Tip tig

admin

Here in Australia there is a new welding process called TIP TIG. It basically consists of a wire feed unit which feeds wire directly to the tip of the tig torch. The units are ridiculously expensive. Almost twice as much as a top end ac/dc tig welder.Very little information can be found on this process. Iv seen some clips on youtube and can see that it makes travel speed much faster. Similar to MIG welding travel speeds. But without spatter.I believe this process has been around in Europe and the USA for a while now. I was hoping someone could tell me more about it like what limitations does it have, can it do light gauge or aluminium, and why is it so damn expensive.
Reply:I saw it operate at Fabtech. I guess it uses an electrically hot wire where a standard cold wire feeder does not.I want to say the feeder alone was in the $13K range. Maybe it was $20K I don't recall at the moment. Whatever the case, the guy running it made it look easy. The wire being hot eliminates problems associated with traditional cold feeders. They also said it allowed for a far lower skill set with very high deposition rates because it was in many ways, like MIG welding.It's been a couple years now. It was cool, but at that price you better have a good reason to buy one.IMHO of course
Reply:I recently bought an older one, an OTC Tigun from a tool consignment shop. The biggest problem that I had, was learning how to, and wiring up the components to make it run off of my power supply.Kevin Morin from Alaska was my guiding light on this one...as a matter of fact, he still is! I just got it up and running, and am now experimenting with amperage and wire feed speeds.Back to the OP...these things are amazing! They speed up a TIG job like there's no tomorrow. So, if you were to bid on a job and priced it as though you were going to manually TIG weld it, you'd get it done a lot faster using one of these, depending on the particulars of the job, of course.But...as 7A749 said, you have to justify it for the cost of it. My case was a little different. I bought it used, for a nice price. I'm assuming that the newer models are a lot nicer than mine.As far as limitations go, I haven't used it enough to know...RichLast edited by steelsurgeon; 07-21-2015 at 09:23 AM.
Reply:the place for that and justification of price would be in production line and the elimination of a human using it, making it robotic, so you save a salary and benefits and faster working time....just keep in mind the movie terminator...the machines will rise if we keep going this way, scientists are already trying to figure safeguards from the machines learning on there own with artificial intelligence....Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:The deal that sets the TT apart from cold feeders is the hot wire. I guess in order to accomplish that, a great deal of extra circuitry has to be incorporated with the feeder. The guy doing the demo was welding on sch 80 12" pipe IIRC. It was insane how fast he could lay wire and make a very high quality weld. He was a pipe guy by trade and said the unit had already been used extensively on a variety of piping jobs throughout the US and Canada.It was pretty cool to watch. I would have loved to try it, but they weren't offering
Reply:Originally Posted by roadkillbobbthe place for that and justification of price would be in production line and the elimination of a human using it, making it robotic, so you save a salary and benefits and faster working time....just keep in mind the movie terminator...the machines will rise if we keep going this way, scientists are already trying to figure safeguards from the machines learning on there own with artificial intelligence....
Reply:Yes they are extremely expensive. I noticed the term hot wire. Is there cold wire feeders for tigs as well? I haven't seen them.I noticed on a few clips where the wire feed unit was oscillating. Im not sure what that is about either.I thought it would soon take over from tig until i seen their price. I think what 7A749 said is probably true. It must cost alot more in components to make the wire hot. And this oscillating business looks even more expensive. Im not looking to buy one, im just interested in this new process.At the moment it looks only viable for a company that does larger scale work like tanks and vessels or production work I think
Reply:Yeah, I forgot about the oscillation. The wire oscillates too. Makes for a more even distribution into the puddle IIRC. It's been a couple years since then. Thanks for adding that, totally forgot about it.Yeah, they're big, big money. Cold wire feed is the usual standard for wire fed TIG welding. The wire is insulated from the weld current and not electrically charged when it enters the weld pool. CK Systematics makes cold feeders, you can google them and see what they look like. They work well for production TIG welding where high deposition rates are needed.Maybe Rich will take a pic of his rig. Kevin Morin has one too, his uses the little spools almost like a MIG spool gun.
Reply:I would be glad to post a bunch of pics of my "new" setup, later on tonight. Of course, I'm still working on the settings, so I'm far from being a master at it. Kevin, on the other hand, seems to have it down to a science! We have the exact same rigs, except that he has modified his.Rich
Reply:Cool. Look forward to seeing it.I've seen Kevs before. It's quite the unit.
Reply:OK..here are some pics of the gun & control box...More to come...Rich Attached ImagesLast edited by steelsurgeon; 07-21-2015 at 07:51 PM.
Reply:Nice Rich!
Reply:Here it is, hooked up to my Thermal Arc...and a few of my experiments using 1/4" thick T-304 SS...RichLast edited by steelsurgeon; 07-21-2015 at 08:05 PM.
Reply:Here's the first job I'm going to use it on, and here's how I control the amperage...Rich
Reply:And let's not forget who introduced us to this, first...http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?43434-TIG-like-MIGRich
Reply:Man, Kevin is a straight up STUD.Just wack. Kills it
Reply:You're making another one of those exhaust baffles Rich?I can only imagine how much time this will save you.How does that kind of job push the duty cycle on your machine?
Reply:This is a stainless steel cooling chamber that bolts up to the muffle. I have to make 3 of these. I don't know how much it pushes the duty cycle, only because the Tig gun so new to me. I don't think that it'll push it all that much on this job. The Thermal Arc is a 300 amp machine, and I'll probably be welding at 110-120 amps.Rich
Reply:Ok. You made one of these awhile back IIRC. I wonder as to the arc on time you would have on that machine in regards to duty cycle. I sold and repaired several 450 amp inverters to a company that makes tubing. They'll run some jobs at maybe 150 amps, but that machine will run for 8-10 without getting shut off but maybe once or twice to reload material.For the most part, they didn't blow them up doing that.Repeatedly trying to run grinders off the welders 115 outlet smoked quite a few machines tho
Reply:The muffle that I made was Inconel, and it was all hand tigged. I only do this work part-time, so I never weld for a full day. Even if I did, I have faith in my little machine. I've done jobs where I tigged 5/8" thick beveled aluminum with 75/25 HeAr with all 300 amps my machine puts out, and I never exceeded the duty cycle.Even those guys welding for 8-10 (hours/minutes??) they have to come up for air once in a while. That's some recovery time for the machine / duty cycle.Rich
Reply:That thermal arc is a real good machine. They're tough and offer a lot of arc shaping on the AC side.The tubing place runs mostly Maxtron 450s. They have a 100% duty cycle at 450 amps. They have worked the best for their applications and offer a great deal of power in comparison to their size. I kid you not, they're running those 450s on most of their tubing winders at minimum four hours a clip, but most of the time all day long with minimal shutoff time. They generally keep a guy rotated thru breaks to keep them running. When the tube gets to correct length, they plasma cut it off and put them on carts.This is a semi automated process. Once the arc is struck, the machine feeds the material thru a die and is fused together making a continuous spiral wound tube. I want to say they have probably eight Maxtrons. They have a few Syncrowave 250s they use on smaller jobs for thin wall tube. The Maxtrons run the big jobs tho. I've seen them running the 10 ga jobs, stainless around 250 amps and run those machines 8 hours straight, only stopping to change out the material for a new coil. They bought two Maxstar 350s thinking they would handle the bigger jobs, but the duty cycle just wasn't even close for their application. They burned up two of them, then called me for more Maxtrons.It ended up being a good thing for me since I was repairing all their machines and sold them several more too. I'm betting the TIG gun you just got is gonna save you a lot of time on a big job like that.
Reply:WOW!! I never heard of a machine having 100% duty cycle for the full output amperage of the machine!  You're talking about real welding!! I just dabble in comparison to that.250 amps on 10 ga. is pretty impressive, too. The travel speel must be tremendous.So, other people's disasters are your pot of gold...good for you! Somebody's gotta do it.Rich
Reply:Originally Posted by steelsurgeonWOW!! I never heard of a machine having 100% duty cycle for the full output amperage of the machine!  You're talking about real welding!! I just dabble in comparison to that.250 amps on 10 ga. is pretty impressive, too. The travel speel must be tremendous.So, other people's disasters are your pot of gold...good for you! Somebody's gotta do it.Rich
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749Yeah, the Maxtron 450 is kinda in a class by itself. Miller manufactured them for about five years from 1992-1997. They are single/three phase CC/CV DC inverter machines. In CC, they can go as low as 3-5 amps and top out at 565. In CV, they run from 10-38 volts. The only machine Miller sells in comparison to it now would be the three phase only XMT 450, which is a refined version of the Phoenix 456.The tubing place wanted a machine that could handle the high arc on times they were looking for. All they make is tubing, most is spiral welded, but they also have a tube mill with a high frequency welder, and the material literally flies outta that thing. I'm not sure on feed speeds for that thick wall stuff but they could pump it out of those machines at incredible rates. The feed mechanism is hydraulic, and fed the material into a tool steel die. The high duty cycle on the Maxtrons allowed them to run at a high feed rate with higher amperages. It was amazing to watch.I was pretty tight with them for a couple years, and had been doing all their preventative maintenance on their winders and welding machinery. One day in January, the guy I normally dealt with walked up to me and abruptly told me no more maintenance after I was finished with what I was doing. He walked back to his office without any further explanation.Haven't heard from them since.Best make hay while the sun shines. Repairing and selling  Maxtrons has been real good to me. I had several maintenance tutorials posted here, but I accidently deleted all my posts about a month ago and have to post them again. I really like your posts and work. It's very interesting and very well done.
Reply:The stainless Maxtron you did was absolutely beautiful, I've always wanted to re-case a welder in stainless.Thanks. Chris T has it now.I'll be doing another one in the near future. Working on one now, but it'll be basic blue.Expert Garage Hack....https://www.facebook.com/steven.webber.948
Reply:Rich, 7A749,  I've modified the gun to add controls to suit the work I most often do, besides bench welding where a pedal might do for amperage control.I've moved the wire feed speed pot (motor speed control potentiometer) from the back of the gun where it is originally to the side shown here so I can get to it with my thumb.  Then on a drop cord using tape I mounted a pot that matches the TIG power supply's remote amperage rating so I can adjust the heat- like a slider that Rich uses or a pedal.My reason was that I was working on boats, walking or crawling around and facing different welds in different locations, and having to weld in all four different directions during a typical weld out of an aluminum boat.  So a pedal was not mobile enough,  the wire speed had to be adjusted constantly so I moved that pot and put a big knob on it for my thumb. Once I'd added the wire speed pot to the active side, the amperage circuit pot was similar in ergo-metrics so I added that and my work speed moved up 10x because I didn't have to turn the gun over to make wire speed adjustments and I could abandon the  "wire feed delay" timer relay. So trips to the power supply were gone, where climbing in and out of boats, takes a few minutes... and that time was saved, and there was no more yelling at the guys to 'turn it up a little' or down...  now all the controls were on the handle of the gun.I guess the usefulness of this gun isn't as obvious from a purely bench welding point of view?  But used in a boat's weld out- it is very handy to have all the controls there so they can be adjusted while you weld.this weld is 1/4" (lower topsides) to a 0.160" deck on a boat built without full sides until the deck was sealed. Walking around this 'hollow' surf board welding out the deck seam 58' of weld took about an hour to stitch out completely, walking between welds and moving the gun's stretch-out and tooth brushing and all- but no trips to the power supply.This 1/2 (2" sched.40) pipe extrusion was welded to a beveled edge weld already done at the sheer of this boat. No adjusting needed except those on the gun's handle- same filler wire (0.035" 5356)  same 5/32" pure tungsten and the power supply set to 300A, where the pot on the handle is like the pedal for amperage control.drop down below the corner(s) welds and do the overhead; fill the pipe corner either up hill or down hill; all- just wire and heat adjustments.  Walk to the new weld? you can light up and weld without going back to the power supply or turning the gun's wire speed pot on the back of the original equipped torch... and there's not dragging a pedal or fiddling with its position. final seam at the gunwale of the 1/2 pipe to engine well (coaming)  and locker top panels- 1/8" & 0.160" sheet material; and the stitches tie-in OK due to the amperage pot and wire feed being under full control at the beginning and end of each weld.  Again, so all the welding can be done regardless of joint or thicknesses (in a typical boat) with the same filler, tungsten and machine settings; the wire speed to fill and the amperage to weld are just remotely adjusted at the gun by the welder.I regret that OTC America/Dahien USA decided not to sell the gun in the US market anymore ( think they quit about 2002?)  but I guess this torch didn't catch on enough to be worth their efforts?  I like mine and Rich is beginning to like his more as he goes along, so maybe they're just "not for everyone"? type of tools???  [If anyone reading this has a system or just an OTC TIG gun for sale?? I'd make an offer.]Cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK