Arrgghhhh, need help (with pics)

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Some time back I posted a topic asking your advice on welding a vertical inside corner (filet) weld.  It is 16 gauge steel tubing against 1/8" plate.  I've become pretty good at 7018ac and 6011 on thicker metal, say 3/32 and higher, in all positions. But as the old saying goes, "anybody can stick two quarter-inch slabs together, but it's the thin stuff that separates the men from the boys."  That's turning out to be true.Here are some pics of my mess so far. The main problem is burn-through of the thinner metal.  If I go fast enough to prevent burn-through, it doesn't have time to lay down enough filler.  If I slow down enough to create a viable puddle, it instantly burns through.  I tried what I have. Pics are in this order:1/16" 7014 at 35a.  Was easy enough, but just didn't melt into the metal.  The tubing actually fell off when I finished.1/16" 7014 at 55a. I thought maybe some more current would help. Nope, instant burn-through.The 3rd and 4th pics are, respectively, 3/32 6011 @50a and 3/32 7018@65a (neither of them would arc below that).  Both were instant burn-throughs unless I went so fast it didn't have time to lay a bead.  I tried them with various weaves, mainly zig-zag and loop.These are all going down, with the rod pointed slightly upward.  I also tried this with my 110V wire welder, using .035 fluxcore, but it also burns through, actually even faster than the stick, unless I turn it down so low it won't even arc.  Where do I go from here? If I could just find SOMETHING that works, I could go out to the shop and just practice with it until I have it whipped, then I could go on with the project. And please don't advise me to go out and buy more equipment, I can't afford it. Thanks.1/16" 7014 @ 35a1/16" 7014 @ 55a3/32" 6011 @ 50a3/32" 7018AC @ 65a-RuarkLincoln 3200HDHobart Stickmate LX235TWECO Fabricator 211i
Reply:Looks like you are only burning through on the 16G tube. The 1/8" sheet looks like it didn't fuse because of low amps. Try pointing the electrode at the 1/8" to form a puddle then "wash" the puddle up onto the 16G, it will be just a little of a "weave" motion from 1/8" to 16G. I know you don't want to buy another welder but a solid wire mig or even a tig welder would be much better for things like this.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:7014 and 7018 downhill ain't help'n things.  Where is your ground connected? Is stuff clean?Last edited by tapwelder; 09-01-2013 at 03:54 PM.
Reply:Practice the weld horizontal first.  It will be easier to figure out rod angle, travel speed, amps - etc.Then use what you learned to do it vertical.  If you can't do it horizontal, you're wasting you time with vertical. +1 on pointing the majority of the heat at the thicker plate.Good luck Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Thanks for the replies so far. My responses:The metal was shiny-clean, both pieces.Re: practicing flat, horizontal. I do just fine in those positions, and also vertical on a flat surface or with thicker pieces. The electrode is clamped onto the 1/8" piece a few inches away.Virtually everybody has recommended doing this downhill. You disagree?I will try directing more on the thicker piece.-RuarkLincoln 3200HDHobart Stickmate LX235TWECO Fabricator 211i
Reply:If you weld it downhill use 6011. The other rods are going to be harder to weld downhill because of the slagAirco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Are you limited to an AC only machine?Looks like you may be running too long of an arc as well.  Keep the rod in close as in stuffed in without snuffing the arc (a little trickier with AC only).  Rod pointed at the 1/8" and wash puddle over to 16ga. as has already been mentioned.You might also consider low penetrating 6013.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:One issue I frequently see with problems like this is that people are trying to use way too much arc length. With the amps up you will want the arc length as close as possible on the 1/16" material. If you try to form a puddle on the 1/8", then swing over to the 1/16" by simply rotating your wrist, a lot of guys will end up increasing the arc length as they get close to the 1/16" piece unintentionally. Most never even realize they are doing so.The suggestion to keep the puddle on the 1/8" as much as possible is a good one. My 1st attempts would be to do exactly what the others have suggested, focus the puddle on the 1/8" and wash it onto the 1/16". If that doesn't work, I'd be tempted to suggest changing your rod angle to favor the thinner piece. Instead of being at 45 deg to both pieces, keep the rod closer to the thinner piece, say 30 deg with 60 deg on the other side. This tends to keep the arc length closer on  the 30 deg side and slightly longer on the 60 deg side where the rod is pointed. I'd have the flux touching the 1/16" material and maybe just a tiny arc gap on the 1/8" so you get a bit more heat there..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:use the flux core .030 wire and tack move let it cool then tack and repeat
Reply:Originally Posted by flux core joeuse the flux core .030 wire and tack move let it cool then tack and repeat
Reply:Originally Posted by dpaschSorry but thats a Terrible suggestion.....he is using a stick welder for one and if he had a mig flux core is not what you'd want to use on that. also doing "tacking" for a weld bead is a terrible suggestion, you dont get proper penetration with a series of tacks.
Reply:In a case like this, I'll run a J motion. Keeping the long side of the J on the thicker material. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I tried putting the heat more on the 1/8" plate, tried uphill and downhill.  No luck, didn't make any difference. Still major burn-through.-RuarkLincoln 3200HDHobart Stickmate LX235TWECO Fabricator 211i
Reply:Originally Posted by flux core joepoint taken about the tacking but he did say he has a 110 mig
Reply:Metal that thin I would weld down hill. 7018 is an up hill rod only, but 6011and 6013 can go down hill. Actually 6013 was invented for this. Its good at welding thin metal down hill on dcen or ac. So yeah,  run downhill and try to concentrate most of the heat on the thicker piece.
Reply:Thanks for those pics of the "J" pattern. I'll try that, too.  Any particular rod you were thinking of doing that with?-RuarkLincoln 3200HDHobart Stickmate LX235TWECO Fabricator 211i
Reply:Originally Posted by jamesyarbroughMetal that thin I would weld down hill. 7018 is an up hill rod only, but 6011and 6013 can go down hill. Actually 6013 was invented for this. Its good at welding thin metal down hill on dcen or ac. So yeah,  run downhill and try to concentrate most of the heat on the thicker piece.
Reply:referencing "sticking" to  the  metal...  You got to find and control the puddle.  get puddle  on the thicker metal then wash puddle to thinner. The 1/8 metal is not only thicker it also is not an edge vs the 1/16 that appears to be the welded on edge. Hence the 1/16 has much less mass to heat/burn.7018 and 7014 are not recommended as down hill rods.  I do 7018 down hill on ornamental stuff because it gives a flatter weld.
Reply:Originally Posted by RuarkThanks for those pics of the "J" pattern. I'll try that, too.  Any particular rod you were thinking of doing that with?
Reply:CEP is able to consider 7018, but you need to forget 7018 and 7014. Now you can see that heat control is critical. You need enough amps to light the stick, and you need to limit the heat to avoid melt-through. A short arc makes less heat. Since you don't have DC, 6011 is your best bet. Tacks in succession can be an option for learning to control heat, but never with wire machines. 6011 is one rod that starts hot enough to get by with tacks on thin stuff. Stops and starts and hole repairs will get better with time and effort.   D'OH!!At some point, with clean prep-work and practice, it should be possible to run segments of weld bead at alternating locations to avoid over-heating.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Bottom line is you gotta learn to be lightening fast and accurate. 6011 down hand with a whip and pause, and learning to read the puddle and having to long arc your whips as you get going for heat control. Many ways to go about it with f/c and mig also, but just the fact that you started welding and didn't stop even after globular melt down tells me that you need to practice your hiney off. Try in the future not to use a job as a training experience. It will only frustrate the whole situation. Good luck and practice bud I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys