Gas/Bottle Dilema? Oxy/Acet or TIG/MIG?

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Help... What would you do?I have welding equipment that I've been unable to use for lack of gas:I have an oxy/acet kit I picked up used that needs both gas cylinders and gas.I also have a small DC TIG (100 amps) / Stick (80 amps) that I picked up used - that to be used for TIG needs an argon cylinder, argon gas and a flow meter/regulator.Further, I have a Lincoln SP-175 (230 volt ac that outputs 130 amps DC) - that could be used for thin (1/8 inch) aluminum if I had a plastic liner, argon cylinder, argon gas and a flow meter/regulator.To use the TIG and Alum MIG, I would need an argon floweter/regulator comes on sale at Princess Auto about every 6 months.Tomorrow Only,Tractor Supply Company (TSC) has a 25% off deal on gas cylinders and gases.I don't want to miss out on this One-Day-Deal because... these prices are real good for here in Canada, better than the LWS.Here are some possibilities:a) Oxy/Acet 1:  Oxygen LD-tank (58cf) and Acet B-tank (40 cf) with gases = $313orb) Oxy/Acet 2: Oxygen Q-tank (83 cf) and Acet WQ-tank (60 cf) with gases = $446and/orc) Argon: LD-tank (58 cf) with gas = $190However, I'm not made of money just now...What I'd like to know is:1 Where would you put the priority - on the oxy/acetylene (torch) or the argon (Tig/Mig)?2 If going Oxy/Acetylene, would you chose set up a) or b) ?Any suggestions, guidance, recommendations?Thanks...Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:I don't know about Tractor Supply, but my LWS will let me exchange gases as long as I'm staying in the same size. I've swapped acet cyl for mig gas, mig for argon and argon for an extra O2 on occasion. The only issue I've ever run into was the very few times they didn't have a comparable cylinder size. In that case I made sure to get in writing that I had exchanged a larger cyl for a smaller one because they didn't have a matching size. Because I know the counter guy by name, I've never had the issue swapping back up to the correct size, but then usually I only needed the "spare" cyl for a week at most. In fact one time he just gave me the next size up and told me not to worry about the bigger cyl, since they never send him the small ones like he asks for anyways. (One of the benifits of getting to know your LWS guys).The down side to this is you can only use one or the other, say you swap out your O2 cyl for mig gas. You can't OA cut until you swap back. But you might be able to do this still if you swapped the acet cly instead and ran propane to cut for a while. In fact you could drop to just one cyl if you ran propane to heat, braze/solder and cut (no Oxy fuel welding with propane) and an O2 cyl that you swap for mig/tig. Propane grill cyl are usually found regularly on trash days if you look for a short bit.The other issue is you may have to swap out cyl that still have gas in them. Need 100% argon to do tig, but still have 40cf of mig gas in an 80cf cyl? Well you'll loose whatever gas was left. With small cyl thats usually not a big deal, since you go thru gas quickly, however with 100cf+ cyl you might end up swaping out nearly full cyl if you have to have the other gas NOW!.CL is your friend. I've picked up 4 or 5 small 40 cf "B" sized acet cyl's and a couple small O2 and mix cyl's from time to time. I really don't "need" 4 "B" cyl's of acet, but at close to the cost of a fill, ( last one I got was for $15 full) I've got a cyl I can swap out if need be, or sell to someone else for a small profit..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Forget about gas until you can comfortably afford to buy it. Get a roll of .030 or .035 flux cored wire for the little Lincoln and get busy.StephenMillermatic 251Miller Syncrowave 200Miller 30A SpoolgunHypertherm Powermax 30Etc., etc., etc.............Cancer Sucks!
Reply:DSW, you have a lot of experience and I've always found your posts to be credible.  However, I don't want to get into swapping tanks.  Craig List used tanks are trouble enough in the USA, here it is far worse!  I prefer TSC over the local welding supply stores because:- No HAZMAT charges- Better hours: open 8am to 6pm Mon-Wed & Sat, 8am - 9pm Thurs & FriGoinssr, I MIG steel all the time with CO2 gas (see the bottle on the back on my red Lincoln); I left flux core behind three years ago.I'm still not getting answers to my questions.Take the questions one at a time... oxy/acet or Tig/Mig?Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:"Take the questions one at a time... oxy/acet or Tig/Mig? "Your MIG is too small to be useful on aluminum, while OA can weld whatever you wish (with an acetylene cylinder), cut, and heat.Assuming poverty, I'd do what I actually did and get a propane cutting tip, an oxygen cylinder, and use the torch kit for heating and cutting. Propane BBQ cylinders are cheap, often free, and convenient for portable use since they can be sloshed around in transport without ill effect.I'd then get an argon cylinder for the TIG since you have a CO2 cylinder for the MIG.Use those to make money for more equipment, such as an acetylene cylinder if desired.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VI'm still not getting answers to my questions.Take the questions one at a time... oxy/acet or Tig/Mig?
Reply:Originally Posted by goinssrForget about gas until you can comfortably afford to buy it. Get a roll of .030 or .035 flux cored wire for the little Lincoln and get busy.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmallYour MIG is too small to be useful on aluminum, while OA can weld whatever you wish (with an acetylene cylinder), cut, and heat...get a propane cutting tip, an oxygen cylinder, and use the torch kit for heating and cutting...I'd then get an argon cylinder for the TIG since you have a CO2 cylinder for the MIG.
Reply:If you want to do aluminum, get a spool gun capable mig, or an ac tig.  Anything else is an excersize in futility.  None of this is cheap, but welding aluminum is not a poor mans hobby.  You gotta pay to play, plain and simple.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:"Now I Know Why Lions Eat Their Young"Just kidding Rick,If you are going to be welding you have got to have O/A, gotta have it.And you gotta graduate from those small bottles because your going to get to a point where it is not practical, and frustrating, I can see it already.Don't know what the DC inverter is worth, but if you have to, sell it to another student friends to put towards your tig.How much you willing to spend?
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick V- OK, go for the larger acetylene cylinder WQ 60cf and the larger oxygen cylinder Q 83cf.
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33If you want to do aluminum, get a spool gun capable mig, or an ac tig.  Anything else is an excersize in futility.  None of this is cheap, but welding aluminum is not a poor mans hobby.  You gotta pay to play, plain and simple.
Reply:Hi Rick,With option (b) you could weld, cut, braze, solder and heat right away.With option (c) you could tig right away for less money (if you have the torch).Actually with option (b) you could start welding mild steel (light guage) with the #1 tip and go for a long time between fills. With option (c) and holding you argon to 8-10 cfh you go about 5-6hrs max.I'd prolly get the torch running first, just don't go cut crazy with it. You can do enough things with it you won't get bored.Matt
Reply:Seems that you are the person that an inverter multifunction machine (AC/DC, Tig/Stick Plasma)was made for. If you get a 250 amp machine with a 60 amp cutter, there isn't much you won't be able to weld or cut.This way you can cut with air, tig aluminium and anything else that comes up plus have a very smooth AC/DC stick welder.  You will need at least one cylinder tho.  If it is filled with Argon it will do most anything you will need to do in TIG and you still have the Stick Welding option as well. Out here (West Coast) rental on the 330 cubic foot size is about $90 per year. I was using Lordco which works out well if you happen to need a refill on a Saturday. Unfortunately they put their refill price up by about 45% in one shot, went from $83 to $121 for Argon.Yesterday I found another company, Western Gas. They will refill the big  Argon cylinders for $79 and don't mind if the cylinder is rented from another company.You can do a lot of TIG welding on one 330 cubic foot fill of gas, especially if you use a gas lens. In most cases, the gas lens should allow you to cut down on a gas flow some while giving better shielding etc.
Reply:Thanks for the comments Matt.Yes, it looks like either Oxy/Acet with Victor #4 using acetylene at 10cf/h or TIG using argon 10 cf/h would give me about 6 hours operation.  Refill costs are ~$90 for Oxy/Acet and $45 for TIG.I guess it boils down to what capability I want to add:medium/light Oxy/Acet applications, orvery light DC TIG applicationsI coming to believe that perhaps the Oxy/Acet route does offer greater versatility and more applications than getting my small TIG running would.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Sell the Lincoln 175, The DC Inverter and the O/A Kit and buy a MM211 w/ spool gun.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:used oxy acetylene torch with cutting head & tips, hoses, regs, bottles ($300-500 on craig's list)used XMT 304 CC/CV ($1000-1500)25' 2/0 pair of cables w/ dinse connectors, 300 amp work clamp, generic bernard short stub style stinger ($150-200 new)air cooled 17 size 25' tig torch with gas valve & dinse connector ($150 new)SSC Miller compatible 14-pin 25' foot pedal ($150-175 new)argon reg/flowmeter ($50-100 new)used Spoolmatic 30A spool gun ($400-700)WC24 spool gun controller ($250 new)used Suitcase 12VS with Q300 gun ($600-900)used bottle of argon, 150cf if portable, 250cf if stationary ($100-200)used bottle of 75/25 argon/co2 mix 150cf or 250cf ($100-200)4" roll of 4043 .035" alum mig wire4" roll of 4043 3/64" alum mig wire8" roll of e71t-11 fluxcore self shield wire .045"8" roll of e71t-11 fluxcore self shield wire .035" 12" roll of er70s-6 solid mig wire .035"  1/8" e7018 sticks1/8" e6011 sticks1/16" & 3/32" er70s-2 tig rod1/16" & 3/32" 308l tig rodlow total = $3500, high total = $5000Shop that list and you will be able to do just about everything you can dream of, besides aluminum ac tig.Last edited by DesertRider33; 10-16-2010 at 11:16 AM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Sell the Lincoln 175, The DC Inverter and the O/A Kit and buy a MM211 w/ spool gun.
Reply:It appears to me that you got some good deals on used equipment that was partially complete, but for whatever reason, you won't spend the necessary money to complete any of them and make them actually USEFUL to you.  You're either going to have to decide to pony up and spend the dough, or let it all just sit there collecting dust while you continue dreaming....MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:If you really want to get in to welding Aloominum then you will have to pony up for a decent ac/dc Tig.Yes Mig can weld AL and I love my Passport Plus w/ Spoolgun but it is limited to 16g on the thin stuff and really doesn't put down the Purdy beads- but it isn't the machine for that- but does great for 16g up to 3/16" AL. I could probably push it to 1/4" with Prep but haven't really tried.So Back to the AC/DC Tig because it will allow you to weld thin stock on up- limited only by the machine- My little TA185 is a great little machine- again not cheap though- used I paid $1,350.00If you want to Weld with Oxy/Fuel- then O/A it is- If you just want to Cut/Heat- Oxy/propane will workbut as you have discovered the dern Jugs ain't cheap.I paid $250.00 for mine on CL ( about 7-800 new) and it sits in the corner of the GeerageThink hard about how much you would really use the Kit. I know some here swear that they can't live without one but they are probably a step above Hobby welders.Since you have that little Portable CO2 tank set up I figger you are a level 1 Hobby JediForget Aloominum for now.The Veggie's 2nd recommendation..... buy the jug of Argon and start practicing DC Tig. You can work on technique and still use the Argon down the road if ya get an AC/DC machine.and it is the cheapest route.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33It appears to me that you got some good deals on used equipment that was partially complete, but for whatever reason, you won't spend the necessary money to complete any of them and make them actually USEFUL to you.  You're either going to have to decide to pony up and spend the dough, or let it all just sit there collecting dust while you continue dreaming....
Reply:Well great!  Now you're weldin'.    Have fun with the new torch rig. MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:You might be interested in an update in my decision to go oxy-acetylene cylinders/gas for my oxy-acet kit instead of argon cylinder/gas for my mig/tig rigs.I think I made the right decision.  I have had instruction - just winding up a 10 week course in oxy-acet at the local community college.With the home rig so far I have:a) welded 1/16 to 3/16 inch thick steel with RG45 filler rod (butt, T, lap, corner),b) brazed 1/16 and 1/8 inch thick steel with brass rod and powdered flux (lap), c) welded 1/16 inch stainless steel with SS-TIG filler rod and a special flux.d) welded/brazed 1/16 and 1/8 aluminum using 4047 filler rod and special flux for aluminum (T-joint). [Note: This is a high temp Al-Si filler rod, not a low temp Zn-Al rod.]I've yet to cut with the torch but I expect it will be the same as at the college,For me, the oxy-acet torch fills in a nitch for thin materials.I really like being able to weld/braze aluminum up to 1/8 inch thick; that was difficult with stick - blew holes.  For the thicker aluminum [1/4 inch], I can still use my aluminum stick electrodes.I did have a challenge locating and purchasing (special order) the special fluxes necessary for aluminum and helpful for stainless steel.   Times have changed and most folks use TIG for aluminum and stainless now.  I was lucky to find in stock some 4047 alloy aluminum (12% silicon, melting point 1070-1080F) filler rods as most our LWS carry only the TIG filler rods like 4043 (5% silicon, melting point 1065-1170F).Yeah... this is good. Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Very cool that there was a course on O/A at your local college that got enough support to stay running. DO promote them, it helps in these tough times.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmallVery cool that there was a course on O/A at your local college that got enough support to stay running. DO promote them, it helps in these tough times.Well three years have past since I started this inquiry and... looking back I must say.... for me it was a serious mistake to purchase oxy-acet insted of argon!Only in the past few weeks have I had argon and used it for DC tig on steel and AC tig on aluminum... it was Great!What a waste of 3 years of my time! The number of past applications where I could have used DC tig on steel or stainless or mig with argon on aluminum have far outweighed the actual use I got out of my oxy-acet outfit.  The oxy-acet cylinders/gas cost more too.  Sure I did some aluminum brazing, some steel brazing and some limited 1/16 inch thick steel welding.  I did no oxy-acet cutting - would have been limited to 3/8 inch thick (max 1/2 inch for a short period) anyway.Tig beats the living crap out of oxy-acet for almost every application that crossed my door over the past three 3 years - as a hobby welder.Just my View - 3 Years after the Fact. .... Oxy-Acet =........Tig = Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:All really depends on what sorts of projects you are doing. I've had long stretches where I haven't even looked at my OA set, and then there's times where it seems just about twice a week I need to heat and bend something, loosen a rusty bolt, cut some steel and so on. Same goes with my tig. I break out the tig for thin metal or alum, but other times it just sits and I weld everything with mig or stick..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I ALWAYS vote for O/A. If you do decide to go that route you need Victor FBR-2 (0656-0007) at the regulators(if you're using that kit).No. That wasn't off the top of my head. I just installed a set for a guy and the card is still in my apron.Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Neither!   Here's another opinion of many more to come.....Stick with basics.  A good Mig set up first and foremost.  Dump the oxy/acetylene and opt for oxy/propane (cutting and heating only).  If you have mig, you won't need the acetylene for welding.  It too slow nowadays anyway and tig beats it hands down.  Propane is like 4-5 times cheaper than acetylene.  Oxygen isn't going to break the bank.  Eventually, add tig and a good basic stick machine for the "what iffs" in the welding world.Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life Member