Just how good does a weld have to be?

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I do all the welding for the area powder coater and am almost constantly amazed by the poor quality welding I see. Car frames are some of the worst with the absolute worst being an MG frame. Today it was a "69 Corvette frame. Just totally horrible. I didn't see one acceptable weld on the entire frame. I took pictures of five places, not the worst, just five places close to one another. Check these out. Attached Images
Reply:BobThose are not welds.Opus
Reply:I have decided that while I'll never be to the levels most of you artisans are here, I'm a darn sight better than most of the bird poo I see on here... all thanks to keeping my mouth shut and my ears open around here.
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROBobThose are not welds.Opus
Reply:I'll tell you my opinion, since you asked. There are a zillion bird-poop welds out there that are going to somehow hold on until the end of time. But there's no way of knowing if any particular bird-poop weld is going to be the one that fails and kills somebody, so hedge your bets and make good welds. It takes a person with a lot of self-awareness to know when, "It's good enough, it'll hold," is true, and when it's just making yourself feel good. I've seen some baaaad welds posted on here by people saying, "It ain't pretty, but it'll hold." I think of them every time I am saying that to myself...Everlast PA160-STH... and that's about it!
Reply:That frame was done before Stevie Wonder decided to take up piano. You really can't expect high quality on cheap USA imports. Especially a car that used shredded recycled hula hoops to form the body.Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Ummm,I have a '69 Vette. Are those really factory welds?Sounds like I'll be lying under it with a stinger.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Looks like they let the local high school kids learn to weld on those
Reply:Jonathan Livingston sea gull got a welding jobNot referring to you JamesBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:I used to work in a car factory in another life, one of my jobs was to teach the new guys how to weld. It was pretty common for new guys just employed as welders to not even know what a weld looked like, then we would give them someone's soon to be brand new car to learn on At the time I was 19 and a self taught welder, I got the trainers job because I was hands down the best welder in our section, and I barely knew what I was doing!Cheers Andrew
Reply:I've seen frame welds like that on GM frames for years. I've restored, junked, and rebuilt cars for over 25 years and the weld quality (or lack of) on the frames has always baffled me. I was told once that they were robot welded,but I don't believe it.
Reply:That one on the long frame section looks like they didn't even let up on the trigger just pulled back swung to the next spot and pushed her back in again.
Reply:Looks scary to me!Miller Maxstar 200 strMontgomery Ward 250 AC/DC
Reply:Those pix are a mixed bag of factory production: #4 and #5. The #2 pic is definitly a body shop repair. The others ???Considering the amount of load on 99.9999% of car frames, as long as the parts don't move against each other, it's called good enough.So, yes, there are plenty of crappy attempts at welding that will work fine for the life of the equipment.That is why we have X-ray examination of job-critical welds. Why we test (and re-certify) the people that make those job-critical welds.Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:Originally Posted by vpd66I've seen frame welds like that on GM frames for years. I've restored, junked, and rebuilt cars for over 25 years and the weld quality (or lack of) on the frames has always baffled me. I was told once that they were robot welded,but I don't believe it.
Reply:Hmmmmmm  Scary.......  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Hmm... Factory robots at GM....Back in the 1980's they set up robots to install the rings on pistions. The gaps in each ring have to NOT align with the gaps in any other ring. So the robot was programmed to rotate the piston a precise amount after each ring was installed. Buuuut, when one motor failed half a day's production had all of the rings perfectly aligned with each other and many engines were built with these 'faulty' piston assemblies. Many dealers had to pull the pistions because of "poor performace" and "excessive oil cusumption" on brand-new engines. So much for 'perfect' robots?Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:Originally Posted by mike837goSo much for 'perfect' robots?
Reply:Brain surgeons test once, just before they graduate. Welders, however, test for every job they will ever do, for every company, procedure and position. The problem is, welders are for sale at Walmart. Brain surgury tools are not...
Reply:Just like any machine, manually operated or programmed, its only as good as the person operating it or programming it.  I see it day in and day out in aerospace, guys with years of experience programming the CNC equipment but its beyond clear they have never run, let alone turned on a mill in their life.
Reply:Thats why you dont buy a car that was built on Monday or Friday. I've seen worse welds on a 69 Chevelle..tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Weld quality hardly matters if the car chassis was designed not to rely on it. The frame is still intact over 40 years later isn't it? That's sounds pretty damned good to me.It's all in the design.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Originally Posted by vpd66I've seen frame welds like that on GM frames for years. I've restored, junked, and rebuilt cars for over 25 years and the weld quality (or lack of) on the frames has always baffled me. I was told once that they were robot welded,but I don't believe it.
Reply:Damn all!  After seeing those welds on the vette, I don't think I'll ever knock another harbor freight weld on their engine cranes again!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by BobJust how good does a weld have to be?Originally Posted by OPUS FERROThose are not welds.
Reply:Someone once said a weld doesn't have to be any better than what is required to do the job. In other words there are lots of welds that are really just tacks to lock something together or to prevent any movement in a joint which is already strongly held mechanically. For example a rebar tacked to another rebar only needs to hold the two pieces together until the concrete locks them in place, and is usually done by a tie wire anyway.On the other hand most people reading here are aspiring, hobbyist or professional welders and the majority of us take pride in our work and want to produce welds another welder would look at and say nice work. We have high standards for ourselves and tend to overdue our work somewhat since time is not critical in most cases but our pride and reputation is not negotiable.  And it is true we tend to overweld stuff.  How many welds get tigged when a mig or stick weld would be perfectly ok?  How many of us weld all around a joint when intermittent beads would be fine?  How many multipass welds get made when a single pass would do the job?  The factory production welder whether it is a robot or a human is expected to weld exactly as designed, no more, no less. There is no time for re-work, if it passes inspection, out the door it goes. Remember the manufacturer doesn't build a product to last a lifetime, just long enough to outlast the warranty. There is constant pressure to reduce time per weld so production goes up or less welders are required reducing equipment and labor costs. That's why we see the the crappy welding on trailers, car frames, metal furniture etc.We might pass on buying a product if the welds look like crap, or we might buy it if the price is right and redo the crap welds ourselves.  Mr. average consumer just looks at price and the shiny paint job so that's why manufacturers don't spend money on nice welding jobs, just has to meet a price point and unfortuneately welds are not a priority.There is no answer, just reality."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:My philosophy: "Every weld done in a situation where strength is not an issue is an opportunity to practice for when it is".MillerMatic 252, HTP 221 w/cooler, Hypertherm PM45, Lincoln IdealArc 250 AC/DC"I'd like to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible"
Reply:Keep on trucking !!!MillerMatic 140Longevity 42i
Reply:Wow, crap doesn't cover it, lol could be in the late 60's Mig machines sucked poor pen, wire hang ups and oh yea POT , one hand on the doobee and one on the gun, I miss the good old days, lolol only kidding
Reply:Like I said, this isn't the worst. The worst was an MG Midget frame. It looked even worse than this. Good enough, maybe, is not good to look at.
Reply:Part of the safety design. Those welds are designed to pop loose and let the frame crumple in collisions. "The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:One of the things I've found since landing here is that welders here are a different breed. I'm not saying you're obsessive/compulsive or find yourselves with a need to tap your fingers exactly 3-times or do everything else an odd- or even-even number of times but perfection matters to most people here and that is what helps people like me progress. For that I thank you all and offer this bit of the "other side of the coin".I thought it was a crack up.
Reply:One thing about most of us is we hate see a job done half assedMy grandfather and my father always told me it take just as long to do the job right as it does to do it wrong and will take you time again to fix itBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:A old farmer once told me "if that wagon will go to the field and bring back a load of hay/cornthen it's done its job" . sometimes i think we forget that most people wouldn't know a goodweld from bad - they just want it done. And when it's covered with 30 pounds of sheet metal,cow poo, bird dropings does it really make a difference as long as it gets the job donejust my 02¢The main thing is not to panic or get excited Bobcat 250, X-Treme 12VS,  MM211Meltabo, Milwaukee,Porter Cable,Dewalt,MakitaVictor O/A, Ingersoll-RandEvolution Rage2, 40 amp PlasmaLincoln 225 AC/DC
Reply:So what, it was programmed by a human.  Human fcked up not the robot... Originally Posted by mike837goHmm... Factory robots at GM....Back in the 1980's they set up robots to install the rings on pistions. The gaps in each ring have to NOT align with the gaps in any other ring. So the robot was programmed to rotate the piston a precise amount after each ring was installed. Buuuut, when one motor failed half a day's production had all of the rings perfectly aligned with each other and many engines were built with these 'faulty' piston assemblies. Many dealers had to pull the pistions because of "poor performace" and "excessive oil cusumption" on brand-new engines. So much for 'perfect' robots?
Reply:So...when people talk about how great the quality was on American-made products back in the day....are they basically just repeating a myth?1969 Chris Craft Roamer 46 RefitMiller TB280 w/Spoolmatic 30a2016 AHP AlphaTIG 200XAncient Millermatic 35Zeny Cut50 plasma cutter
Reply:IMO the late 60's thru all of the 70's were a tough time for US auto buyers... What the big three couldn't screw up the gubmint did. I saw my first practical robots in the late 70's (and none were for welding) so that's out, SCR fired migs gained wide use in the mid 70's, prior to that were the tapped/resistance migs & ran really good when set right - so power supply is mostly out... That leaves the welding hand or the Monday & Friday cars thing.That was also a time when dealers undercoated everything and added to the delivery price which caused some complaints... S'pect this is why. It has lasted some 44-5 years though. Matt