A Bird Dropping Enthusiast Needs Your Help

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So, I am a beginner...and I'm no Boy Wonder, so any hints/comments/observations/etc would be appreciated.  3/32" 2% La electrode (blue)~15 SCFM ArWP-18 water cooled torch with pedalmetal gone over with acetone, then a 60 grit flap discmild steel weldcote er70s2 filler01 - first attempt - whoopsy, water cooler wasn't on 02 - second attempt...hmm...love those bird droppings 03 - freshly ground 3/32" blue tungsten04 - stick out with freshly ground 3/32" blue tungsten 05 - third attempt06 - third attempt, second pass07 - tungsten after second pass 08 - third attempt, third pass 09 - tungsten after third pass part 1 (could not create HF arc for fourth pass)10 - tungsten after third pass part 2 (could not create HF arc for fourth pass)Then I got a headache...didn't open garage door...  Lesson 1: Fumes aren't your friend!Total hood time: ~30 minutes lolAnd for some reason we're limited to 10 images per post (I had tons more for your viewing...pleasure?  pain?)Thank you for your help/time/patience/etcErik
Reply:The orange "halos" around your beads say that you have contamination in the weld.metal gone over with acetone, then a 60 grit flap disc
Reply:... one more tip: when you see your tungsten crudding up and going dull like yours is, that's a sign that something is not right. You absolutely have to stop welding at that point and troubleshoot the problem. And then stop using that tungsten until you re-grind it. That tungsten is pretty close to useless after the second pass, and definitely after the third pass.... and one more tip: if you grind off the paint on the end of the electrode, you can sharpen both ends and then just flip them around when you need a new one. Basically doubles the amount of time between having to grind. Not having the paint means you can't easily tell one type of electrode from another, but I only have 2% lanthanated (blue) so it's not an issue.Everlast PA160-STH... and that's about it!
Reply:Your stick out is way short, you probably cant see anything. looks like your running a gas lens. If its a gas lens you can stick that sucker out like 2-3 inches and get coverage still. Do yourself a favor and stick it out longer. Make sure all your fittings are tight and leak free, check your torch body for leaks, check you back cap and your cup seal to make sure its tight. What machine are you using and make sure you are set to Electrode NEGATIVE, foot pedal or scratch start?To me it looks like a gas coverage problem. You might have a bad tank of argon, or maybe a mix tank on accident. Check the label and make sure it is 100% argon. Do you have a MIG welder or anything you can swap the tank to to test if its the bottle or not?Last edited by smilexelectric; 07-31-2013 at 10:08 PM.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:What amperage were you welding at? From the looks of the lap joint it looks like low amperage/long arc length. Low amps causes the steel to take a long time to puddle and lets the steel overheat. Long arc will also make it hard to get a puddle/control it and cause problems with shielding. If those aren't the problems then you need to check for contaminates on the steel (looks clean) and leaks in the torch.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:And another tip..SHARPEN IT!Like this..You will see a huge difference!Stay about 1/8" away from your piece and try that.125 Amps to start with and go slow..Sure your gas is OK and you are getting enough?...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I would go back to basics. Start on a flat plate without filler. Just run fusion beads on the plate. Once you get that down try adding filler.Next do a lap joimt the same way with no filler. Just melt the parent metal and let the puddle tie the metal together. You can do the same with butt welds but the thinner the metal the harder it will be. Once you understand the TIG and the puddle and can make decent looking fusion welds then start adding filler. Make sure the filler dips into the leading edge of the puddle.Lincoln precision TIG 275Millermatic 140 MIG
Reply:Just a tip from another beginner tig welder.  Use a piece of 1/8" or 1/4" thick flat plate and figure out the heat and gas first.  Forget adding filler at this time.  Learn to get a nice puddle that you can see.  Push that puddle around a while and run beads without filler.  You should be able to strike and arc and get a good shimmering puddle in just a few seconds.  Once you get a shimmering puddle its time to move the torch.I agree your tungsten is not sticking out near enough and its not sharp enough. You definitely are over heating the metal. Look at the HAZ nerxt to your bead droppings.  Use DCEN as advised and keep a short arc length of about the thickness of the tungsten.  Most of my welds have been using about 65 to 90 amps but that may differ  between welders.The pics you show above I see you are trying to weld the thin edges of some thinner metal.  Welding edges is a lot harder than learning on flat pieces without the edge.  Edges heat up very fast.  The gap between them looks awful large as well.Last edited by MWalden; 07-31-2013 at 11:09 PM.
Reply:Oh, and the headache may be your helmet settings if you are using an auto dark type.  Make sure you have it on high sensitivity and at least a 9 on the shade value.
Reply:Thank you everyone for your feedback.  I was using 125A on a new Everlast PowerPro 256S with the pedal (and admittedly, my pedal control isn't the best).Guess I forgot to mention I was running ~1s preflow and ~10 second postflow on a new bottle.  The mild steel is 0.1055" thick.I will reverse the flap disc/acetone prep, longer stick out, grinding the tungsten to a pencil-like tip as in the picture zapp posted, no filler, and play with the amperage and gas settings. DCEN = direct current electrode negative?  I just checked again, and that's what I have the welder set at.  It was taking longer than I would've though to create the initial puddle, and when the puddle did finally show, it wasn't long before I burned a hole right through the metal.  This was probably caused by the fact that I eased on the pedal and didn't ease off like I should've as the metal heated up.  If I reverse this behavior, it'll probably help...Again, thank you for all your responses.  I now have plenty of things to try tomorrow!
Reply:Definitely don't want to ease on the pedal. You're just heating up the entire piece. The hotter the piece is, the easier it is to burn through. That can be good if you are working on a thick piece and don't have enough power, but it's bad if you're working on thin pieces. What you want is to create a concentrated zone of heat that creates the puddle, without overheating the rest of the piece. The ability to do exactly this is what makes TIG so good.If your unit has control of the max amperage via the front panel, set the front panel amperage to the high-ish range of whatever Miller's TIG welding calculator gives for your material. .10" is about 3/32", and they say you want an amperage range of about 90-120. So set the panel to 120 amps and then, basically, floor the pedal, or get it to about 90%, right off the bat as soon as you start the arc. Once the puddle does form, you will want to get moving, to avoid burning through, but nobody ever said TIG was easy.Another way to get a perspective on how fast the puddle should form is to use the finger switch, if you have one, with constant amperage output. Set the panel to a fixed 110 amps output and hit the finger switch. If your unit has upslope/downslope, that's even better. That's more or less what you want to see happening when you're working the pedal.Finally: 0.10" is a little thin for a first-timer. Folks on WW who teach TIG say that they usually start beginners with 1/8" stock. It'd certainly help you avoid burning through.Everlast PA160-STH... and that's about it!
Reply:A good exercise for a beginner is to get some flat stock and just practice establishing a puddle, then backing off the pedal. Explore how amperage output and arc length affect the size and nature of the puddle by changing one variable at a time. Don't bother with filler at first. Try to establish a puddle of a consistent size, quickly, without burning through.Everlast PA160-STH... and that's about it!
Reply:Originally Posted by NeoMobiusI was using 125A The mild steel is 0.1055" thick.It was taking longer than I would've thought to create the initial puddle,  and when the puddle did finally show, it wasn't long before I burned a hole right through the metal
Reply:like others have said. You need to crawl before you can walk. try fusion on of flat plate. run the puddle across, keep it looking consistent. This will help you get comfortable with the torch. In school when we started tig we just used scratch start without the pedal and did fusion. makes it a little easier not have to have every body part doing something different- Christian M.C3 Welding & Fabrication - CNC Plasma Cutting-Mobile Welding-Custom welding and fabwww.c3welding.com
Reply:Looks like you're cooking the steel to me.  Should be hot and fast.  also looks lime you dipped your tungsten and didn't regrind.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Day 2 UpdateThanks again to everyone for your suggestions/comments/observations.  Based on Dave's suggestion, I watched a few of Jody's youtube videos before tonight's attempt.  Also incorporated many of the suggestions provided.I used a 3/16" thick piece of mild steel tonightLonger stick outSharpened my tungsten (3/32" 2% La (blue)) as indicated in the picture zapp so kindly providedCleaned with flap disc then acetone~16 SCFM argon175A unless otherwise noted DCENFreshly ground tungstenTop pass was 150A.  Increased to 175A for remainderTried using filler.  Didn't work out so well.  Tungsten contaminated?Second pass on the filler trialAnother pass without filler to see if the tungsten was contaminatedAttempting a lap joint (no filler) between the 3/32" and the 0.105" (used 150A)Hmm...what I would consider a superficial weldDid the right side then did a second pass on the bottom (no filler).  Think tungsten is contaminated by this pointWell, I think I got better.  Everyone's suggestions helped tremendously.  Also wore my 3M half-face respirator as well as opened the garage door partially.  No headache tonight.  Once again, any comments/observations/suggestions/tricks/tips/sarcastic remarks/etc would be appreciated!Erik
Reply:I am not expert either, just a beginner but I say you are way too hot on amps.  Looks like you are again cooking things to death.Try lowering the amps to 90amps and see what happens.  Just a "try it and see".  I have never welded mild steel at the amps you are using.Also, things look decent until you start adding filler.  Are you keeping the end of the filler close to the edge of the cup so it stays in the shield of gas?  Also looks like you lose your sense of travel direction and travel speed as you are adding filler. Maybe adding the filler is still a little distracting to you. That will change with practice.Now, these pics are of tig welds on stainless steel so that differs a bit.  I was using 3/32" 2% Thoriated tungsten, 1/16" 308L filler rod, 85amps DCEN, regular gas lens with #8 cup, argon flow at 20cfm.I did these tonight practicing some of those "trailing off" tips to prevent cratering and gray welds.
Reply:I think you have a shielding gas issue.Some things show progress..Others show problems with something.Touch the tungsten to the piece or filler..Contaminated.Stop..regrind.The pics with all the holes is classic gas coverage that's not.Can you hear it "hisssssssssssss" out of the torch when you are getting started?Put the torch up to your ear and listen to it after you hit the pedal and see what you hear.Stay on the pedal and see if it keeps going or sputters out after awhile.Stay away from the ground but keep the tungsten in the torch like it's all set to weld..You won't get bit if you don't touch anything..Gas...Can you hear me?...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Drf I don't know how you get welds that look like that with filler but you are definitely doing it wrong lol. I think you are using way to much. You want to do little dabs in the puddle. It looks like you must be pushing a lot of rod in. Again your first step is to get used to reading the puddle. Your fusion welds on the plate look okay. Keep practicing them.Your lap joint needs some work. It looks to me like you are going without paying attention to the puddle. Start your puddle on the top plate then drag it down to the bottom plate. You will see the puddle tie them together. Now increase the puddle till it's spanning the gap nicely and start moving. If the puddle breaks off one piece of metal backstep a little and give it a little more pedal. You should end up with a smooth fillet across the whole piece. Once you get that go back to the flat plate and start adding filler. Do it just like the fusion welds but start dipping filler in the puddle every quarter in or so. This will be too far apart for a proper weld but it will start getting you familiar with the pattern.Lincoln precision TIG 275Millermatic 140 MIG
Reply:Neo, looks better than the last welds. Something still doesn't look right though. The welds are dull and you aren't getting penetration into the root of the lap joint. I think you are holding a long arc, try holding the tungsten as close to the steel as you can without touching it or hitting the tungsten with filler. Do this for a short (1/2") weld just to see how the steel looks after you do. The weld should be bright and shiny.MWalden, the ends of those are looking good. Both of you keep practicing Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:check your display (or have someone else check it ) while striking an arc to see if the pedal is  really giving you the pre-set amperage. sometimes the everlast pedals had to be reset . it just looks like you're using low amperage for a long time to get that wide heat affected zone and cooked weld metal.miller thunderbolt 250vlincoln square wave tig 175 prolincoln idealarc mig sp250everlast tig 210EXTeverlast power plasma 50chicago electric (hf) 130 tig/90 arcchicago electric 90 amp flux wire3 sets oxy/acet
Reply:Hope you don't mind the pictures. The color of the welds should be closer to these.(A36 welded with ER70s-2)  When the welds look gray something isn't right. Attached ImagesAirco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:I just quickly tossed a couple pieces of 3/16" flat bar together for a butt weld.  I just cleaned it a little and no where near good enough.First pic is the results of:- 3/32" Thoriated Tung- 70amps- 3/32" ER70s-2 filler- Gas lens #8 cup- 20cfm argon flowThis bottom pic is of the flip side of the metal.  Same setup but I adjusted amps to 90amps, very little cleaning to the metal and look what I got.I also contaminated my tungsten and it showed.
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugHope you don't mind the pictures. The color of the welds should be closer to these.(A36 welded with ER70s-2)  When the welds look gray something isn't right.
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugHope you don't mind the pictures. The color of the welds should be closer to these.(A36 welded with ER70s-2)  When the welds look gray something isn't right.Originally Posted by joshuabardwellSo, what might not be right? I am pretty meticulous about cleaning and grinding, and my TIG welds usually don't have any porosity or other signs of obvious contamination. But they're usually dull gray, not shiny, when I'm done. It may be that I'm removing gas coverage before the weld fully cools. I sometimes notice that when I pull the torch away at the end of the weld, the whole thing kind of goes "whoosh" to a different color. Do I need more post-flow? I kind of figured it didn't matter, except for aesthetics.
Reply:Try using a bigger cup.Try higher and lower gas flow. Too much flow can cause the same issues as too little. I never use much smaller than a 8 cup in day to day welding.Make 100% sure you have 100% argon. After that play with travel speed. Play with puddle size too. If you just can't get shiny welds you might try to find a local welder who can see if the can get it dialed in. Either that or get a new tank of gas. Occasionally you will get a bad one and it's a nightmare when you are new and don't know what the problem is.Lincoln precision TIG 275Millermatic 140 MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugWhat size cup do you usually use/ CFH?
Reply:I just had to try some more.  Turns out, you can get those shiny beads.  I laid two pieces of round stock together so that I had sort of a V groove weld and that helped trap some argon I guess.Even at higher amps I still got shiny beads with no grey.  Now I need to also work on getting my beads consistent spacing and nice ripples.Last edited by MWalden; 08-02-2013 at 01:53 AM.
Reply:And look here.  I accidentally scratch started the arc before I had pre-flow gas.
Reply:That's a #8 lens in your pics? It looks tiny.Lincoln precision TIG 275Millermatic 140 MIG
Reply:To the OP,You have some type of gas issue.  The odd part is that your tungsten looks ok.  Usually if you have no flow, it would burn up a bit and be colored.  I know that any CO2 content can really screw the pooch, but it usually causes excessive heat input on tig with melted tungstens and cups.I'd try a new tank of argon.  It's conceivable you have a bad tank of gas.  I currently have a 250 of bad Argon.  Can't really do Al with it, but steel and stainless still come out shiny with it.  And that's with a gas lens, a number 7 cup and 8-10 cfh of flow.  You sure your gas gauge is in cfh and not psi?Wayyyyyy too much stickout now.  You can use that much with a GL, but you really shouldn't regularly.  Only to get into tight spots and filets.  Hey Squirmy, great beads.  You walkin on those?Last edited by Drf255; 08-02-2013 at 06:08 AM.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Drf, first picture I WTC second picture was freehand.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by MWaldenI am not expert either, just a beginner but I say you are way too hot on amps. Looks like you are again cooking things to death.Try lowering the amps to 90amps and see what happens. Just a "try it and see". I have never welded mild steel at the ampsyou are using.Also, things look decent until you start adding filler. Are you keeping the end of the filler close to the edge of the cup so it staysin the shield of gas? Also looks like you lose your sense of travel direction and travel speed as you are adding filler. Maybe addingthe filler is still a little distracting to you. That will change with practice.Now, these pics are of tig welds on stainless steel so that differs a bit. I was using 3/32" 2% Thoriated tungsten, 1/16" 308L filler rod,85amps DCEN, regular gas lens with #8 cup, argon flow at 20cfm.I did these tonight practicing some of those "trailing off" tips to prevent cratering and gray welds.
Reply:Definitely get yourself at least one regular gas lens setup with #7 cup.  It will help you to see the metal, the puddle and your tungsten tip while welding.  Just get a cheap one to practice with.  I got one off eBay for about $10.00 for the cup, gas lens body and collet.
Reply:I vote for gas issue as well. That organey haze is the first give away to a shielding issue. Steel sometimes will appear to tolerate some contamination. Aluminum WILL NOT. If you have some around, you can just try getting a puddle going on it. Once you get your shielding sorted, the next thing to work on will be torch control. Mostly travel while maintaining a short arc length. A long arc length and/or too little amps will actually INCREASE your heat input to the workpiece because the heat is distributed much wider. You want to put it in a narrow and defined place..
Reply:Originally Posted by MWaldenI just had to try some more.  Turns out, you can get those shiny beads.  I laid two pieces of round stock together so that I had sort of a V groove weld and that helped trap some argon I guess.Even at higher amps I still got shiny beads with no grey.  Now I need to also work on getting my beads consistent spacing and nice ripples.
Reply:How does one test a bottle of argon to determine if the argon is bad, or do people usually just pay the $$$ to get a fresh one at the LWS?
Reply:Originally Posted by NeoMobiusHow does one test a bottle of argon to determine if the argon is bad, or do people usually just pay the $$$ to get a fresh one at the LWS?
Reply:I've taken a full bottle back to my LWS (Tyler Welding Supply) minus a few failed bad arc starts back in exchange for another with samples of what was happening. One sample being from a known good bottle, and one from the suspected bad bottle. Hassle free; no questions asked. If you don't have another bottle or access to one to use for a comparison I would simply take in a scrap piece to illustrate what your experiencing. Kinda of s****y due to the fact it's roughly 30 miles round trip for me, should it happen again I'll ask for compensatory consumables of some sort to offset the fuel cost. Any LWS needs clients to continue their existence so some sort of customer service/satisfaction is necessary. They really are a good group of guys, and I understand sh!t happens and some of which may be out of their control, but it's not coming out of my pocket. Late to bed, and early to rise. Fish like hell so I don't have to make up lies. Syncrowave 200MM211 & Spoolmate 100
Reply:Neomobius, why are you not using the proper Teflon insulator for the torch on your gas lens setup? 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarNeomobius, why are you not using the proper Teflon insulator for the torch on your gas lens setup?
Reply:A pic of your disassembled torch in exploded view may help as well.  On some torches, the placement of the collet holder/GL can and will change the length that the back cap will thread in and can obstruct the gas ports.  Terry Shovelon told me that it's happened many times in his shop.  You're threading the GL in first hand tight and then the back cap, right?For bad gas, it helps to have good gas for a comparison piece.   If your machine is AC capable, SS wirebrush a piece of aluminum and wipe with acetone.  Light up on it and just make a swirl with zero filler.  It should be shiny in the center with a frosty white corona.  If there's any black or grey, there's a definite gas issue.  Any reputable supply will notice that ASAP.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveI noticed that as well - but the reason is that's what I'm using too.When I stopped in to my LWS and got some gas lens parts last year for my WP-26, they didn't have the right one in stock.  The cup butted up to my regular insulator and I've been using it that way since.I do not know if it will cause problems, but it seems ok so far (for my part-time use)   Maybe someone on WW knows the answer?Dave J.
Reply:Mike - yep, I'm missing a piece but it has not seemed to matter.  Welds good and no shielding issues thus far - so I'm not sure why it's needed actually.As Drf255 wrote, the gas lens gets screwed in until it bottoms out.  Then everthing else gets put on Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255A pic of your disassembled torch in exploded view may help as well.  On some torches, the placement of the collet holder/GL can and will change the length that the back cap will thread in and can obstruct the gas ports.  Terry Shovelon told me that it's happened many times in his shop.  You're threading the GL in first hand tight and then the back cap, right?For bad gas, it helps to have good gas for a comparison piece.   If your machine is AC capable, SS wirebrush a piece of aluminum and wipe with acetone.  Light up on it and just make a swirl with zero filler.  It should be shiny in the center with a frosty white corona.  If there's any black or grey, there's a definite gas issue.  Any reputable supply will notice that ASAP.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeHere Dave, I think you and the op are missing this spacer. You can play back and forth with the back cap and collet body and cup and get them fairly close, but not a perfect seal. I think you may be missing this spacer. If you look up the specs of your torch it should show you the exploded view of a standard ceramic cup and gas lense set up with the part numbers.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveMike - yep, I'm missing a piece but it has not seemed to matter.  Welds good and no shielding issues thus far - so I'm not sure why it's needed actually.As Drf255 wrote, the gas lens gets screwed in until it bottoms out.  Then everthing else gets put on Dave J.
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarIs that a jumbo/large gas lens, or a medium one?  this is my medium gas lens on my 17 torch
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeYeah that's weird bud, with mine I would have a tiny gap, but if I backed out the lense a little bit and played around with the back cap and cup and yada yada I would get it to barely touch, but it would never be right and I knew I shouldn't have to be wasting time like that. So I looked up the specs and it did show the spacer, but every set up's a little different I guess going brand to brand with torches I guess. As long as you don't have shielding issues leave it, why keep piling parts on to your torch.