Interesting 7014 observation

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While most of my welding out here on the farm is with either 7018AC or 6011 (for old dirty rusty stuff), I continue to be fascinated by 7014 and its roller-coaster reputation. Today I fiddled a bit with it in the shop and tried something that turned out pretty interesting.7014 is described as a low or low-to-medium penetrating rod, depending on where you look. In any case, there seems to be a consensus that 7018 penetrates better, and by all reports, that's probably true.However:  I thought, why couldn't I just turn up the current a bit to compensate for the reportedly "low" penetration?  So I did.Normally, on the typical 1/4" metal I have out here, I would run 1/8" 7018AC and 7014 at about 120-125 amps.  I took a piece of 1/4" plate and dragged out a couple of beads of 7014, turned up to 145 amps.  I thought it would be a mess, but it ran very nicely, and made a beautiful bead, with just a little more spatter than normal, which may have been due to the heavy rust on the plate.  But talk about penetration....  it looked like the bead was going to burn completely through the plate! You could see the puddle "sinking" into the plate, and if I had slowed down even slightly, it would have easily burned clear through. This stuff was running more like hot 6011 than 7014!Now, granted, 145 amps might have been too high - that's another subject - but it does seem to suggest that when using 7014, if you're concerned about lower penetration, you can compensate by running it at slightly higher current, say 135 instead of 125, and easily get penetration matching or exceeding that of 7018. Any comments?Last edited by Ruark; 07-31-2012 at 02:34 PM.-RuarkLincoln 3200HDHobart Stickmate LX235TWECO Fabricator 211i
Reply:If I were you, I'd be real careful what I welded with 7014! I did a little primitive fillet weld testing with 7014, 7018 which had never seen the inside of a rod oven, and 7018 right out of the oven. 7014 broke with 10-blows from a 4-lb hammer. Cold 7018 broke with 18-blows, and hot 7018 broke at 23-blows. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Speaking of lo hy rods.............  I was assured by the engineer dood at Lincoln that the AC version of 7018 had the same properties, strength wise, as the DC version.I'm not sure I believe this, but..................I don't have the literature in front of me, but I recall that the AC version has a lower Charpy rating, have to put that out there without verification.  I know doggone well that the AC version has less penetration, and probably maybe has less admixture of the parent metal due to this.  I wonder if this adversely affects ductility  Because I think your hammer test reflects 7018's very good ductility properties, which I assume are a function of the increased penetration and incorporation of the parent metal.Just a thought"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I rebuke the hammer test. Too many variables. Take and weld out some test samples, cut the strips and bend test them and do a tension test with some of the samples. Otherwise, I say phoooey. I have laid so much 7014 that I think I can do it with my eyes closed and I never once had a real world failure.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:When you do those tests, I would like to see it with the 7014 run 10-15 amps higher than the 7018, to increase penetration.  I'm planning to try some similar tests myself in the next week or so.-RuarkLincoln 3200HDHobart Stickmate LX235TWECO Fabricator 211i
Reply:Originally Posted by Joker11I rebuke the hammer test. Too many variables. Take and weld out some test samples, cut the strips and bend test them and do a tension test with some of the samples. Otherwise, I say phoooey. I have laid so much 7014 that I think I can do it with my eyes closed and I never once had a real world failure.
Reply:7014 penetration is comparable to 7018 in my experience. But then I've only used the former a few times.Let me check my little palm book.......the current range for 1/8" 7014 should be 115-160 A, 140A is reasonable. So you may have been running on the cold side for flat welds.The problem with increasing the current too much is you increase the likelihood of undercut. There's a bit of an art to selecting your electrode size versus the size of the weld required and the thickness of the material. If you're burning through 1/4" at 145A ( which isn't that high in the current range,) you might want to try 3/32" at 115A. Was there a slight gap when you tacked the plates together? I was assured by the engineer dood at Lincoln that the AC version of 7018 had the same properties, strength wise, as the DC version.
Reply:There's a bit of an art to selecting your electrode size versus the size of the weld required and the thickness of the material. If you're burning through 1/4" at 145A ( which isn't that high in the current range,) you might want to try 3/32" at 115A. Was there a slight gap when you tacked the plates together?
Reply:CEP, you've posted those pictures before. Would you mind explaining them to us new guys?-RuarkLincoln 3200HDHobart Stickmate LX235TWECO Fabricator 211i
Reply:Not much to explain, your basic welding tests. See if I can get enough pictures loaded so you can see the process. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Thanks, CEP - don't put yourself out.  I'm main curious what that thing is in the last picture.-RuarkLincoln 3200HDHobart Stickmate LX235TWECO Fabricator 211i
Reply:Primative, yes. I got it.Now do the tensile test. I am going to guess that some guys work in an industry where they only use certain stuff. That could account for why you never heard of it. I went to Fullerton Junior College in California. We burned tons of 7014. I am not saying that with an attitude or sarcasm. I am just guessing that we can't be exposed to everything in our lifetime. Sometimes we just do what we do and that's all we do. But I was actually surprised you did the bend test. Kudos for that one! while I have the capability, I don't know that I would have done it for some jacknut on the internet. lol.Now you made me think of something else so I am going to start another thread for it. Thanks!Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:"I'm main curious what that thing is in the last picture". I'm pretty sure he welded up the pieces in the first pic then cut them into two, then bent each one into a U, one from the face side and one from the root side whic h is what you see in the last pic.Last edited by bigb; 08-02-2012 at 12:31 AM.Miller Challenger 172Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150Miller Maxstar 150 STLVictor 100CVictor JourneymanOxweld OAHarris O/ASmith O/A little torchNo, that's not my car.
Reply:Originally Posted by bigb"I'm main curious what that thing is in the last picture". I'm pretty sure he welded up the pieces in the first pic then cut them into two, then bent each one into a U, one from the face side and one from the root side whic h is what you see in the last pic.
Reply:Originally Posted by RuarkWe're kinda getting off-topic here. I wasn't welding anything, I just turned up the current to see how much difference it made in penetration. .
Reply:prints call for 70xx to be used. i use 7014 on bar joists at about 200 amps. i use it to weld studs also
Reply:The only difference between the two is the composition of the flux. I have not used much 7014 but I did notice that it needed to run hotter than 7018 of the same size. I actually have never understood why they make both except for some of the specific jobs that require it. If I had a choice I would run 7018.
Reply:Originally Posted by HCFThe only difference between the two is the composition of the flux. I have not used much 7014 but I did notice that it needed to run hotter than 7018 of the same size.
Reply:Originally Posted by beamwalker i use 7014 on bar joists at about 200 amps.
Reply:I ran 7014 for years in my dads trailer factory. We also made axles for another trailer company and they were 7014 except the spindles were welded with 7018. Got a good taste of in right out of high school. I can smell 7014 burning a long distance away...BobBob WrightSalem, Ohio  Birthplace of the Silver & Deming Drillhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbend10k/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sawking/1999 Miller MM185 w/ Miller 185 Spoolmate spoolgun
Reply:I was always told that 7014 was a dirty rod or made to use on dirty metals. Like rusty, painted or galvanized metals.  And that 7018 was for clean metals.I used to work for a company that made exterior panels made of galvanized steel frames with natural stone mechanically attached (similar to pre cast panel systems). In the field we weren't allowed to grind off the galvanizing, we simply ran 7014 for the first pass and then capped it with 7018. All of our welds were never more than partial pen. and they were always inspected. Big Jeremy
Reply:I have been farming since 1973 and switched to 7014 from 6011 about 1980. I only had a lincoln 225 ac welder. You have to run 130 amps and on thicker stuff multiple passes, but I have only had one weld failure and that was when trying to weld 6150 to mild steel. They always broke under and beside the welds.
Reply:Very nice discussion and information on the E7014 rods, I haven't tried this rod yet and from the replies gathered, can this rod be a better substitute for the E6013 rods. Since both are considered low to medium penetration, the E7014 has more tensile strength compared to the other one.HMMMM, maybe I'll get some 5 lbs at amazon of this E7014 and find out for myself its difference from the other rods that I usually use.Maybe we can get more inputs/information from guys who have been using this welding electrode !!
Reply:Last month, I experimented one weekend on I think they were 5/16" mild steel plates with the Blue Demon branded E6010 rods (root pass) followed by E7014 rods for the cap.  Both worked for me at 150-160 amps, using my Everlast PowerArc 200 inverter stick.  I did not change the amperage, because both rods' specs fell within my usage amperage of 160.  But I will not be using it again for another couple of weeks, to finish a project.  I'm sure there are probably better quality than Blue Demon's, but they are affordable.  I'll post photos in a few weeks on my next use of the E7014.  I like the 7014.Agape GuyEverlast Power I-MIG 200 (dual voltage)Everlast PowerArc 200 stickHarbor Freight Titanium 125 Easy FluxHypertherm Powermax 30Way too many power tools
Reply:I like the way 7014 runs but I am having a terrible problem of slag inclusion on flat welds.  Horizontal welds seem to be just fine.  I may be running it too cold.  I usually use 3/32" Airco or Lincoln 7014 rods at around 70 to 100 amps DCEN.  Any ideas?Lincoln lists 3/32" as AC preferred at 80-100 amps.On DC 75-95 amps.Did you drag it with the flux on the plate? If not you are very likely long arcing. It's designed to drag on the plate, when you break an arc look up inside and you'll see it's recessed quite far - automatic arc gapWhat joint type and metal thickness? Personally, I don't much like it on DC-  I like it best on AC with DC+ as my second choice.Dave J.EDIT:  I probably shouldn't say "designed to drag" - I like it best turned up hot enough to drag on the plate.  I believe it's designed that way.Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 09-10-2013 at 07:21 AM.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Prior to MIG and TIG I've used 7014 on AC exclusively for 30 years. To me it is a fantastic rod. I've used it welding log splitter wedges to beams countless times without one failure so I'm going to say the penetration is adequate. Also welded all my trailers with it. No failures.Millermatic 211Lincoln Precision TIG 225Century 250 MIGLincoln 225 AC Box (sold)I support my local welding store (Amazon, McMasterCarr, Cyberweld, EBay).
Reply:AWS SMAW electrode 'specs':E-XX X XE = electrodeXX = electrode tensile stength, times 1000 psi (ie: 70 = 70,000 psi tensile strength)next X = position spec/requirement (1=all position, 2= horizontal and flat only, etc)last X = current, coating, and usesThere are also chemical/metallurgical requirements that different electrodes classes have to meet, typically the % of carbon, manganese, and silicon (all powerful alloying ingredients) and sometimes other elements as well (nickel, molybdenum, chromium, etc, etc as well as limits on sulfur and phosphorous).  And also some other 'performance' specs/requirements that must be meet in the electrode class (yield strength, elongation, CVN values, etc).7014 = 70,000 psi tensile strength, the "1" indicates all-position, and the "4" indicates use with AC or DC+ or DC- and an iron powder+titania coating and a 'soft' arc and 'light' penetration.  7014 rods do not to meet have any CVN requirements, and thus may or may not have CVN 'properties'.7018 = 70,000 psi tensile strength, the "1" indicates all-position, and the "8" indicates use with AC or DC+ and a low-hydrogen iron powder coating with a 'medium' arc and 'medium' penetration. 7018 rods  do have to meet a minimum CVN requirement of 20 ft-lbs at -20F (other suffix 'modifiers' may call out a different CVN value/temp spec that must be met).1/8" 7014 usually calls out an amperage range of about 100-150 amps, give or take a few amps (also varies a bit if using AC or DC).1/8" 7018 usually calls out an amperage range of 90-160 amps, again give or take a few amps (AC vs DC, exact 'recipe' of 7018 in use, etc).And also remember that many (most??) machines do not have 'certified/calibrated' amperage dials/knobs.  So YMMV right there.  Need/want a little bit more penetration from a rod?  Yeah, turn up the amperage setting a little bit.  Need/want a little bit less?  Turn it down a bit.  Or use a bigger/smaller rod diameter with the corresponding amperage to run that size rod.  Other than that, I got nothing.    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:7014 and 7024 are essentially the same rod except the 7024 has more iron in the flux.  7024 is used quite a bit still.  I don't see 7028 much anymore, but it still out there.  It is the same as the 7018 only more iron in it as well.
Reply:A few quotes from previous posts I would like to add comments to: I'm main curious what that thing is in the last picture.
Reply:I prefer the way 7018 runs out of position vs 7014. The main hold back for 7014 is it has never been an approved code rod for structural or pressure work. That's why I never buy it and never use it. Last winter a guy brought me over his older snow plow truck. The plow frame had broke several times in one location. He had welded it several times with 7014. Each time it was welded with 7014 the welds broke in short order. I ground out the mess of broken 7014 weld and put in a nice multi pass weld with 7018 on dc+ polarity. The frame never broke again in this location. Granted, I'm an all position ticketed structural welder and the other fellow wasn't.
Reply:Originally Posted by snoeproeI prefer the way 7018 runs out of position vs 7014. The main hold back for 7014 is it has never been an approved code rod for structural or pressure work. That's why I never buy it and never use it.
Reply:Curious as to why 7014 isn't code approvedExperience is something you get right after you need it
Reply:Originally Posted by MWaldenI like the way 7014 runs but I am having a terrible problem of slag inclusion on flat welds.  Horizontal welds seem to be just fine.  I may be running it too cold.  I usually use 3/32" Airco or Lincoln 7014 rods at around 70 to 100 amps DCEN.  Any ideas?
Reply:Originally Posted by Fred sCurious as to why 7014 isn't code approved
Reply:Originally Posted by Agape GuyAs an aside, how do you like the Airco brand 7014 compared to the Lincoln?  I've tried the Lincoln, but not the Airco.
Reply:Originally Posted by Scott Young7014 and 7024 are essentially the same rod except the 7024 has more iron in the flux.  7024 is used quite a bit still.  I don't see 7028 much anymore, but it still out there.  It is the same as the 7018 only more iron in it as well.
Reply:DCEN would be the problem...in part.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldDCEN would be the problem...in part.