v mig running .023 with 4 taps, I'd be on tap 3 wire about 4-5. On my MM185, I'd be on tap 2 or 3 most likely running .030, I'd guess I'd have the wire in the 3-4 range. I could probably still get the bead to run on the MM 185 up to about tap 5, but I'd have to really fly to prevent burn thru..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I'm sorry if I was rambling. I'll try and be more succinct because as I've said before, I truly appreciate the time you all give to those of us who are trying to understand the art. But your take-away from my post is correct; 16 ga plate, wire is .035, wire speed is between 1-2, heat "A". I also mentioned that the gas I'm using is C25 with a flow rate of 15 and that it was a 180 tapped machine; a Lincoln 180HD to be exact. The .035 wire is Lincoln L-56. I'll be headed over to the LWS this morning to pick up some .030 and .024 to try those.
Reply:0.035 solid wire?  On 16 gauge sheetmetal (0.060 inch thick)?Man, you're making things hard on yourself.For sheetmetal and MIG, I'll usually run either my 'usual' 0.030 wire or swap in a spool of 0.025 wire.  C25 gas for all.  Settings on a 180-class machine would be around 'middle' or slightly less for both voltage and WFS (which is pretty much the amperage 'setting' on a wire-feed welder), if I didn't have a manual or door-chart 'suggested parameter' setting.And getting the back of the sheetmetal 'hot' is no real indication on whether you actually melted both the filler wire AND the base metal so that you achieved the desired welding Zen State-of-Oneness between the various metal pieces.  Just melting the filler wire is easy.And that molten filler wire will usually make the workpiece(s) hot, maybe up to red hot.  But red-hot (bright-red) is only about 1400F or so.  Steel doesn't melt until around 2600F or so.So you could have the steel up to a bright red color and be nowhere near to melting it.For practice with short-circuit transfer GMAW aka MIG (all your 180-class machine can really do, transfer mode wise) I like 1/8" steel pieces.  Make a lap joint with that 1/8" steel and weld that up.Why 1/8" steel and why a lap joint?  Lap joint so you have an edge to follow visually and so you don't instantly blow right through the joint (you can still blow through 1/8" steel with a 180-class machine, so don't think you can just set the machine to 'Kill' as Zap does with his pedal-controlled GTAW welding    ) and so that you have enough material there so you can (hopefully) see the arc melting the parent material and the filler filling in the crater/puddle.1/8" steel so you have enough material so you don't (usually) instantly blow a hole right through the parent material and so you have enough material to get a puddle melting into the parent material and see all this happening and yet not have material so thick that the machine/process can't successfully weld things together (reasonably).Also, in general, with GMAW you want to 'push' the puddle.If there's slag, then drag.GMAW is not a slag-producing process (ignoring the small silicon islands from the silicon deoxidizer in the GMAW filler wire), so do not 'drag' the puddle.FCAW and SMAW are slag-producing processes, so for those you want to drag the puddle (point the filler and arc 'back' at the puddle and then drag/pull the arc/filler forward.Pointing a relatively thick (for the material thickness being welded) wire back at the puddle and then moving relatively slowly will cause the weld bead to 'pile up' on top of the parent material and onto itself.  Result:  excess filler melted into the weld bead and poor penetration into the parent material.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by jlamesI'm sorry if I was rambling. I'll try and be more succinct because as I've said before, I truly appreciate the time you all give to those of us who are trying to understand the art. But your take-away from my post is correct; 16 ga plate, wire is .035, wire speed is between 1-2, heat "A". I also mentioned that the gas I'm using is C25 with a flow rate of 15 and that it was a 180 tapped machine; a Lincoln 180HD to be exact. The .035 wire is Lincoln L-56. I'll be headed over to the LWS this morning to pick up some .030 and .024 to try those.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1I would suggest just getting the .030 wire in the 8" spool as the bigger spools run a lot smoother in the machine. The little ones tend to birds nest.It will cover just about everything that the 180 will do in GMAW
Reply:Originally Posted by Brand XSince the machine will go up to 500 IPM in wirefeed, .030 ER70-6 wire will be more then the machine can handle. Only reason for using .035, would be if you are welding with self shielded wire..
Reply:I'm sorry MoonRise. I 'm not intentionally trying to make things hard on myself. I just need to understand the whats and whys of the process before I can understand and accept the result. I think most beginners are that way.  I do remember someone saying "Slag-drag" awhile back but it apparently didn't  stick with me because it took until you mentioned it for me to remember and your explanation of what it means and why it's a rule of thumb now makes sense to me. I was pulling the puddle like I did with flux core. I guess when I switch polarity, I'll switch directions!  I'm headed to the LWS now to get that .030 and .025 and I'll try it this afternoon. Oh, and as for the 8" spool, I took your advice after I went through my first small spool, Ed, and now I just buy the large spools. Which brings me to another question; Does it make sense to put the partially-used spools I switch out in a resealable, plastic, freezer-type bag before I put it in the box and up on the shelf? I've heard tell that air reacts badly with the wire while it's stored.Last edited by jlames; 08-21-2013 at 03:01 PM.
Reply:You should be fine storing the wire like that. I know I am. I think you kinda have to make it hard on yourself when you are learning stuff. A lot of people think what they have been doing for 30 years is easy and if they show you once you know all that there is too know about it.
Reply:re: storing a spool of wireIf steel pieces rust just sitting around in your 'shop' from humidity, then pull the wire spool off and store it someplace dry and 'protected'.I've taken to putting  'small' spools not in the machines into a gasketed 'sealed' toolbox with some VCI tool-liner mat in it.  Just don't overload the toolbox or throw your back out lifting a 70# toolbox.    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:We're up towards the high desert region of Southern California in the north portion of Los Angeles County so it's pretty dry all year but for us, the gasketed box is a good idea. It gets windy and we're always inundated with dust so we have a surplus of airtight storage boxes for our horse tack. The leather keeps alot better in them because they slow the drying effects of the climate.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1wait, are you saying .030 is too big for the Lincoln 180?
Reply:Well, I just returned from Steampunk Welders Supply with .030,,, and a hat...and a whole new posture and it makes all the difference in the world. And on the way home, the local Steampunk group invited me to hang out with them for a bit at the bar. Suffice to say, between the .030 steel wire, the hat, the cloak and my wh9ole new posture, I think things'll be looking up for my welding!!!OK, just kidding. I came across this and thought you all would get a kick out of it. Especially the duckbill! Also, found an old movie too. Hope you enjoy it.http://ia700204.us.archive.org/14/it...dingO1942.mpeg Attached Images
Reply:Hey Sundown isn't that the kind of hood you use?   LMAO......  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Originally Posted by B_CHey Sundown isn't that the kind of hood you use?   LMAO......
Reply:Originally Posted by Showdog75I hate to tell you BC but Sundown just might come out of retirement and steampunk your a$$ for that comment!!! Lol. I miss his short fused straight to the point kinda whit. If your reading this Sundown come on back ol buddy we miss you. SeriouslyI was marveling at some of the metal work Steampunkers either make themselves or purchase, in some cases for hundreds of dollars. One of my friends is an orthopedic surgeon and a Steampunk when he's out of the OR and he just paid $800 for a pair of goggles that has unbelievable filigree work, all TIGed together. I'm trying to get him to send me a picture so I can share it with you all.
Reply:I call him now and then just to say hi.......  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Just hung up with jay and he is busy with the boat stuff....  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Well that's good to hear he's been busy..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan