tring to start my SA200

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its turning over and backfiring back through the carb. is it still out of time?
Reply:I don't have one, but it's most likely timing or a burnt or stuck valve. Timing could be caused by the mechanism that drives the cam (I don't know on that engine if it's a chain or gear driven), or somthing wrong on the dristributor setup. There's quite a lot of guy's around here that have done ground up rebuilds on SA200 though.
Reply:I guess I should take it to someone but I'm try to figure this so I'll know what to do if something go wrong. but there are no stuck valve all are good , and its gear driven with a magneto.
Reply:How long has it been sitting? How many hours on the unit? Do you know basic troubleshooting for an engine? Give us an idea of what you can handle and we'll give you an idea what to look at. It may be something as simple as bad gas, stuck float or worn spark plugs. Give us a better idea...then we can pinpoint.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:when I picked it up it had been sitting about 2 years. it has new plugs and plug wires. I dropped the pan and cleaned the inside and inspected pump. installed new pan gaskets, new oil filter new oil. installed new carb kit. cleaned out gas tank and ran new gas line w/ filter. not back firing now, got in time now. its turns over and sound like its just about to start and then the starter kicks out. there is gas getting to the carb. its sounding like its not getting enough gas.  this help any?
Reply:Sounds like you're on the way. A good start. Double check your spark, maybe need new points in the distributor? Maybe a new rotor? You covered half the ignition system, now try the other half. If it's been sitting that long, just run it through the whole tune-up list. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:also I put a new cap and rotor on it but haven't put in new points or condencer yet. I know the coil is getting fire because I don't have the modern means of a mag. tester just have the old touch and fill and get zapped (ouch!). it wasn't that bad. what do you think now?
Reply:You've gone that far - replace the points and condenser. What did you do to the carb? Total rebuild? New gaskets only? Sounds like maybe the carb is still gummed up. If you've covered all that, run a compression test.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:compression test, tell me how. to make sure i on the right track. thanks
Reply:Here is a good link outlining the simple process:http://www.aa1car.com/library/compression.htmHere is an example of an comression test kit: http://www.brandsonsale.com/engine-c...on-tester.htmlJohn -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:i picked up a tester this morn. I'll give it a try. do you know what they shoul read?
Reply:I found my answer on the page you sent me. thanks
Reply:Sure, you're welcome. I hope we can find an answer to this mystery engine problem. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:'just have the old touch and fill and get zapped (ouch!). it wasn't that bad. what do you think now?' My guess is weak mag. Putting out what it should, it will buckle your knees. Not that much trouble to change points and condenser, assuming you have a Fairbanks mag. If you don't remove the mag, timing is unchanged. If you do, leave governor in place and basic timing is still good. Number one may not be upper left, but who cares?     weldersales
Reply:A simple way to check spark.  Take a good or new plug.  Bend the neg electrode far away from the + electorde.  hook up a plug wire and crank it over with the plug sitting on a good ground.  The spark should still jump the gap or to straight to ground.  The spark should be blue, not orange.  Sounds to me like the timing is a little late.I am a mechanic for a living.  Send a PM if you want.DavidLast edited by David R; 05-07-2007 at 07:26 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I did a compression test on it and my readings 1-1102-1153-1154-055
Reply:Yikes! Numero quattro cylinder is finnito! Did you put oil down the cylinder to see if it was rings or valves?John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Uh, nevermind.  Posted something and realized not a good idea.Anyway, you found it.Last edited by phila.renewal; 05-07-2007 at 09:36 PM.
Reply:how much oil do i put in?
Reply:A few drops up to a teaspoon. You will either see the compression jump, if the rings are bad, or the compression won't jump, meaning bent, stuck or broken valves. Try to get the oil near the cylinder wall. On a typical V-6 or V-8 it's easy and the walls are slanted. Not sure how the motor is arranged on a SA-200.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:with those compression readings, the motor should still run.  2 squirts from an oil can and crank it over a few times before taking the test again.I wouldn't sweat it yet.  Getting it fired up is far more important.  I am sure it will run with those #s.  Compression is not why its not starting.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by tompit9how much oil do i put in?
Reply:so just a couple of drops over the valve and turn it over.
Reply:Take out spark plug, insert oil. Turn over a few times, then install compression tester.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:will do. thanksi'm a motor dummy.
Reply:tryed the oil thing and still getting a low reading.
Reply:maybe i'll let it set a while and try again
Reply:The oil, if the rings are worn, should temporarily seat the rings. If you're not getting a higher reading, then you have valve issues. Did you put the oil in the spark plug hole? As David R pointed out, it should still try to run...even with 3 cylinders. Do you have spark at the spark plugs? Take off the plug wire, take out the plug, re-attach the wire and hold it with rubberized vice grips against a ground. Check for spark between the electrode and ground. If you have weak or no spark, you still have ignition issues. We all learn something everyday. Most of us are "dummies" until we learn. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:rechecked the pulg upened the gap and ground and got a blue arc bewtween them. rechecked the compression and its still low.
Reply:Originally Posted by tresi2 or 3 good squirts from a pump oil can. You can take the valve out of your compression tester, bring the bad cyl to tdc and hook a regulated air hose up to the hose of the compression tester. 15-20 psi will be enough to start with. Listen for the air hissing. If you hear it through the carb you've got a bad intake valve. Like wise if you hear it in the exhaust the exhaust valve is bad. Remove the oil fill cap. If you hear it there you have a ring or piston problem.
Reply:SO, you have spark.  You have compression.  GAS?   A shot of starting fluid should cure that question.  The only thing left is spark at the right time. Pull out plug #1.  stick your finger in the hole from the spark plug.  Turn the motor over S L O W L Y.  (with a wrench) Watch the spark plug.  You should feel the compression from the piston coming up.  Watch the plug.  If I remember right, you should be able to hear the mag snap and see the plug spark as the piston reaches Top Dead Center.  If not, you have a timing issiue.  Please let us know what happens.  Starting fluid won't hurt a gas engine like it will a diesel.  Don't be shy with the stuff.Letting the machine sit will not bring the compression back.  Don't worry about it now, just get it running.  It may cure its self once its fired up and warmed up a few times.Good luckDavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I , my self still think its still out of time. let me get this strait, when I get the first piston on high I need to point the rotor at #1 or #2?
Reply:when the compression out of #1 pushes my finger off where do I set the rotor?
Reply:Put #1 wire in the distributor where ever the rotor is pointing so #1 gets the spark.  Make sure the piston is all the way to the top.You are almost there.Once its fired up, you will still have to time it. Figure out which way the rotor turns when the engine is running.  Turning the distributor or mag in the direction the rotor is going will retard the timing, turn it the opposite way will advance it.Once its running at idle,Turn the mag or distributor so it idles fast (advance) then back a little (retard) so it slows down.  A timing light would be even better.  Once you open the throttle, it should not hesatate.  If it does advance it A LITTLE.DavidLast edited by David R; 05-09-2007 at 06:00 AM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I'll give it a try
Reply:Ok so i'm a new guy but i've been lurking for quite some time.  I have a lot of experience in the automotive field, (i'll post the standard " my welding table and welding cart pics later) I finally felt compelled to participate because i think that i can help with this problem.  Ok so to the solution to the problem at hand.  It sounds like to me that you might have quiet possibley messed up the firing order, i know it only a four cylinder but its easy to do.  double check that before you tear into it too deep.  It could be an easy fix.  As to the exact firing order for your motor i don't know, but most four cylinders are 1-3-2-4.
Reply:order on the head says 1-3-4-2. I took the first plug out and turned the motor until it pushed my finger off. I removed the cap and found the rotor facing downwards. now on that cap, which is #2 is it to the left or underneith #1? It should be clockwise, right?
Reply:The easiest way to figure this out is to continue to rotate the crankshaft in a clockwise direction and with the ignition cap off see which way the rotor turns.  One question, on the new cap you bought is there a designation on one of the terminals as to which one is or supposed to be the number one?  Most caps are label this way but some are not.  Most of the time the rotor should face towards the top, maybe your distributor is turned 180 degrees opposite?
Reply:yes, #1 in the top right.
Reply:It doesn't matter what it sez on the cap.  With the #1 cylinder on top dead center, put the plug wire in the cap where the rotor is pointing.  You are 180 out.  If you want, you can pull the mag/dist and turn it 1/2 turn, put it back so the rotor points to #1 on the cap and put #1 wire in there.  Still going to need some fine tweaking once it fires up.#4 will be opposite on the cap of #1.This IS your problemDavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:maybe not ya'll, this is really frustraing to me. pretty sure I'm going blow this thing up!
Reply:and still not fireing up. p#!$ing me off!
Reply:Assuming no engine damage this should get you running in minutes.Confirm that starter is turning fan end of engine CW.Firing order is 1342.Confirm mag/dist rotation CW or CCW. Make sure you have spark.Make sure crankcase oil is not overfull or diluted with raw gasoline.Shut the fuel off to stop the drowning. Spin it over with spark plugs out to clear excess fuel and install Fresh spark plugs.  Initially, try to get it firing with just a prime of fresh fuel. Or okay, one time, a snort of ether or propane.Most basic description; The rotor has to be pointed at the #1 wire terminal and ready to send a spark there just after #1 piston has compressed fuel in the cylinder. Then rotor moves on to serve cylinders 3 - 4 - 2. By the time your finger blows out of #1 (fan end) and you let off starter, rotor is probably heading for #3 or beyond. There is only one correct and three wrong locations for basic timing. So if you are unsure of TDC or compression/exhaust stroke it's no big deal to experiment.Take your best shot and pick your #1 wire location. Wire the cap following your verified direction of rotor rotation; CW or CCW 1 3 4 2Try to fire it. You can "clock" your basic timing by moving all wires (while keeping them in 1342 order) ahead or back one terminal in the cap.  If firing out exhaust, retard basic timing by "clocking" all wires opposite of the rotor rotation. If firing back through intake, advance basic timing by "clocking" all wires in (with) the direction of rotor rotation.If you still decide to blow it up, save the block plate off the back of the engine for me.Good Luck!Last edited by denrep; 05-11-2007 at 12:55 AM.
Reply:got ya, I'm pretty sure that I've done all that is list above. I've got a engine man coming by this morning to check it out. Thanks for the help
Reply:how strong should the spark be coming out of the plug?
Reply:strong enough too be able to see a blue light, its hard to measure visually.  All you need is enough electricity to jump the air gap between the electrode to ignite the fuel.  The stronger the spark the cleaner the burn, but if you can see the spark it should be strong enough to start.Last edited by fordtrucks; 05-11-2007 at 02:08 PM.
Reply:well I do see spark. ok,,,,,,, now the spark is supposet to continue right?    with plug out and cable on and turning over, the spark hit a few times and its almost like it quites and starts back sparking. Any Idea? I've got a new condencor and points comeing to me monday.    Is the points soppost have a small gap or wide gap and how do you set them?
Reply:If it a Continental Engine this link might help,I have a Miller big 40 and this manual helped me .Good Luck http://www.wisconsinmotors.com/partc...d_Overhaul.pdf
Reply:The Lincoln manual indicates a .020" gap for the points and a "025" gap for the spark plugs.  The points gap is measured with a feeler gage.  Spark plugs are often set with a specialized spark plug gapping tool.  These are available from most auto parts stores, and are very inexpensive.