First time stick help

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I've had an old GE 200A welder from the 50s for a while, and finally got the supplies to get it powered and use it for Christmas. We put a 50A outlet right at the breaker box, and wired up a 6 gauge extension cord to power the welder.I've stick welded once before, in a class where we got maybe 30 minutes of practice, and with somebody who knew what they were doing setting up a modern DC capable multi-process machine. In that 30 minutes, I got to the point where I could strike and arc and draw a decent bead fairly consistently. Now that I'm at home, trying it in my backyard with a 60 year old welder, and little clue as to what I'm doing, it is nearly impossible for me to even strike an arc, let alone draw a good bead. I'm hoping somebody can give me a couple of pointers to get me started in the right direction.This is the plate I was welding on. It's some really rusty 1/8" steel plate I found. I constantly felt like I was just burning through it with the 1/8" 6011 I had. You can see the one bead in the middle, right at the end of the weld really gouged into the metal. All of the beads are visible on the other side of the plate, so they were definitely getting pretty far through the plate. The only bead I'm not completely embarrassed by is the cleanest one on the bottom right, which was done with a 3/32" or 1/16" 6013 I had found just stuck inside the welder cart.Most of the welding I did on the 6011 was between 80 and 100 amps as marked on the welder. I seriously doubt it is accurate at all though. Based on the looks of this weld, I'm betting I was running too hot?I thought the 6013 bead came out alright. I definitely had issues keeping a steady arc length and speed on any of the welds, and it shows.Most of the beads I ended up laying were really short, as I had a really hard time keeping the arc steady.I've been read and been told that AC is much harder to strike an arc with, and harder to maintain once you get started. Based on my little experience with DC and AC, I'm definitely noticing a difference. The welder I've got has a fairly high open circuit voltage, 58V, so I figured it wouldn't be too bad, but on the three electrodes I used this morning, I stuck each one probably 20 or 30 times. The welder does have a hot start circuit. I've got no idea if it works or not. Having the switch in one position does seem to make a difference from the other, but it seems backwards of what you would think the On position would be, as having it down seems to make it easier to strike an arc.The one main thing I've noticed about getting the arc started is that it takes a LONG time for the arc to stabilize. A good 2 or 3 seconds. If I don't wait about 2 seconds once I get the arc struck, it frequently ends up killing the arc, or sticking the electrode.The other main thing I realize is probably a big detrimental factor is the fact that I don't have a welding table like I did during the class. To try out the welder this morning, I stacked a sprinkler valve box on another box to get the plate to waist height, and then just freehanded the electrode, with nothing to rest my arms on. I'd like to put together a small welding table eventually, but if I can't weld better without some free-handing, I'm not sure how I would go about putting the table together in the first place.Any suggestions on things I should try changing would be appreciated. It's really frustrating to hardly be able to even strike an arc, and after all the parts I was gifted and the electrical work I did to get things set up, I'd hate to never use any of it because I can't actually get the technique down.
Reply:What amps are you running at? A lot of the time turning the amps up helps the arc stay lit, and prevents sticking of the electrode. A good general rule for 1/8" electrodes is 95-140 amps 3/32 70-100 amps never ran a 1/16 before but I would assume around 40-70 or so amps. The closer you run to the low end of the electrode amperage range the harder it will be to maintain, and strike the arc. Once you get the arc started let the puddle get about 2 to 3 times the width of the electrode and progress forward maintaining a 5 to 10 degree drag angle, and about 1/16" to 1/8" gap between the tip of the electrode and the work piece. When you chip the slag off you want your weld to have a blunted bullet shape ripple in it. If the ripple is sharp and pointy your traveling too fast and need to slow down.I found these on youtube a while ago and I think your should definitely watch them, they are pretty old but have a TON of useful information on arc welding.Lay a bead before we determine its too hot or too cold, those are just bird droppings for now.Last edited by smilexelectric; 12-28-2013 at 03:28 PM.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:Saw your other thread, cool old machine.Slow down, your travel speed is much too fast. Go slow enough to let the bead spread out.On AC, I like 1/8 6013 or 7014. Smooth rods to learn with. Run them about 125-135 amps and lightly drag the flux on the plate. Rod angle about 5-10 degrees off vertical.Good luck, have fun Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:1/8" 6011 on 1/8" plate is doable, but not the easiest for someone new. 6011 is a deep penetrating rod and 95 amps DC is typically about where we set it for students to weld 1/4" to 3/8" plates at the tech school. When the material gets close to, or thinner than the electrode diameter, things get much harder.I'd drop down to 3/32" electrodes, or find yourself some thicker material to practice with at 1st. 1/8" steel is the very minimum I'd have some one learn on with stick, and if I can go thicker, say 5/16" or better yet 1/4" plus, that's what I'd use. I only tend to use 1/8" steel with guys who have underpowered 110v stick machines that have to run 1/16" rods.As suggested I typically like to start out guys with 7014. I'd do 6013 if I can't get 7014. It's a drag rod, so all you have to do is keep the flux in contact with the plate. We run 1/8" 7014 typically at 125 amps DC on 1/4" material. On AC you may need to be slightly higher. If you want to run on that 1/8" plate, as I  mentioned earlier, drop down to 3/32".Also rust on the plate will make striking an arc difficult some times. At a minimum be sure to take a grinder to the location of the ground clamp, and preferably to any place you plan to weld. Wire wheels won't cut it. All they do is polish the rust. You either need a hard wheel, or a sanding disk and take it down to silver metal.One way to get plenty of basic practice in is to grab yourself a 12" length of 1/4" or thicker angle iron and add some "feet" to it so it will sit like a V. Then run welds in the V to fill it up, overlapping one half over the last one. Be sure you cool the material every 3 or 4 welds, especially as it gets thicker. the heat build up will mess with the settings and cat like you are turning up the amps if you don't. I tell students if the piece is too hot to hold with bare hands, it needs to get cooled down in the dunk tank. Here's an example of the angle after we knocked off the feet for someone to move on to practicing horizontal welds off my scrap pile. You acn also do the same thing with heavy plate..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:You need thicker steel, but 1/8" will work for practice. I don't see anywhere that you were burning through, can you show us the back of the steel? I doubt you were burning through. If you were having to wait 2 seconds before you were moving because the arc wasn't stabilizing and rod was sticking then you prob need more amps. All the pictures you posted look too cold, and you moved too fast. Also looks like you were holding a long arc, but that could be because of the low amperage.If you post your location there may be a member near you can help.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Get some real steel.3/16 thick. Sit down when you weld.Both forearms resting on something. You really should be using 6013 but ya got whatcha got.With a heavy glove guide the rod itself in your( I'll assume) left hand like it was a pool cue guide.Your right hold the stinger(cue). Drop the angle of the rod way down and hit an imaginary ball the size of a kernel of corn. When it strikes draw a SLOW circle(50 cent piece) and just keep it burning in the same spot for maybe 6 seconds and "drive away" slowly with the stick making tiny circles( 6013 you just slowly drag away).Your other hand is now holding your right wrist. When the five pounds of rod are gone begin raising the angle of your rod up to about 10 oclock.You'll see what goes on by then.The pool cue method is the best way to learn to start the ark and the initial circle teaches you arc distance.Do it a couple dozen times.Slow down. One rod only welds few to several inches. I just taught a kid the other day.He was pretty good after about 15-20 sticks. Assume that the old transformer is putting out the amps it's set to. It'd be rare for it to not.Take care of her. Down the road when all your future fancy crap breaks down she'll be ready to toss sparks !Watch chuckE2000 on YuToob. He has a pretty good little series on stick you'll like.EDIT: The initial circle is like decorating a cupcake !  Last edited by Burpee; 12-28-2013 at 05:04 PM.Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:After seeing the first couple of responses, I went out and gave it another go. I got a couple of off-cut pieces of square tubing the other day, and decided to weld them onto the plate, as I'm always more motivated to practice when it feels like I'm actually accomplishing something.I tried cranking up the current a fair bit, setting it around 120A instead of the 80A I had been using, and that made a world of difference. The arc got much easier to strike, to the point where I only stuck it a handful of times in the hour I was welding. I did try laying a straight bead with it at first, and it did burn a hole through the plate if I wasn't careful, but with the square tubing, I didn't run into that.I did the inside and outside of the larger thinner-walled tube I had first, and most of it looked like thisI still had a hard time keeping the arc length short while keeping the stick in the same place. Most of the time, if I tried to push the stick back into the puddle, I ended up pulling it forward also. I did find a good way to brace myself though, and that helped a lot.I tried the thicker-walled tube next, and I thought I did a lot better of a job. The welds still look somewhat poor, I think, but they definitely look better.I'm definitely going to need to get more steel to practice with now, as that was all I had gotten. I burnt through about half a pound of the 6011 today also. I do want to try more 6013 or 7014. I also liked the 7018 I had gotten to try during the class a while back. I know it's generally much harder to re-strike an arc, but I produced the best looking beads with it during the class. I remember now the idea of making small circles with the stick, and I'll be sure to try that when I practice more tomorrow.I also will look at getting some steel to make a table. I've figured out a decent enough way to brace myself on this setup I've got, but I keep accidentally melting the sprinkler valve box, and that isn't a great thing. I definitely need a good way to brace myself though, as I am unbelievably unsteady most of the time.Last edited by bman22; 12-28-2013 at 07:50 PM.
Reply:The last picture looks the best. Still looks like you need to hold a tighter arc and move a little slower. Don't be scared to move your head close to the weld, you can't weld if you can't see.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:This might be a stupid question but are you using good clean dry rods? I know you said in an earlier post that you used one that was in the welding cart. In my little experience with stick welding once a stick gets exposed to moisture you might as well throw them away. I buy my rods in 5lb boxes from tractor supply cause they come in plastic boxes unlike lowes which come in cardboard boxes. I also bought a rod tube to keep them in. I'm no expert and my stick welds would proably look like that too if I were to go out right now an try to weld just thowin a suggestion out there for ya.93 Bobcat 225GMillerMatic 135HF Tig 91811
Reply:Originally Posted by Anthony83This might be a stupid question but are you using good clean dry rods? I know you said in an earlier post that you used one that was in the welding cart. In my little experience with stick welding once a stick gets exposed to moisture you might as well throw them away. I buy my rods in 5lb boxes from tractor supply cause they come in plastic boxes unlike lowes which come in cardboard boxes. I also bought a rod tube to keep them in. I'm no expert and my stick welds would proably look like that too if I were to go out right now an try to weld just thowin a suggestion out there for ya.
Reply:Now we are seeing something that is starting to resemble a bead.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:Try to notice how tight you are holding your stinger. If you are squeezing the stinger hard try to relax your hands and you will notice better control over what you are doing. Try different electrode positions in the stinger. Take dry runs and see if you will be able to burn the entire rod in one smooth movement. If your not sure about your heat sometimes turn up the heat and weld a bit. If your arc and puddle are too out of hand then gradually turn back down the Amps while welding after each little turn of the dial.Eastwood TIG 200NAPA 83-315 MIG
Reply:I've been trying to keep my face pretty close, but I have to admit, I am having a hard time keeping track of exactly where the puddle is and where the slag is. I don't know if it's my position relative to the weld, or the position of the weld, or just not paying enough attention, but I definitely am having a problem there. I also keep getting pieces of molten spatter flying up and down into my helmet if I get too close. Some positions were also resulting in some light burns on my arms, even through my sweater.The 6011 I am using is brand new Lincoln fleetweld stuff, it should be fine in that regard.I'm also probably squeezing the stinger a bit more than I should, as marked by the fact that my hand gets incredibly sore after an hour of welding. I still think my main problem with laying a consistent bead, especially in just one pass, is the fact that I don't have any good way to brace myself with the setup I am using. I can usually get through the majority of one rod before I have to stop and reposition, but there is always at least a 1/3 of the rod left.
Reply:6011 is different from easy drag rods, sent you a PM.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:When you get the amps dialed in and get to where you hold the arc length right, you won't have as much spatter to worry about. A hat will keep you from burning your head from spatter. If your sweater isn't cotton don't wear it for welding. For 6010/6011 I like to wear leather sleeves, any other electrode all I need is cotton or a FR jacket. Watch the puddle, not the arc. You will see the arc burn into the steel then behind the arc you will see the puddle fill. With 6010/6011 most guys will do a whip and pause or small circles to make an even weld that fills the joint. Don't forget, you can get allot more practice from the steel you have. Practice multi pass welds and pads of beads.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugWhen you get the amps dialed in and get to where you hold the arc length right, you won't have as much spatter to worry about. A hat will keep you from burning your head from spatter. If your sweater isn't cotton don't wear it for welding. For 6010/6011 I like to wear leather sleeves, any other electrode all I need is cotton or a FR jacket. Watch the puddle, not the arc. You will see the arc burn into the steel then behind the arc you will see the puddle fill. With 6010/6011 most guys will do a whip and pause or small circles to make an even weld that fills the joint. Don't forget, you can get allot more practice from the steel you have. Practice multi pass welds and pads of beads.
Reply:Originally Posted by bman22.... I have to admit, I am having a hard time keeping track of exactly where the puddle is and where the slag is. I don't know if it's my position relative to the weld, or the position of the weld, or just not paying enough attention, but I definitely am having a problem there. ...... I still think my main problem with laying a consistent bead, especially in just one pass, is the fact that I don't have any good way to brace myself with the setup I am using. I can usually get through the majority of one rod before I have to stop and reposition, but there is always at least a 1/3 of the rod left.
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugWhen you get the amps dialed in and get to where you hold the arc length right, you won't have as much spatter to worry about. A hat will keep you from burning your head from spatter. If your sweater isn't cotton don't wear it for welding. For 6010/6011 I like to wear leather sleeves, any other electrode all I need is cotton or a FR jacket. Watch the puddle, not the arc. You will see the arc burn into the steel then behind the arc you will see the puddle fill. With 6010/6011 most guys will do a whip and pause or small circles to make an even weld that fills the joint. Don't forget, you can get allot more practice from the steel you have. Practice multi pass welds and pads of beads.
Reply:Well, I finished up my box of 6011 today doing the second pass welds on each of the square tubes, along with a few attempts at beads. I think I did a lot better in general. I'm not sure if its the electrode I'm using, the heat I'm running at, or just my technique, but the beads all are starting to have that stack of dimes look, but on much too big of a scale. The grouping looks too big and far apart? I laid a couple of straight beads just so you guys can see that alone. I also tried seeing how far I could go with a single rod to judge my travel speed, but each of the three tries it took to finish the rod, I ended up burning a hole through the plate.Let me know what you think of these weldsThe individual beads were done using the little circle method, and the second pass joints on the tube were done using the whip and pause.I'm planning on getting some 3/32" 7014, or maybe just the 1/8" again tomorrow, and continuing to practice. The 7014 slag will chip off like the 6013 or 7018 slag, right? That has to be the most frustrating part of 6011 for me right now, is that I can hardly even see the welds to judge how I'm doing. Even after half an hour with a chipping hammer and a brush, they are still covered in slag.
Reply:All your beads are looking better than the first few you posted. On the flat plate it looks too hot/too long arc length. But its going to be hard to fix that while you are practicing on that thin steel with 1/8" electrodes. Pictures 2 and 4 look the best, because there is already more steel there from weld and the tube it will make things much easier to control. Just try to tighten up the whip and pause a little, if you think you need it change the amperage a bit to see how it changes the way things look. As for which electrode size/type to get, 7014 should be an easy rod to use. If you plan on getting more thin steel to practice on get the 3/32" electrodes. If you plan on getting 3/16" or thicker steel go with the 1/8" electrode.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Honestly I wouldn't even touch 6011 till you can get 6013, 7014, 7018 running decently. 6011/6010 will leave you very discouraged since the beads are no where near as visually pleasing as the other rods. Using a drag rog will help you get a better feel about your travel speed as well. When you run 6011 or 6010 its best to be whipped, it can be dragged but its not common.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:Agreed. You are fighting with that thin steel and large deep penetrating rods. Dropping down to 3/32" and running a medium to light penetrating rod will be a huge help. That or getting some thicker steel to practice on.I find the slag on 6011 to be much easier to "read" than heavier slag rods like 7018/6013/7014. With 6011 there's more puddle and less slag. That said, 6011 doesn't make the really nice stack of dimes beads the others do with almost no effort. 6011 isn't the easiest rod for many to learn with. It's typically the 2nd rod we have students work with, the 1st being 7014 or 6013 if we are out of 7014. Each person "sees" things a bit different and what I see may not be what you do.I still think your travel speed is too fast from the points on your ripples and the slag inclusions. Problem is with big rods and thin steel, it will be tough to keep the heat down enough you don't blow big holes in the thin material. Hopefully going to smaller rods and 7014 will help, or going to thicker steel. Keep in mind 1/8" steel with 3/32" rods will still be a challenge, just easier than doing the same with 1/8" 6011..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:6011 is by far the hardest rod for me to run.  I need it sometimes, but I struggle with it.  Hobart 335 A has been my favorite of 6011 for use on AC.Until you get some practice under your belt I would go 1/8" 7014 and 1/8" 6013. 7014 should run like a dream on your welding power source in 1/8" or 3/32 diameters.  7014 is typically called idiot run as it that easy to run.  (Bought some Hobart 7014 1/8" the other day it was just okay on AC, I have run other brands of 7014 that performed better on AC).  6013 should also run like a dream again in 1/8 or 3/32.  I just bought some US Forge/ Messer 6013.  So far I may like these the best of any 6013 that I have ever run on 6013 on AC.  Seems much less to prone to worm holing and 6013 the rod to use on thin sheet like you are practicing on.Forget 7018 with your power source. Try 7018AC from Hobart.  I just bought some and so far they burn reel sweet on AC on my machine.
Reply:I would like to see a picture of the old welder. 58 volts is not real high. My old Glenn is around 90AC. And burns any rod I put on it just fine. Just checked several miller welders. OVC varied from 56 to 80 volts. For an old welder 58 volts may be low. The lower the OCV the more important it is to match ac and dc rods to ac and dc machines.
Reply:I don't have a picture since I actually got the welder cleaned up a bit and dealt with the electrical safety issues, but here is one from a month or two back.Definitely a neat machine. Works great too. Buzzes like absolutely crazy all the time, but I guess they don't call them buzz-boxes for nothing, do they!Originally Posted by BurpeeGet some real steel.3/16 thick.
Reply:From your picture of the welder it loos like a splice in the cable. If you don't have good cables, ground clamp , electrode holder and good connections you are pissing in the wind. Keep in mind with 6013 or 7014 cleaning your weld is even more important. I would get a wire wheel for a grinder to make prep and cleanup easier.Miller xmt304,  Miller S22 p12, Miier Maxstar SD, Miller 252 w 30A, Miller super32p12, Lincoln Ranger 9, Thermal Arc 181I with spoolgun, Hypertherm 10000 ,Smith torches. Esab 161lts miniarc.
Reply:I second the request for pictures of the welder! Neat old machine, would be worth a good clean-up job. The little cartoon character on the front panel is a hoot!JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:I picked up a 5 pound box of 7014 3/32" electrodes today, along with a proper ground clamp. I had been using the old battery clamp that had been on the wire already, and it was a joke. The new clamp is much nicer.I don't know if its just the 7014, or the ground clamp as well, but these new welds are super easy to start, and super easy to maintain. I'm much happier with this. I am finding that they can be tricky to restrike though, which was an issue I wasn't aware of with 7014. It's not like 7018 either, where you can just tap the tip and break the slag coating off. You have to strike it just the right way to get it re-struck.Here are some pictures. Sorry for the darkness, but it was dark when I got home, and I really wanted to try the new electrodes. I think I got the current for these electrodes set just about right.I'll be sure and try to grab some better pictures of the welder itself when I get the chance. I'd definitely like to do some touch-up work on it, get it looking like new, but I'm sure the paint would be hard to deal with while preserving the original print and that little cartoon. I also have all of the original paperwork for the thing if anybody is interested. Service manuals, users manuals, even a receipt.
Reply:Getting better - looks a little cold yet though. What amps were you using?My chart has 3/32" 7014 at 80-125 amps. Lincoln list theirs at 80-100 ACTo restrike, you'll notice the electrode burns up into the flux quite far - sets the arc length for you so you can drag.Because of this, pinch the flux off at the tip so your actual rod can touch to restrike. Flux is non-conductiveI like 7014 - they run great on AC Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 12-30-2013 at 09:27 PM.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Yeah, I noticed the flux extended a long ways past the electrode, and figured that had something to do with it. As for the current, I had it right around 80A. It did stick fairly easily, so I thought I might be a little cold, but I didn't have a chance to experiment before it got too dark to see anything through the welding helmet.
Reply:Originally Posted by bman22Yeah, I noticed the flux extended a long ways past the electrode, and figured that had something to do with it. As for the current, I had it right around 80A. It did stick fairly easily, so I thought I might be a little cold, but I didn't have a chance to experiment before it got too dark to see anything through the welding helmet.
Reply:Not bad. As mentioned you are a bit cold, and the V shape to the bead ripples tells me you can slow down a bit more..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Typically most brands of 7014 likes its amps.  I always usually run it on the high side of recommended range especially with AC.There is a reason 7014 is called "idiot rod" and it because it is so easy to run even on a less than ideal power source.  Some brands of 7014 will actually run even better on AC than they do DC which is rare for most rods.  7014 will likely always be a stable in you welding arsenal in both 3/32 and 1/8 diameters with your current welder.