Welding I beam to plate

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What would be the best method to weld a 10' 1/4" I beam to a 12"x12" 1/2" plate. The plate will have holes used to anchor the I beam onto concrete. Would you weld amount the whole beam? Or would that cause too much heat and make the plate brittle?Stitch weld it, or only weld the out side edges? The I beam is I think 3/8" in the center and 1/4" on the edgesMiller 212JD2 model 3 BenderDeWalt 14" Chop sawDelta Drill Press
Reply:Absolutely, weld around the whole beam. 6mm of weld with 7018 would be plenty.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:If I want a beam to stay put, I bevel, and gap. For a full pen weld. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Bevelling the flanges helps achieve more penetration for sure, although it's not required if it's welded all the way around. What is the I beam supporting for a load? It's a 10" er so it will have good strength.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:If the fillets, without beveling, are properly sized, why bevel?  Unless you're restricted in the amount of weld you can put one either side of the joint.Beveling gives more weld contact area, but it really doesn't give more penetration, in the true sense of the word.  Penetration is a function of heat.  I know that's nit picking, but I hate to see guys think they can get more "penetration" with little machines by beveling."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammBeveling gives more weld contact area, but it really doesn't give more penetration, in the true sense of the word.
Reply:Penetration has to do with the mixture, and depth of that mixture, of the filler metal and the parent metal.  A bevel does nothing to enhance this, it's simply a weld with more surface area.You may have a "full pen" weld when you bevel, but haven't increased actual penetration of the parent metal.  Each bead you pile into the beveled joint will have the same penetration as any other bead."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Even I tend to confuse the terms fusion, and penetration.  I've done it here.Penetration as I define it is closer to fusion.  The depth of heat in the metal.  Actually I mean fusion.http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us...netration.aspxAnd I'm assuming you do the same to some degree."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:For example http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...es-can-t/page3 post #66 this thread."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:The beveled weld will be stronger in that it has a larger surface area, but it's no stronger than, let's say, a built up fillet with adequate throat size, on both sides of the plate/beam."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammThe beveled weld will be stronger in that it has a larger surface area, but it's no stronger than, let's say, a built up fillet with adequate throat size, on both sides of the plate/beam.
Reply:You've increased the strength for cyclical loading, but for the average application it's a lot of work for nothing.I really don't care about prints, I do care about the theory behind it.  I'm seeing it, and beginning to understand it, I think, but I'd rather hear you elaborate on it."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Well, the conversation only makes sense if everybody uses the same definition of the word penetration.On the other hand, I do wonder why, if what looks like the web of the vertical I beam is beveled and gapped, what the need for the multipass fillet is...I have had to put what appeared to be superfluous filler in a fillet, but that was because it was to be radiused, to eliminate stress points.Is that why it was done In the photo?Hobart Beta-Mig 2511972 Miller AEAD-200LEMiller 250 TwinNorthern Ind. Hybrid 200Longevity Stick 140Longevity Migweld 200SThermal Arc Pak 3XR
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI'd rather hear you elaborate on it.
Reply:I am wondering why the weld (blue) needs to be any thicker than the parent.that is, does it need to extend beyond the horizontal lines created by the top and bottom of the horizontal member?...other than to relieve potential stress at the 90 formed by the weld and the vertical member? I think possibly, a single pass in the corner might suffice.But I am just surmising.Hobart Beta-Mig 2511972 Miller AEAD-200LEMiller 250 TwinNorthern Ind. Hybrid 200Longevity Stick 140Longevity Migweld 200SThermal Arc Pak 3XR
Reply:I agree with you 100% on post #14.I'm simply saying that welds in the bevel (example 2) have to show good fusion (which BOTH you and I have referred to as penetration).  And your example is a butt joint, not a T joint.  Furthermore, example 2 plainly shows greater surface area, which is proper, and nobody should think any other kind of joint would be safe.Your pics earlier showed T joints, a slightly different animal.My thinking, and I'm coming around to your point of view, although you haven't expressed it, leading me to believe you really don't know why it's better, is as follows.The average fillet, with no beveling, creates a notch situation.  There's a gap where the T joint butts the plate.  Notches are subject to fatigue failure over time.  Flexing has an open area, unconnected area, to work on.  A crack can occur.If we go beyond the capability of the metal to flex, and reach the point where it yields, we have a failure.  The gap helps this to occur, it's a hinge waiting to happen.But, if the material exceeds the fatigue requirements, we're in the clear.  I'm thinking if the structure is designed beyond the anticipated yield point, and fatigue point, it's just fine.  Which is pretty common in a lot of designs.  Maximum allowable deflection in the design is the paramount factor.  To minimize fatigue, deflection has to be kept to a minimum.  Using thicker members etc."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammleading me to believe you really don't know why it's better
Reply:What's the rule on thickness not greater than 1/4".  Isn't there an exemption that says no bevel required for 1/4" and under?I think the thought here is you can "burn in" enough penetration to still get a full weld.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:The idea with 1/4 is that with two welds on either side you should have about 1/8 penetration.  Beveled joints always have more strength than a fillet weld.
Reply:You can  all ya want  But it ain't washin'.  Just makes for eye strain, and maybe a future tick in your eyeI think it's a good discussion about the mechanics of the joint.The standard fillet, without a bevel, allows for cracks(the red arrows).  The bevel, with actual full penetration, makes it a cohesive unit with no notches, and less likely to crack.Which is all well and good.My mission is to understand WHY.I'm not getting ugly here, just trying to unroll a full understanding of the joint, and why it's sometimes desirable. This is the Socratic method, and it works for all of us"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by AndyAWhat's the rule on thickness not greater than 1/4".  Isn't there an exemption that says no bevel required for 1/4" and under?I think the thought here is you can "burn in" enough penetration to still get a full weld.
Reply:Yes you can easily be assured its full penetration.  That's why we work according to tested welding procedures.
Reply:Big fillets on each side can be just as strong as a full pen weld, and a whole lot easier to do.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Altho this article is about pounds of filler and costs there are some basics included that illustrate strength vs. Fillet, PJP &/or CJP given that the joints were made with equal amount of filler each. One thing to consider is, that for me anyway, that I always end up with what equates to a fillet on top of the original PJP or CJP (for T joints) which really equates to nearly double the amount of welding and filler which probably accounts for any apparent additional strength. Keep in mind that when they converted from the old original articles in PDF format to the archived versions not every word and letter went across perfect. There are missing digits and even words but you can still get the gist of what's going on.  http://weldingdesign.com/archive/get...und-weld-metal"The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:So, as I first figured, we're back to surface area.Not trying to be PITA, but I want to fully understand it too.For me, the bevel is mostly about a good sound mechanical connection.  Full weld contact.The fillet is the alternative, where possible.  Same contact area, without the necessity of beveling, provided the fillet is the proper size.  By proper size, I mean a throat at least as thick as the plate you're welding in the case of a one sided fillet, and combined thickness in the case of a two sided fillet."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/Full pen on 3/16 material with two fillets, without joint prep.Anyone who's put a rod to metal can see that there's slag where the puddle meets the air.  If you put a fillet on one side of a piece of 3/16, you'll see a bit of slag protruding underneath the plate.  The adjoining fillet, on the other side of the plate, without prep, just covers up the slag.  So, by my reckoning, it ain't a full pen weld because there's some slag inclusion when you put the opposite fillet over the joint."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:A fillet on only one side, and no bevel is only a half of weld.I had always understood fillet leg should be equal to the plate thickness, and the throat only slightly convex. Too convex a throat can produce too much stress caused by the weld metal shrinkage.Hobart Beta-Mig 2511972 Miller AEAD-200LEMiller 250 TwinNorthern Ind. Hybrid 200Longevity Stick 140Longevity Migweld 200SThermal Arc Pak 3XR
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammSo, as I first figured, we're back to surface area.Not trying to be PITA, but I want to fully understand it too.For me, the bevel is mostly about a good sound mechanical connection.  Full weld contact.The fillet is the alternative, where possible.  Same contact area, without the necessity of beveling, provided the fillet is the proper size.  By proper size, I mean a throat at least as thick as the plate you're welding in the case of a one sided fillet, and combined thickness in the case of a two sided fillet.
Reply:Absolutely.I'm talking about the two sided fillet that buries some slag from the first fillet.  Not a bad thing, but it is the real deal on thin material without some back gouging.  But like you, and I, have said..........proper sized throats will make for a good two sided weld"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Where I can't get to the other side to weld, the bevel is important.Inside of this assembly has to be clean so's the coupler can ride up and down.  So I gotta weld from one side.Fill the bevel, then add a reinforced/built up fillet.  This makes up for the welds I can't add to the other side of the plate."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Sandy, the last 2 posts were for Geezerbill"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Ain't about the size of our balls guys, it's about understanding what we're doing.  I'm wrong more than I'm right, but I learn from it.  Lots of times I argue myself right back to where I started, and find out I had a bad argument."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammAbsolutely.I'm talking about the two sided fillet that buries some slag from the first fillet.  Not a bad thing, but it is the real deal on thin material without some back gouging.  But like you, and I, have said..........proper sized throats will make for a good two sided weld
Reply:I've read about throat size, and cracking from shrinkage.  It makes sense.  Larger the amount of material that's cooling, and shrinking, the higher risk of cracking."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I enjoyed this tonight,, and I hope I didn't make any enemies.  I'm way past messing with people for the fun of it.  I just like talking out all the possibilities."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:More is not necessarily bad, less is not necessarily bad . In between too little and too much is where all the discussions and cussins are at. "The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:Bevel and dig mofos. That is all.Powcon 300st (my favorite)Miller Goldstar 600ssLincoln Idealarc 400/400Miller 12vs2 LN25'sMiller Deltaweld 302Miller Bobcat 250 G EFIMiller Bobcat 225d Plus (Dropped a valve, up soon)Everlast 255ext (ordering soon!)
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammWhere I can't get to the other side to weld, the bevel is important.Inside of this assembly has to be clean so's the coupler can ride up and down.  So I gotta weld from one side.Fill the bevel, then add a reinforced/built up fillet.  This makes up for the welds I can't add to the other side of the plate.
Reply:CJP = Complete joint penetration.PJP = Partial Joing penetration. These are terms defined in AWS docs.   As I understand it, a typical T-joint is a PJP, since the fusion is only supposed to go a fraction of an inch into the vertical and horizontal members.   The filet provides the strength by fusing to the surfaces of both plates and providing a cross-section equivalent to the members being joined. A CJP uses bevels or a really strong arc to ensure that the metals are fused along 100% of what would have been the contact area.   Open root welds, for instance, do not melt the two members together, but instead melt each member to the filler which fills the gap.DanP.S.  There is nothing odd about one poster providing for 1/2 the content of the thread.   It's quite common when someone is really trying to understand what's going on.  I've also seen several moderators and long time posters do it.  ----------------------------Measure twice.  Weld once.  Grind to size.MIG:  Lincoln SP100 TIG/STICK:  AHP Alphatig 200X
Reply:May be some one should notify all those pipe welders, they are wasting a lot of time beveling their pipe. To save time, they should just butt them together, and slap a big weld around the outside of the pipe. I'll bet they will be relieved not to have to worry about proper reenforcement on the inside of the pipe. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Ill pull out my aws books later and showwhy bevels are stronger. People saying more surface area are wrong. Biggest leg length or throat equaling thethickest material. After that you will create a notch eeffect and have stress flow lines that do not flow smoothly.
Reply:While this beveling may be needed on a 3/4" or heavier beam to an even heavier plate it is hardly needed on the beam and 1/2" plate mentioned. All you are accomplishing is distortion and extra heat on the plate. Butt it up and weld all sides and call it good.
Reply:enjoyed the comments,  one question please from someone who has never worked with that size material.  in the early pictures CEP uses a wedge to create a large to me gap.  does this weaken the joint by only having weld supporting the weight as opposed to direct metal to metal with a bevel,  thanks to all.........clifton
Reply:I've had the engineers ok an I beam weld procedure where only one side of the flange could be welded due to poor access. The end result was a bevel and full pen weld on one side of the flange. I've also welded many I beam stiffeners this way.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPIf I want a beam to stay put, I bevel, and gap. For a full pen weld.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammare you ever assured it's full pen without back gouging
Reply:OP, What is the application? A static load or something subject to cyclic loading? Will you be using the 180 mig in your sig? Either way when you're using your mig switch it to self-shielded flux core nr-211mp. Its good practice. If its going to have stress on it other than straight up and down probably better with your machine to bevel it and really burn it in.  Get rid of that mill scale, you are grinding it anyway. It doesn't take long to put a bevel on 1/4'' material. Do you have pics of your welds?  If you are a half decent welder I don't see the problem for just going for it.   I remember doing a job in a sawmill maybe 3 1/2 years ago. This drive had ripped out and it was running a 100'x 20' wood transfer decks. It was a hard weld to get to the bottom  and weld too to the top as well, but the top was a heavy radius edge to the edge of a plate, so I could weld a lot of passes in the top, and a single pass on the bottom (overhead). I poured the rod to the top because I was running out of time and got the joint filled to flush and one hot mofo pass to the bottom, I was a little worried cause it wasn't the best looking welds, I took my one uncle who was there and asked him to look at it and tell me what he thought, I was worried it needed to be perfect because of how much weight it had to pull. He told me "Doug, if a weld like that breaks we have bigger problems". So from then on I always kept in mind if its good enough for the job or purpose its good enough. For the record I could have coped welded your I-beam faster than it took me to type all of that ^.Nothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPMay be some one should notify all those pipe welders, they are wasting a lot of time beveling their pipe. To save time, they should just butt them together, and slap a big weld around the outside of the pipe. I'll bet they will be relieved not to have to worry about proper reenforcement on the inside of the pipe.
Reply:I would use both types depending on different applications. If I want full strength I am going to bevel it.12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:I sold that machine and upgraded to a miller 212. But I would be doing this at a friends shop with forklift access.  Would probably use a miller 252.  I'll try and find how to post some pics up from my phone in a sec.There are going to be 6 beams 10' high for a foundation for a storage room in a warehouse.The contractor did not want to deal with the steel. I was gonna have the 12"x12" steel plates laser cut and weld those onto the I beams to anchor to the floor. It's for my brothers wear house. Nothing fancy and not going to hold anything real heavy. Just want to find the best and safest way of doing the job.