Making a trailer with 6010?

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Hi All, Am I correct to assume that the 70xx series of electrodes, particularly 7018 didn't come around until sometime mid to late 50's?  Maybe early 60's?  Well then if that's the case, does that mean that military tanks, heavy equipment, farm equipment or someone's "trailer" was built SOLIDLY using 6010 or 6011?  Fast forward a few years later from the 50's and I vividly recall watching my dad's Ford truck getting a trailer hitch receiver welded to the rear end of the frame.   I also remember the rippled "dime" look of the welds as well as the professional welder showing up to our house with his engine driven Lincoln over 50 years ago.  The welder was a friend of my dad and they gave me a welding helmet to crawl under and watch some of it.  Knowing what I know today about being able to easily recognize a 6010/6011 weld and those images burned in my brain because I was so intrigued by it, I'm confident that pro used 6010's for the entire project. My parents pulled a trailer about 26' long (big and heavy in those days).  So I'm  wondering and asking  any of the 7018 nazis out there (I say that jokingly of course), could 6010 still be a viable option for a home built trailer?  Of course with the advent of better electrodes like 7018 today, it would be dumb and probably impractical to use a 60xx rod I'd assume.   But, was it the way it was done back in the old days?   If so, did they have many trailer weld "fails" back then with 6010/6011?  If I had to guess, I'd say "no," they did not and 6010's probably held up to the punishment of hard use rather well.    Or, did they all use some other type of rod back then?  What say you?Last edited by MoonshineMetals; 04-12-2014 at 05:33 AM.
Reply:Have a read:http://www.keytometals.com/page.aspx...ite=kts&NM=186As to your original questionhttp://www.google.com/patents/US2737150Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonshineMetalsWhat say you?
Reply:For the sake of argument...............5P, and 5P+, are both Charpy rated.These type of rods are favored in the railroad repair shops for use on rolling stock.  I used to watch them work on container cars when I was at the ramp picking up containers, and piggybacks.  Very good penetration where rust is an issue.  Those rr cars make little tagalong trailers look like toys  They get a beating.I have a pretty good selection of heavy tillage equipment made in the 1940-1950s range, and it's all welded (where not bolted or riveted) with what appears to be 6010/6011.  And it's pretty solid stuff that absorbs a huge amount of abuse without disintegrating.Thinner materials might be better off with 7018 because it's more ductile(I assume), but I'd feel confident that 6010/6011 wouldn't leave you sitting on the side of the road.A neighbor, up the highway, extended a 40' flatbed semi trailer using the stuff, and it's still running up and down the roads between here and Kansas every year.  Dunno how many millions of pounds of hay that thing has hauled."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:And why is everyone so anal about trailers??????????????  Just a stinkin' table on wheels"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Nope nothing in the world wrong with 60-series welding rod, in the correct application. Pictures won't stay in the proper order.  Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I often wonder if the benefits of 7018 are really needed for some applications? Does anyone here have experience with having welded something (tractor, hay wagon, trailer, etc.) with 60XX only to have it fail, then weld it with 7018 and have it make the difference?Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:Yes IMO 7018 is better for trailers than 6010... There's a trailer or two in my backyard welded with 6010, made around 20 years ago and they are still fine. My dad made them.  6010/6011 was used allot in ship yards for welding all kinds of joints, its what my dad did for years.A properly made weld with any type of electrode will be fine for most applications.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Ha, I wondered about  the same thing.  I thought before the advent of 7018,  it was safe to assume  that "6010" and the rest of the "60xx series" of electrodes kept western civilization's trucks, tractors and farm equipment glued together and without failure.  After some personal research for no particular reason, I found some interesting stuff about the topic and it relates to Moonshine's questions.  I know many experienced guys here already probably know this stuff below to be "common knowledge."   Here it goes for the uninformed: In the book, "Metals and how to weld them" by the James F. Lincoln Arc welding foundation ©1952, 1964, it lists all of the 60-series of electrodes from yester-year, with a detailed explanation of each one's particular use.  The book doesn't list any 70xx series of electrodes as I don't think they yet existed ('50s).  Many of these electrodes are now "extinct," due to the advent of superior 70xx series electrodes.    They are (were) as follows: 60xx -10 -11 -12 -13 -14 -15 -16 -18 -20 -24 -27 & -28.  So even back in the "day," ('40's, '50's & '60's)  they had "6018" as well as "6028"  which were "low hydrogen."   (**Note: surprisingly, 6022 is NOT listed in the book.  It may have been developed post-1964, after the last updated publishing of the book, however it's  still exists and is manufactured  to this day).  This book states:      "Mechanical properties (including impact strength) of low hydrogen electrodes are superior to those of E-6010 electrodes that deposit weld metal of similar composition.  Use of low-hydrogen electrodes reduces the preheat and post heat of welds, thus making for better welding conditions and...(Pg 97).I think though that the average farmer/rancher, high school welding student, home garage mechanic and everyone's  "Grandpa"  as well as many today, fixed everything (including critical stuff like trailers and hitches) with 6010 or 6011.  In other words, they fixed or made stuff with the predominant and most common NON low-hy electrodes of 6010/6011).  I'm sure much of their heavy equipment with those welds outlasted themselves and some of that equipment is probably holding up to this day.FWIW and more worthless information,  I believe these are the only existing 60xx series electrodes  currently manufactured today: 10, 11, 12, 13, 22, 27.  All currently made by at least one of these manufacturers: Lincoln Electric, Washington Alloy and Hobart.Cheers. Last edited by SuperArc; 04-13-2014 at 02:11 AM.Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life Member
Reply:I'd rather see something like a trailer done by a skilled welder using 6010/11 vs someone who makes bubble gum welds with say 7018.I think 7018 is called out many times simply out of laziness on the part of architects and engineers, though I'm sure liability plays a part in this as well today. There's so much off the shelf ready to go info on 7018 that an architect or engineer can simply pull off a chart if they have to put down specs on something. Most that I've talked to really don't have much of a clue when it comes to welding. The other thing is that so many codes are written with 7018 being called out that selecting any other rod leaves you open for questioning in court should you get wrapped up in a liability case. It won't matter if the fault lies with the poor welds, you can bet the lawyers will  demand to know why you selected something else over the "standard", even if your choice was clearly strong enough..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Just remember most pipeline weld is 6010 or 7010 1/8 , 5/32 , 3/16 . No tiny 3/32.  You guys beating stuff apart with sledges are nuts. Any rod is stronger than base metals.Yes we weld bridges with 7018 and 8018 C3 and submerged arc only.Dont try and weld with fine wire mig and flux core in New York State you will have a hard time and lots of expense to prequalify if even allowed. For self shielded flux core Lincoln NS-3M welded tlns of excavating machinery and columns of buildings before the earthquake and took a bad rap for cracking. It is still around and in.  120 will blow away anything other than submerged arc for weld deposition. Yes weld your trailer with any rod it will work and be safe the crap steel used in light trailers is not even A-36 in many cases.
Reply:Originally Posted by PavinsteelmanYou guys beating stuff apart with sledges are nuts.
Reply:Sorry about that . Now for the real world our old CWI is up on the Tappan Zee Bridge and is testing for dockbuilder welders for Traylor Bros 500 so far 50 passed, now into ironworkers a little better but not by much.The people today watch you tube and go for a test . He did the welder qualification for DCM testing for the trade center 800 for 115 passing. The funny thing the cassons they are splicing in NJDOT land would not be tested at all as they are considered formwork . So much for NYState Steel Construction Manual.
Reply:PS the only sledge testing is shear studs.
Reply:It's in my nature to beat on things! Oh boy, Traylor Bros has a very bad name in these parts. Look what they did to us. Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:i was using half clamps to put tension (compression?) on a large weldment on my bench. i was using one inch tacks with 6010 and really socking the clamp threads down. after a short while(probably when they cooled) they cracked. i switched to 7018 and they held till i rocked them loose. i don't know exactly what that proves but i thought it was interesting at the time.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:I fix a lot of farm equipment that has been welded with 60 series rods. It just isn't the right rod for that. The elongation factor of the 7018 is much better than any 60 series rods and can make the difference in a weld lasting through heavy duty use. Almost any weldor that has been welding a long time on lots of different stuff has had experiences that let him know that it is the right rod when it counts.
Reply:For welding anything critical that takes a beating, serious and frequent flexing, jolting or whatever, Ill always use 7018.  Then again, I wouldn't put myself in a position to weld something so critical to begin with, due to a lack of training for that stuff.  However, I've welded ON a quad/ATV trailer (limited to gate hinges and side railings) with 7018.  I've made some tools for 4-wheeling, metal bending and heavy gates (plural) all with 7018 (and some L-56 "Super Arc" on the side as well ).  I think that the 6018's of the 50's were more than likely far superior in shock loads, impacts and shearing than 6010's. The 6010 probably hasn't changed that much and if it did, it's probably the "7010's" that some pipeliners  use to this day.  Being the forever astute welding student that I am and constantly striving to improve my abilities, there's one thing I've learned.   That is that there's more welding "hacks" all around us that don't understand their own fabricating limitations and misuse 6010/6011 for many projects and jobs. So,wear  your helmets and don't forget to have your organ donor cards filled out!  Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life Member
Reply:The mechanicals (all of them) on a properly made 6010 weld will far exceed the mechanicals of any common mild steel structural beam, channel, angle or tube/pipe in use today.LoHi came about toward the middle to end of WWII for the high strength low alloy steels. They were slower to enter the building trades work. The problem is finding welders who regularly qualify using any of the cellulosic rods, they exist mainly in pipeline world, a very small slice of the pie. For what it's worth those rods are available in 60, 70, 80 series. 7018 is the most easy to run consumable for beginers and has good mechanicals no doubt. But the cellulosic rods, run by a professional, will leave you a joint that's mucho better than your parent material (in every aspect) until you get up into 100ksi steels and very, very few structural applications will ever come close to that.It's uncommon in standard structural these days but can and does work very well in some sectors.People who can't run the cellulosics, always dog on the cellulosics. We've made quite a bit of a good living with them but we have to qualify our procedures, qualify the welders, and understand how to run them.J
Reply:Seems to me that the Liberty Ships were the first all welded vessels, and they held up very well.  There were some issues with cracking, but it was zeroed down to the type of steel, and joint design, I believe.  And it WAS 60xx they were using back then.  The problem was never attributed to the consumables as far as I know."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I know myself as a structural welder, and I've seen the same problem with other structural welders, is we have a tendency to run 6010 / 11 too hot. I've seen 6010 welds made by structural welders you could trip over the dingle berries! Welders who know how to run 6010 make it look like a work of art.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammSeems to me that the Liberty Ships were the first all welded vessels, and they held up very well.  There were some issues with cracking, but it was zeroed down to the type of steel, and joint design, I believe.  And it WAS 60xx they were using back then.  The problem was never attributed to the consumables as far as I know.
Reply:But look how times have changed. I think it was the Carquinez Bridge in California was the first all welded bridge in the state of California. The public went up in arms, they felt the bridge was not safe. State had rivet plates made up, and tack welded at every connection. Then the public thought they were as safe as being in the Lord's pocket! Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Fake rivet plates - awesome Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749I've built more stuff than I can remember from 6010 good 'ol brick red.Many, many millions of miles of pipe as well as structural stuff was welded entirely out with cellulose rod for decades before LoHi came along & as JT mentioned, still a staple of a lot of pipe welding today. In most all general instances, it's what's between the shoulder & the holder that really counts.Of course, I wouldn't post any pix of the trailers I've built using 6010 for fear of the endless criticism of AAACE members that is sure to ensue28 years ago 6010....and mud and sawgrass and skeeterchit. Been stuck and yanked out from all directions and yanked out others from everywhere you can hook a chain. Hasn't broke a weld yet.It's sitting 300 yards from the Oasis Ranger station, ready for another 30.7018 and the Big Cypress don't play well together.The tube is all brazed EMT. No breaks.Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammAnd why is everyone so anal about trailers??????????????  Just a stinkin' table on wheels