Distance for welding HF to affect electronic devices?

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In a garage attached to a house?   Welding going on across the street?  I read the good posts on how to cut down on the intensity of external HF by using better grounds, but I'm just wondering how far the welder has to be to not affect cell phones, computers, etc?Last edited by Tanbark; 02-25-2015 at 07:14 PM.
Reply:I welded in a 30,000 sq. ft. shop where we only used HF. There were 12 of us and we were all in one corner of the shop, and none of us ever had problems with phones or ipods. Some guys used radios and the HF would mess with the reception, but that was easily fixed with a homemade antenna made out of 4043 wire. I had my phone and ipod in my pocket everyday and neither of them were ever harmed or damaged."If you ain't making mistakes, it means you aren't learning anything."
Reply:I have used two inverter welders, DC stick, and both kick off my DSL modem in the house every time I weld in my shop which is about 130 feet from the house.  Both welders have HF hot start.  After welding, if I need to use the computer online, I have to power off-power on my DSL modem.  Everything is fine until I weld again.  There is no problem with the phone system and it is part of the DSL/Voice wiring.There is a thread here somewhere here on WW about EMF and other HF interference.  One cause offered was that it might be EMF affecting electronics, another was interference through the ground wiring.  In my case, I doubt EMF is the cause due to the distance, but the ground wiring explanation is a likely cause.  Beyond that, the thread had several suggestions regarding what to ground and where...
Reply:There is not going to be a simple answer, it depends on too many factors.  I have an attached garage, and the only problem is with AM radio, which it just wipes out.  I have DSL also.  As far as the guy having problems with kicking off the DSL modem, I would look at grounding, and routing for the wires.   Inverter welders will be putting a lot of noise in the power line.  I would guess that the inverter welders might trip his DSL even without HF.   I have a transformer welder with HF, a different story.   The shop should have its own ground rod, as I understand it.  Maybe the phone wiring runs parallel to the power feed for the shop, or too near the welder.   I would consider RF filters for the DSL power, and perhaps for the phone/DSL line as well.  RF problems are not the easiest things to track down, let alone predict, a lot of trial and error.Sculptures in copper and other metalshttp://www.fergusonsculpture.comSyncrowave 200 Millermatic 211Readywelder spoolgunHypertherm 600 plasma cutterThermal Arc GMS300 Victor OA torchHomemade Blacksmith propane forge
Reply:My Syncrowave 350lx only affects AM radio.  Welder is in my basement.30+ yrs Army Infantry & Field Artillery, 25 yrs agoMiller 350LX Tig Runner TA 210, spool gunLincoln 250/250 IdealArcESAB PCM 500i PlasmaKazoo 30"  vert BSKazoo 9x16 horiz BSClausing 12x24 lathe20T Air Press
Reply:Originally Posted by shortfuseI have used two inverter welders, DC stick, and both kick off my DSL modem in the house every time I weld in my shop which is about 130 feet from the house.  Both welders have HF hot start.  After welding, if I need to use the computer online, I have to power off-power on my DSL modem.  Everything is fine until I weld again.  There is no problem with the phone system and it is part of the DSL/Voice wiring....
Reply:I dont have a HF welder yet. What I would like to know is; what frequency or frequencies do HF welders generate. Does anybody know?
Reply:Originally Posted by InsanerideI dont have a HF welder yet. What I would like to know is; what frequency or frequencies do HF welders generate. Does anybody know?
Reply:Sounds good MDave.  Im guessing different brands have different range but Im mostly interested in the MILLER/Airco frequency.
Reply:TanbarkIf the DRO on a mill is not properly grounded HF can/will take it out.Opus
Reply:Originally Posted by rafergusonThere is not going to be a simple answer, it depends on too many factors.  I have an attached garage, and the only problem is with AM radio, which it just wipes out.  I have DSL also.  As far as the guy having problems with kicking off the DSL modem, I would look at grounding, and routing for the wires.   Inverter welders will be putting a lot of noise in the power line.  I would guess that the inverter welders might trip his DSL even without HF.   I have a transformer welder with HF, a different story.   The shop should have its own ground rod, as I understand it.  Maybe the phone wiring runs parallel to the power feed for the shop, or too near the welder.   I would consider RF filters for the DSL power, and perhaps for the phone/DSL line as well.  RF problems are not the easiest things to track down, let alone predict, a lot of trial and error.
Reply:Originally Posted by bead-boyHave you tried running the DSL modem off of a battery powered 110volt power source to isolate it while welding?  Probably don't need to as it sounds like you are already convinced the source of the problem is coming through the powerline and not RF, but it would be a good test to verify that.
Reply:Originally Posted by shortfuseAdding a battery operated power supply would be a PIA.  Suffice to say, it's not a major problem just a nuisance.  Easy to simply power cycle the modem if the red light is on. And yes, I think the welder is far enough away from the shop that the interference is in the wiring.
Reply:My work radio is maybe 15' feet from my work station, and it doesnt just mess with FM/AM either, it'll cause a loss of sound until the arc is established I've noticed, even with bluetooth or an auxiliary cordMiller Spoolmate 200 w/t S-52 WirefeederMM 211'09 Miller Trailblazer 302
Reply:Originally Posted by bead-boyActually I meant just using something like this for 5 minutes just one time while you weld (as a test).
Reply:Originally Posted by shortfuse The power does go through a Tripp Lite surge protector/UPS but I will have to check to see if it contains an RF filter.
Reply:Originally Posted by rafergusonIf you have a UPS connected to the DSL modem, just unplug the UPS.   If the interference in coming down the power line it should stop.   This is similar the the suggestions of using a battery and a DC to AC converter.  In both cases you have isolated your DSL modem from the AC power line.
Reply:I have 2 modems, 3 flat screens, 2 computers 3 cell phones, a wireless phone system an ADT wireless alarm system and a new car and truck all within 10 to 100 feet of were I do all my welding and testing of plasma cutters and welders and have NO problem with HF affecting anything.If you have a problem then call in a GOOD certified electrician or the power company and have your system tested. The good thing is they will find out what the problem is, the bad thing it may end up costing you a $hit load of money to have the hole house or shop rewired.www.georgesplasmacuttershop.comPlasma Cutter and Welder Sales and Repairs--Ebay storeTec.Mo. Dealer Consumables for the PT and IPT torch's
Reply:The house and shop were built to code 10 years ago, so the wiring "should" be up to snuff, done by a master electrician.  The good thing is that...to go in the house, press the modem power button off, then on, costs no $$ just a little inconvenience.  I merely posted my situation to see if any others had a similar problem with their welding and electronics.Thanks to all who had suggestions!
Reply:Bead-boy suggested that you unplug the UPS from the wall so that it runs the modem off the internal battery.  That should give you 10 to 15 minutes to power up the welder to see if it trips the modem.The problem may be in the actual phone line itself.DSL modems work by using frequencies from 10 kHz to above 1 MHz.   They work sort of like old dial up modems in that they communicate with a modem at the phone company (or ISP).   When you power it on, the modems talk to each other to determine the exact frequencies that they will be using and they synchronize their signals.  In the jargon, that's called "training".   If there is a lot of noise, the modems find that they can no longer communicate and try to re-establish the connection (re-train) using different frequencies.My old DSL modem was not able to retrain when the ISP's modem was impacted by a power blip.   I had to power cycle it to make it start the initiation sequence properly.   This is what it sounds like you are experiencing.   My newer DSL modem retrains quickly and has been problem free.It's quite possible that the phone line is much closer to your welder or your welders' electrical circuits than you think.   A phone line that has no phone connected to is often a very efficient antenna.   If you find that welder and phone line are right next to each other, you can re-route the phone line or move the welder.Dan----------------------------Measure twice.  Weld once.  Grind to size.MIG:  Lincoln SP100 TIG/STICK:  AHP Alphatig 200X
Reply:Thanks to all, for the replies and thoughts.  Do I understand right, that IF i'm getting interference from a Lincoln transformer TIG, a copper ground rod connected to the machine case, might solve it?
Reply:Originally Posted by dbstooBead-boy suggested that you unplug the UPS from the wall so that it runs the modem off the internal battery.  That should give you 10 to 15 minutes to power up the welder to see if it trips the modem...........Dan
Reply:My memory says, The HF used in TIG welders is around 2 mhz.You do need a local ground rod, connected to the welder case and to the welding table.Once of the best grounding instructions is in the Miller Syncrowave owners manual.Go the millers web site and down load a manual.