Buying argon from Praxair. What a PITA.

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I'm a newbie and wanting to learn TIG. I go to a "Praxiar welding supply store" to buy some argon. I inquire about renting a tank of argon and get told they can't sell me anything unless I have an account with them. I'm thinking "Must be because I want to rent and the nonsense that goes with renting stuff". So I ask if I can just buy a tank. He says "yes". So I'm like "Ok I'll just buy the tank then". He then again tells me he can't sell me the tank unless I have an account set up with them and it takes minimum of 24 hours to set up the account. I asked "So there's no way I can get a tank today?" He say "No, it takes 24 hours to set up an account. You can then leave a $200 deposit and we will call you".Whaaaaaaaa??????So I know of another welding supply store that's a little farther, but it's a mom and pop shop. I bail from Praxair location. I'm starting to wonder if all welding supply shops are like this?I go to the mom and pop shop and walk in thinking I'm wasting my time, and ask the same question I asked at Praxair. "Do you sell tanks of argon?" The lady says "Yes, what size you looking for?" I tell her what size, she tells me "Sure, we have that. That will be $$$ for the tank and $$ for the fill. I throw down my credit card and wait for her to tell me I need to set up an account, she rings it up. She then gives me my receipt and tell me to pull around back and they will have it ready. I pull around back and a guy comes out with my tank, ties it down in the back of the truck and I'm down the road....no account needed, no credit check, no blood sample needed. That was easy. What is Prazair's problem? They don't like money or something? I'll never do business with any Prazair location. Obviously they don't like money, or at least something is wrong with mine. Mom and pop shop will get my business now.Last edited by Rockinar; 04-13-2015 at 07:15 PM.
Reply:Depends a lot on the actual location. The shop I use changed over to Praxair about a year or so ago. Still same counter guy, still get the same great service. I won't say I've had that experience at all their locations, but most have been pretty good.I will admit I have an account. It's a simple cash account I opened years ago. It does simplify things greatly. On occasion I used to borrow large cylinders from a friend who has a shop in our area, often if we needed gas on the weekend. Monday I'd swing by and get it exchanged before we'd return it to him. Without an account, it could be a hassle if the guy at the counter didn't know me. With an account, they just charge me and I'm out the door. I didn't have to leave $200 for the account however. Just fill out the basic forms including some references and bank info and it got all set up no problem. I have to do that with any number of supply house I deal with..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWDepends a lot on the actual location. The shop I use changed over to Praxair about a year or so ago. Still same counter guy, still get the same great service. I won't say I've had that experience at all their locations, but most have been pretty good.I will admit I have an account. It's a simple cash account I opened years ago. It does simplify things greatly. On occasion I used to borrow large cylinders from a friend who has a shop in our area, often if we needed gas on the weekend. Monday I'd swing by and get it exchanged before we'd return it to him. Without an account, it could be a hassle if the guy at the counter didn't know me. With an account, they just charge me and I'm out the door. I didn't have to leave $200 for the account however. Just fill out the basic forms including some references and bank info and it got all set up no problem. I have to do that with any number of supply house I deal with.
Reply:Hmm I hope I don't run into the same deal. I was told a few hours ago what a tank would cost and a fill, but didn't hear no bull about an account. Hopefully I don't find out the hard way. Thanks for the heads up. PidgeLincoln210mpHobart Handler 125...soldBoat battery and a couple coat hangers
Reply:before you dis Praxair, large companies need the most information as possible where as i know the mom and pop stores sometimes don't even charge tax and don't need names numbers under a certain price. However if that tank (Argon is stable but just for ex.) exploded or killed someone, or damaged property they need information and information that can back up the receipt of purchase. Large companies if sued can get in deep trouble. look at the macdonalds incident with the burnt woman sued them for million dollars? plus if there is a bad incident or bad rep with 1 thing that happened a company of that size can get in deep trouble. Sub brands of Praxair such as prostar, and victor and that, also can get affected i am assuming.I also have had no trouble with praxair. They all seem like straight shooters. However supporting the small businesses is even better!VictorPraxairAir LiquideMillerLincoln Electric
Reply:Setting up an account allows them to account for the cylinder and show it as customer owned instead of a rental. That keeps you from having to prove it's yours every time you come in to exchange it. It also allows the possibility of setting up discounts on the gas and consumables by tying it to your account. Tough to walk in and get discounts without an account.
Reply:They don't what your business. Small individual users are more hassle than they are worth.   The worst in my area is Matheson.  The only one of 7 local welding shops that won't sell me He. Because I don't have a COMMERCIAL account.    I got a list of prices from all the local suppliers for gas.   Matheson had already shut their registers down 15 minutes before closing.  Asked if they could email me.    Got email next day wanting name of business, title etc.   Replied that it was for individual account.   Not a word from them since.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Some suppliers can be a pain in the a$$ for sure. I now go to a ma and pa shop too. No BS just friendly people at a fair price too.
Reply:I've really had no problems with Praxair over the years but it's the same people at the counter and around back whom have always been there. Unfortunately, several of the personal discounts were displaced by corporate policy when Praxair took over the private owned store but there always seems to be a way around that too. Just depends upon vendor and customer disposition I suppose. I do have an account with them but never use credit. As mentioned it's for tracking the tanks I believe and I've had several given to me out of hydro test date, (by farmers) and it costs the test fee and I'm on the road with a replacement full of the gas purchased. When you have an account you can readily walk in with an "Q" tank for instance, and walk out with a "T" cylinder with no problems.As mentioned set up an account. They don't sell the information and it's used only internally. You could be robbing yourself of some viable discounts along the way without one.Thanks,SlobPurveyor of intimate unparalleled knowledge of nothing about everything.Oh yeah, also an unabashed internet "Troll" too.....
Reply:Someone has rocks in their head! Why on earth would they not sell you a cylinder for cash.......nothing to track......it's customer owned.When you need argon you trade out cylinders, pay and go on your way. I think sometimes the people that run these stores feed their ego by the rules they make up.If you WANT a cylinder larger than they sell then yes, you would need an account, even that could be COD. I have an account because I have a leased bulk propane tank. I have had rental cylinders but I own all I have now.I got real lucky that when I first needed welding supplies I made friends with the store manager and after that he took good care of me until he retired.....but then he is a guy that has some common sense and understands that you have to sell product to make money so the company can pay paychecks.
Reply:The bigger a business gets, the less flexibility they have. They also become a target for lawsuits. Cylinders have to be maintained and kept in test, which adds to their cost of doing business. The companies with deeper pockets do a better job at maintaining their assets - from ensuring the cylinder will hold pressure to simply keeping them painted and rust free. The Mom & Pop distributors in my area have cylinders that look like crap. Unless the cylinder you purchase is a Linde, generally you cannot exchange it at Distributor B if you bought it from Distributor A. High pressure cylinders are inherently dangerous and carry a liability for the distributor. The last guy to fill that cylinder accepts its liability. Just because you purchased the cylinder to own doesn't relieve the distributor from the liability.
Reply:Took five minutes over the phone. 300$ for a 330 CF tank and 28$ for the fill.
Reply:Originally Posted by arcflashTook five minutes over the phone. 300$ for a 330 CF tank and 28$ for the fill.
Reply:Corporate bean counters & etc.  My LWS (Arcet) will not sell an owner tank over 80 CF.  I rent a couple bigger tanks and a couple transactions have been cool because I have an "account", meaning a credit card number on file. They traded a couple random tanks for some new CO2 tanks, big whoop. But the counter people are nice. I can appreciate companies who are reluctant to sell quantities of Oxygen, Acetylene and other reactive gasses to folks who drive in there in in Toyota terror trucks (you know, gun mount in the back).  But to ****-block folks who just want to do a job or pursue a hobby at least cost ????"USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:The best reason to set up an account, even if it's a cash account, is to get your pricing locked in. I worked in welding supplies and when you don't have an account, you can be sold the same thing 10 times for 10 different prices. It all depends on the person at the counter. With an account you can negotiate a price for gas and the company will have a record of what you have been paying. There will be price adjustments but without an account, they can charge what ever they feel like. They should be able to set up a cash account in 10 minutes if they sell cylinders. If you are leasing cylinders can take some time to check your credit references. If you put a deposit, you should be able to pick up the cylinder right away. One place I worked had the most ridiculous policy ever! You had to give a deposit that they kept even after your credit references were good. Apparently they had a couple cylinders on lease never get returned. I think it's just a cost of doing business but they lost a lot of sales, especially to rig welders,  because of doing a credit check and having to put a deposit. They did modify their policy but it still turned people off. If you had a good history of paying your account on time they would refund the deposit after 6 month's. Oh and no interest. Ridiculous! What's the sense of doing a credit check if they still require a deposit to cover the cost of every cylinder you lease? A rig with 3 large cylinders, the deposit is close to $1000. This is what happens when you have an accountant as a manager that has no concept at all of the welding industry. They had the best price on gas too but this stupid deposit policy left them dead in the water. They lost thousands in sales because they were basically saying they didn't trust their new customers to pay despite having good credit references.
Reply:The cylinders are assets that belong to the distributor. Even though they can be used for decades and pay for themselves many times over, if they are lost or stolen, they must be replaced with new assets at current prices. The distributor requires a deposit to have some sort of security should the cylinder not be returned. How many of us would give a stranger something of value without some sort of assurance we would get it back, or recoup the value in some way? Sorry, but not me. Some of the major distributors will not allow counter personnel to overstrike prices without authorization. If you can set up an account, you can negotiate rates that will assure you get consistent discounted pricing.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jim in ICTThe cylinders are assets that belong to the distributor. Even though they can be used for decades and pay for themselves many times over, if they are lost or stolen, they must be replaced with new assets at current prices. The distributor requires a deposit to have some sort of security should the cylinder not be returned. How many of us would give a stranger something of value without some sort of assurance we would get it back, or recoup the value in some way? Sorry, but not me. Some of the major distributors will not allow counter personnel to overstrike prices without authorization. If you can set up an account, you can negotiate rates that will assure you get consistent discounted pricing.
Reply:Originally Posted by Welder DaveThe best reason to set up an account, even if it's a cash account, is to get your pricing locked in. I worked in welding supplies and when you don't have an account, you can be sold the same thing 10 times for 10 different prices. It all depends on the person at the counter. With an account you can negotiate a price for gas and the company will have a record of what you have been paying. There will be price adjustments but without an account, they can charge what ever they feel like. They should be able to set up a cash account in 10 minutes if they sell cylinders. If you are leasing cylinders can take some time to check your credit references. If you put a deposit, you should be able to pick up the cylinder right away. One place I worked had the most ridiculous policy ever! You had to give a deposit that they kept even after your credit references were good. Apparently they had a couple cylinders on lease never get returned. I think it's just a cost of doing business but they lost a lot of sales, especially to rig welders,  because of doing a credit check and having to put a deposit. They did modify their policy but it still turned people off. If you had a good history of paying your account on time they would refund the deposit after 6 month's. Oh and no interest. Ridiculous! What's the sense of doing a credit check if they still require a deposit to cover the cost of every cylinder you lease? A rig with 3 large cylinders, the deposit is close to $1000. This is what happens when you have an accountant as a manager that has no concept at all of the welding industry. They had the best price on gas too but this stupid deposit policy left them dead in the water. They lost thousands in sales because they were basically saying they didn't trust their new customers to pay despite having good credit references.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonNot only that, but a few big guys will only "sell" you bottles with their name on the neck ring. Then they legally retain ownership and in reality you are only "leasing" their bottle. No one else will touch it, swap it, fill it, etcetera, but  them.
Reply:Originally Posted by BrianCThat's not true with the local Praxair here. I have an account, wire prices change daily with the three different sales desk employees, you would think it was linked to the gold exchange!
Reply:Another good reason to have an account is so they can easily look up your past purchases and what you paid for the same items. Had some Hutterites come in one time and claimed they bought 44lb rolls of Blueshield MIG wire for $38.00. A quick check of their account showed they hadn't bought any for at least 2 years. The system only went back 2 years but it was obvious they were trying to pull a fast one. The same can work if the guy at the counter is charging you more than you paid in the past. If he wants to argue, get him to look up your previous purchases. None of the bigger welding supplies like Praxair or Air Liquide keep a deposit after your credit references check out. That's the whole idea of the credit checks. They have a legal right to charge you for missing cylinders anyway. Doing credit checks is a waste of time if they keep your deposit until you close your account. No different than if you had to put a deposit to cover the cost of a new vehicle until it was paid off. Cylinder leasing is a cash cow and that's where they make all their money. The cylinders are paid off 1000 of times over in their lifetime. If you purchase larger cylinders, you start saving money after the 3rd year. Some places have a lifetime lease but it's only good for 15 years.
Reply:My local Praxair is pretty sorry to deal with. Dont go there unless there aint any other options. They wanna charge a hazmat fee for the air you breathe while in the store. I do have an account there and Matheson and agree having an account is important and better. Praxair s " best price" is normally higher than the price a person off the street without an account at Matheson will pay. Plus their house brand rods do not weld good and they act like I'm an idiot when the issue is brought up. No offense to the Praxair employees on here but mine is not fit for business.
Reply:In my area we have four LWS. Air Liquide, Linde, Airgas and Praxair. I am only a 'hobbyist', but I have accounts at the first three (listed above) only.  And I like to think I have a good rapport with them. Always pays to be nice to the ones that can help you.  :
Reply:I am a hobby weldor.  I have an account with my LWS and it seems that every time I go in there they surprise me with LOWER prices.  Yes, is said LOWER prices.  Just yesterday (one example of many) I was in there turning in my bottles for argon fill.  I needed some new stick welding gloves so I said do you have some GOOD stick welding gloves for me that are a reasonable price for a hobby-guy?  The counter guy I know (I know all three) gets their locally branded set and asks me will these work for you?  I looked them over / tried them on and they are a VERY good pair of 14" stick welding gloves.  They do NOT have any prices listed on the stock on their shelves so I no idea what they would cost.  I was figuring on paying probably 25 dollars for the pair (they are good!) he said they are $8.00/EIGHT dollars!   Well when we finish all the bottle swaps and he rings the gloves up He says, "Nah, they are $5.50, not eight"!!!  This has been typical of the rural LWS (it's the only LWS within 50-60 miles of me) I have an account with.The moral to this story (for me) is that it has been a good deal every time for me to have an account set up with them.I really have no idea what I am doing.Two Shop Cats (not Bobcats...real cats)Miller DialArc 250 AC/DCScratch-Start TIG SetupMIG 175Plasma CutterO/A