Argon Poisoning

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Argon, though not classified as a poisonous gas, can be lethal if used without proper ventilation.  Essentially personnel can suffocate for lack of oxygen in an argon-rich atmosphere.That aside, I recently heard a story about a welding shop in which personnel who had been overcome by argon were held upside down by their ankles as treatment to remove the heavier-than-air argon from their lungs and bloodstream.  I told the story teller this had to be some sort of joke, like the the one about how a cylinder gets lighter when filled with compressed helium.Any comments?
Reply:I  have heard of the hanging upside down cure before.  I have no idea if it's valid or hokus pokus.I believe one could suffocate from breathing too much of any gas other than air or other accepted breathing gasses.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:No phony balony..Inversion is the way to exhaust argon from the lungs..Only had to do it once but yes it works.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I dont know about the inversion theory to get rid of Argon in the lungs. All gasses will effect the lungs different. Once the gas has crossed the cellular membrane and gotten inside the cells then its there whether inverted or upright. Take carbon monoxide for example. The blood cells have an approximately 200 times greater effinity for CO than for 02. Once the blood has stored up enough CO then it takes something to push the CO out of the cells. The person ends up with some quaity time in a hyperbaric chamber. Just like a diver coming up to fast and getting the bends. If someone has an exposer to any gas that they think is going to cause a problem or has been exposed to a large amount of a gas. They should seek immediate medical attention. As I said I have a hard time beleiving that inverting a person could expell any gas out of the lungs. They work on a positive pressure/negative pressure system. As the diaphram expands so does the chest wall making the pressure inside the lungs less than the outside causing air to rush in, then the piaphram contracts as does the intercostal muscles in the chest wall expelling the air or gas in the lungs. So either inverted or upright the exchange is still the same. There is no replacing prompt medical attention.
Reply:In diving, helium mixtures are used to reduce narcosis and reduce O2 content which in air becomes toxic below 180'. Double tanks are often used and if improperly filled can lead to one tank being filled with pure helium while the other tank gets the proper mix. Breathing enough pure helium ( or Argon)  will shut down the bodies breathing reflex. The body breaths not due to lack of O2, but due to an excess of CO2. With your lungs full of an inert gas the body will not try to breath. CO2 will not come out of solution in the lungs without gas exchange of some kind. Usually 2-3 breaths are FATAL. Rescue breathing and 100% O2 are the recomended medical procedures. I am familiar with a case last year in Florida cave where a woman breathed pure Helium at depth due to an improper fill. Only quick responce by her dive buddies getting her imedeatly to the surface, on 100% O2 and doing CPR until EMTs arived and transported her to the hospital saved her life.BTW Helium used for filling baloons is deliberately cut with 16-21% O2 to prevent killing off small children attempting to sound like the chipmonks. DO NOT FILL BALLOONS WITH WELDING OR SCIENTIFIC HELIUM!!
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterNo phony balony..Inversion is the way to exhaust argon from the lungs..Only had to do it once but yes it works.....zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterNo phony balony..Inversion is the way to exhaust argon from the lungs..Only had to do it once but yes it works.....zap!
Reply:It has worked for me. I do not believe that you have to be competely inverted. If your head is below the rest of your body, lie face down to drain out the argon. Usually by the time you get to inverting, you feel like total poo anyways so you need a minimum of a 30 minute break.Last edited by Mark...; 02-29-2008 at 08:58 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mark...It has worked for me. I do not believe that you have to be competely inverted. If your head is below the rest of your body, lie face down to drain out the argon. Usually by the time you get to inverting, you feel like total poo anyways so you need a minimum of a 30 minute break.
Reply:Me thinks this thread belongs in the SAFETY forum?
Reply:Originally Posted by Mark...Me thinks this thread belongs in the SAFETY forum?
Reply:Very interesting thread guys. In fact, best informative thread in a month or 2. Thank you all for your input. BTW, what are the simptoms?? I have a couple boat hulls to weld in, and I am sure after a few hours confined, I would be breathing at least some extra argon.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:I experienced a fatigued, kinda sick to your stomach, dizzy, lost all your energy feeling. It really sucks, but I probably should try to catch it sooner next time. So there can be a next time.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mark...I experienced a fatigued, kinda sick to your stomach, dizzy, lost all your energy feeling. It really sucks, but I probably should try to catch it sooner next time. So there can be a next time.
Reply:The symptoms would probably include any of the symptoms that are present with hypoxia, or low oxygenation. Weakness, confusion, neausea, red flush skin, cyanosis or bluish purple of the nail beds and lips. Any feeling that you know just aint right. If you think you might be getting into a bad place you probably are already there. Most people dont realize there in a bad position until its about to late. Normal room air is about 21% oxygen at 19% hypoxia starts to set in at 17% you are in a very dangerous atmosphere. At 17% you cant survive long, fire wont even maintain burning much lower than that. Any confined space should have some type of ventilation or some type of breathing appartus should be worn.
Reply:Bhardy501  I would have to agree 100% with you. I diving, Rebreather divers who have an O2 malfunction will usually never notice it. Symptoms present with hypoxia, or low oxygenation generally include weakness, confusion, and disorientation, but usually the from the person affected sees no warning signs other than feeling tired. By this time the mind has shut down to the point they just go to sleep and die.  Careful monitering of O2 levels is the only sure way to prevent this. As most weldors don't have the equipment to moniter O2 I would have to agree ventilation / resirators a must.I've noticed the symptoms to a minor degree checking gear before a deep dive with mixes less than 16%. A couple good breaths on your regs and you start to feel kinda foggy / fuzzy. Add exertion and its not uncommon for diver to pass out at the surface breathing their deep mix very quickly. Extra gas is carried for these dives to get from the surface to a lower depth where you deep mix is safe to breath.Many people wrongly believe that if there is a lack of O2 they will begin to wheeze, pant and feel that they can't catch thier breath. These are symptoms of CO2 poisoning. Your body is trying to get rid of excess CO2, somewhat similar to if you hyperventilate. You might see these symtoms if you were to MIG in a confined area, but Tig would probably not. CO2 poisoning was the real danger to the Apollo 13 astronauts not O2 depleation.I work with a firm part time that does commercial diving. This includes diving in confined sapce and confined space welding that is not underwater. I often get strange looks as I sit there reading a book waiting for the Diver/weldor to finish. My job is standby / safety diver or tender. You just sit there and listen to the diver breath and talk to him on the com if he stops talking / humming. We have a min of 2 men topside while the diver is working.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mark...I experienced a fatigued, kinda sick to your stomach, dizzy, lost all your energy feeling. It really sucks, but I probably should try to catch it sooner next time. So there can be a next time.
Reply:If I was still actively welding and did very much welding in confined spaces I would own what is commanly known as a 4-gas monitor. They are used extensively in the oil & gas industry because of the high dangers of explosion or poison gas. I carried one with me whenever I was going to work on any vessel or just in certain areas. The main dangers in my work were explosions and hydrogen sulfide gas poisioning but the monitor also reads oxygen content and has a really annoying alarm so you will pay attention. I can remember 4 times when it probably saved my life, twice from explosions and twice from high H2S consentrations. I never had it show a low oxygen level.
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloSo it feels like being married?! Okay. I remember that feeling. I'll keep my eyes open!!!
Reply:Rojo,Confined space procedures usually call for a look-out/buddy who is OUTSIDE the confined space and whose job is to watch you and sound the alarm AND haul you out if you drop.  To those not knowing what's going on, it may look like the look-out is just sitting there eating donuts and reading.  Also, forced ventilation to keep fresh breathable air in the confined space.  Or the use of SCBA (with appropriate training before hand) or a fresh-air powered mask.Gas monitors may or may not be required or recommended.  If explosion or toxic gases/fumes are or may be present, the monitors are (or should) be standard.
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloVery interesting thread guys. In fact, best informative thread in a month or 2. Thank you all for your input. BTW, what are the simptoms?? I have a couple boat hulls to weld in, and I am sure after a few hours confined, I would be breathing at least some extra argon.
Reply:GNM is correct about the OSHA rules. They also require a gas detecto under most circumstances. At a minimum have a good ventilation fan with a hose blowing fresh air down into the hold at one end and one exhausting somewhere else. That will minimize the buildup of gases. Argon itself wont hurt you but the lack of oxygen will. I constantly work in confined spaces. We have gas detectors with us all the time and a person topside at all times. Be careful please.Latest Toys Miller 180 Mig and Elite Mask!!Wright Welder 225ACShop OutFitters 20/20 Bending SystemHypertherm 380 Plasma30 Years of Sparking (Electrical & Welding)
Reply:Its not the argon that kill a person or else there will be a poison label on the cyclinder but lack of oxygen in lungs... put a bird in cage? so both can suffocate together?Unit in my fab shop dept:my good hand and team that trust me...A lone welder make art... a village full of welder make Miracles...
Reply:Bhardy, Moonrise, Gnm, Wolfman, thanks for the input. I know the protocols for working in hazardous sectors, but the thing is, many of the "Hazardous" areas we find ourselves in are the result of a little job. No one balks at a big job, having a guy there for safety reasons. but many times, we find ourselves working alone, and maybe we have to get into one small area to do some work. Everyone here has, and always will wind up doing it in one way or another. A little ductwork, and find out there was a heavy VOC adhesive inside it. Or some kind of fumes where we don't expect them. Or some water suddenly down where we are working on live electrical. All kinds of "Little things" that will show up from time to time. So again, thanks for the heads up on the initial symptoms. I think a good size fan will clear out the stale air, when I have to go confined!!!And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:I agree we all get into bad situations at one time or another. I think a little common sence goes a long way. You would be surprised how many people I pick up in the ambulance that got hurt doing something the same way they have always done it. You only get a shot at being dead once. You ever get it correct and it lasts forever.I think to go to confine places is dangerous... heared a couple of newbie welder went in an ex-diesel carrier pontoon doing repair... only one survive because of ugly fume...Should wear breathing mask attached to compressed air. Working in a very tight and hazzardous places is like breathing in the sea...Unit in my fab shop dept:my good hand and team that trust me...A lone welder make art... a village full of welder make Miracles...
Reply:Hello all,My name is Martin, but you can call me Marty. I recently came across this this forum in search of the answer to my question which was "Can you die from Argon poisoning?". This question was inspired by a movie I recently watched called Primer, about two bio engineers who figure out how to build a "Time Machine". In the movie I witnessed that one of the things used to power the "Time Machine" was Argon gas; their smaller version held 7.1 liters of Argon gas, (Would this be a lethal dosage if breathed directly?") which I assume the bigger version of the machine would need more Argon to power it. This movie looks like an Indie Flick but I assure you, it will have your brain working.-Marty
Reply:isnt argon the third most common element in air, right behind nitrogen and oxygen?hence a suffocant but not a toxin?
Reply:I'm no expert on this, but I don't believe that it's possible to be poisoned by argon at all.  I think that it's far more likely that anybody whose gotten sick while welding got it as a result of gas produced from what they were welding and not the argon.  To asphyxiate from argon is a different story even though it would have to be a lot of welding in a small space.  At 20 cfh, the space you are in would have to be pretty small to displace all of the air.  If you were welding in that small of a place, you really need to be aware of confined space procedures.  In all, good ventilation of the workspace is always important no matter whether you are welding, painting or even just sitting around.Rene
Reply:Originally Posted by zerepenerI'm no expert on this, but I don't believe that it's possible to be poisoned by argon at all.  I think that it's far more likely that anybody whose gotten sick while welding got it as a result of gas produced from what they were welding and not the argon.  To asphyxiate from argon is a different story even though it would have to be a lot of welding in a small space.  At 20 cfh, the space you are in would have to be pretty small to displace all of the air.  If you were welding in that small of a place, you really need to be aware of confined space procedures.  In all, good ventilation of the workspace is always important no matter whether you are welding, painting or even just sitting around.Rene
Reply:Originally Posted by MartyKHello all,My name is Martin, but you can call me Marty. I recently came across this this forum in search of the answer to my question which was "Can you die from Argon poisoning?". This question was inspired by a movie I recently watched called Primer, about two bio engineers who figure out how to build a "Time Machine". In the movie I witnessed that one of the things used to power the "Time Machine" was Argon gas; their smaller version held 7.1 liters of Argon gas, (Would this be a lethal dosage if breathed directly?") which I assume the bigger version of the machine would need more Argon to power it. This movie looks like an Indie Flick but I assure you, it will have your brain working.-Marty
Reply:This is an old thread, but wht the hey,I've had to hang upside down a couple times. Not just because of argon. Had some oily parts that made all kinds of fumes. The shop I worked at at the time didn't have proper ventalation. Even if you kept your head out of the visible smoke, the fumes would still get to you. Boss told me to go hang upside down periodically to drain my lungs. I could feel the fumes coming out. Tickled the throat.  Nasty stuff. I was glad when they fixed their ventilation issues.
Reply:affixiation not toxicity.  does'nt a bulb element burn (or should i say Not Burn) in Argon , because oxygen would destroy the element.        thermal arc 252i  -  millermatic 350P -   miller XMT, cp300ts, 30a 22a feeders, buttload of other millers, handfull of lincolns, couple of esabs  -   Hypertherm 1250 G3
Reply:I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned Argoff yet. Spray the room down with Argoff, it displaces argon and keeps it from sticking to everything or getting into your lungs. Hardware store has it on the shelf right next to the "no oil".
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyI'm surprised that no-one has mentioned Argoff yet. Spray the room down with Argoff, it displaces argon and keeps it from sticking to everything or getting into your lungs. Hardware store has it on the shelf right next to the "no oil".
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseRojo,Confined space procedures usually call for a look-out/buddy who is OUTSIDE the confined space and whose job is to watch you and sound the alarm AND haul you out if you drop.  To those not knowing what's going on, it may look like the look-out is just sitting there eating donuts and reading.  Also, forced ventilation to keep fresh breathable air in the confined space.  Or the use of SCBA (with appropriate training before hand) or a fresh-air powered mask.Gas monitors may or may not be required or recommended.  If explosion or toxic gases/fumes are or may be present, the monitors are (or should) be standard.
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyHardware store has it on the shelf right next to the "no oil".
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55Oh boy. . . here we go with the 'no oil' again.What were you thinking Sandy?!
Reply:Neve heard of no oil. Heard of oil-b-gone and oileater. Guess I gotta go demand my local hardware store order me some.Reminds me, I need to order some Fallopian tubes for the compressor...
Reply:Damn..This reminds me..I need a new water pump for a '66 V W bug.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:That might be ozone poisoning. Zap. You can get a form of pneumonia from that.        Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterDamn..This reminds me..I need a new water pump for a '66 V W bug.....zap!
Reply:Back in '05 when I was going to a local welding college, Some intelligent kid had a bright idea. He reasoned that Helium is lighter than air and it makes your voice higher pitched, and argon is heavier than air, so it MUST make you have a deeper voice. So this DA unscrews the hose from the back of the welder and turns up the regulator. Another student saw him sucking on the hose, and ran to get the instructor. Good thing, because his face started changing colors very fast. (the instructor said his lips turned blue real quick, but I wasent close enough to see that part). The instructor grabbed him and held him up by his legs. The kid lived. Good thing the other student say him sucking on the hose, so the instructor knew what to do, because if we just say him passed out, then no one would have know what from, and he would have died. Because even if you start CPR on someone that did that, I dont think it would help if the argon is still in the lungs. Some people just are not very bright.
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55MoonRise,In the petro-chemical industry all confined space procedures call for a watch person at the entrance and their only job is to watch and alert in the event someone goes down.  The watch person entering to carry out a rescue is a definate no-no  as they may become the next victim and then who would be there to alert Safety/Rescue?The only time a watch would atempt/perform a rescue is if and where the confined space is too small for rescue personnel in which case the worker would have an extraction rope appropriately secured to them for the purpose of hauling their butts out.  However, alerting Safey/Rescue is still the first priority - who would probably already be present as part of the Confined Space work permit requirements in such a case.Atmosphere monitoring is rarely not included in the requirements as well while work is being conducted and of course always prior to allowing entrance as the concerns are not just regarding safe breathing conditions but more often than not potential explosion issues as well.
Reply:I still don't buy the whole turn upside down thing.gases at rest will stoimetrically mix (if I remember the correct name) same reason why you don't have to shake up cylinders of mixed gas or turn them upside down to get all the argon out.the pulmonary system works on positive/negative pressure.  If you inhaled Argon It can kill you if your O2 intake goes below 18%  However if you took in one breath and then breathed in and out again it would be mixed with the Co2/O2 and expelled.  It's not so heavy that your system can't remove it. and it has no toxic effects at all (unlike CO poisoning). In fact I think the molecule is too big (and inert) such that it doesn't pass into the blood at all, it just takes up space in your lungs that could be occupied by O2if someone had inhaled argon, once removed from an AR atmosphere the  best thing would be cpr and chest pumping it will be expelled like a normal breath.Same goes for anything else like nitrogen, CO2  etc they can all kill you from lack of oxygen, but no special precautions to "remove" them from the lungs, they don't sit in there.
Reply:I could see it increase internal pressure in the lungs. That might help force out other things in the membranes of the lungs. Including water.        Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:Originally Posted by MetarinkaI still don't buy the whole turn upside down thing.gases at rest will stoimetrically mix (if I remember the correct name) same reason why you don't have to shake up cylinders of mixed gas or turn them upside down to get all the argon out.the pulmonary system works on positive/negative pressure.  If you inhaled Argon It can kill you if your O2 intake goes below 18%  However if you took in one breath and then breathed in and out again it would be mixed with the Co2/O2 and expelled.  It's not so heavy that your system can't remove it. and it has no toxic effects at all (unlike CO poisoning). In fact I think the molecule is too big (and inert) such that it doesn't pass into the blood at all, it just takes up space in your lungs that could be occupied by O2if someone had inhaled argon, once removed from an AR atmosphere the  best thing would be cpr and chest pumping it will be expelled like a normal breath.Same goes for anything else like nitrogen, CO2  etc they can all kill you from lack of oxygen, but no special precautions to "remove" them from the lungs, they don't sit in there.
Reply:This deals with nitrogen but still has lots of good info.http://www.csb.gov/videoroom/detail....0&pg=1&F_All=yThere are some good safety videos there and you can get them on DVD for free.
Reply:One of the death penalty methods that have been proposed is nitrogen asphyxiation.  We are used to breathing air (which is about 80% nitrogen), so breathing 100% is not noticeable and since the CO2 levels in the bloodstream do not go up, you don't have the urge to breathe.  Argon works the same way, but is more expensive than nitrogen.  Argon is used by some divers for dry suit inflation.  They say that it has better thermal properties.  At higher partial pressures when diving, nitrogen is narcotic, thus the term "nitrogen narcosis".  They have also experimented with other gases to replace nitrogen with the hope of finding one that is cheap, readily comes out of the bloodstream, and does not have the narcotic affect of nitrogen at high partial pressures.  Argon was tested and it had twice the narcotic affect of nitrogen, if I remember correctly.  Krypton and xenon were even more narcotic.  So far, helium and (to a lesser extent) hydrogen appear to be the mix gases of choice for really deep dives.  Helium tends to make some people a bit nervous at higher partial pressures (thus the term HPNS), so a bit of nitrogen is added to the mix to basically mellow you out a bit...
Reply:As a PADI certified rescue diver, O2 and Nitrogen narcosis are the two leading causes of diver death.  Once  affected, the probability of being affected again becomes more likely and increases the chance of death due to re-exposure severity.  Lack of O2 causes the loss of breathing reflex to be interpreted by the brain and you go to sleep and die.  AR poses the same risk due to displacement of the available O2 in the atmosphere.  Tech divers manipulate O2 concentration to allow deeper dives by limiting the available O2 to reduce the partial pressure to below 1.4 ATA, but normally carry a bottle of Low concentration TRI Mix, Nitrox, and pure O2 on each dive, with a stage or decompression bottle suspended at 15 feet to rid themselves of excess nitrogen and helium prior to surfacing.  So they use 3 bottles on the dive, and a 4th to surface.  If you look at a dive plan for a tech dive you will be amazed at the precision that is required to keep your diver alive.  Generally a Tech Diver is also accompanied by a support diver, and a tender in addition to the regular support from the dive platform.  In general since Ar is a heavier than air gas, concentrating it to a signifigant level in a work shop setting is very difficult if not impossible, but in an enclosed weldment or vessel it can be accomplished very easilly and must be included in the weld design just like any other code parameter.  just my .02 from a divers perspective...I'm spending my Kids inheritance, I dont like him that much anyway!!!!!!Enuff tools to do the job, enough sense to use em.Anybody got a spare set of kidneys?  Trade?