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Hi all,I built a water cooler to carry on my rig based on a design I found on the forum here using a soda fountain carbonator, pump and tank. It uses a procom pump identical to the ones used on commercial jobs. It cost about $125 in parts. I have been using it for several months now with no issue until the last few jobs. I normally run around 140 amps on a 250 amp torch welding on various aluminum projects, mostly repair like an engine block, valve cover, etc.A few days ago I had to crank it up to around 180 - 200 amps to do some modifications on an aluminum dump trailer. I had to put some 3/8" stiffeners on the front rail where the ram pushes against the frame to tilt it up. This stopped the rail from bending back from the force. However due to heat dissipation, I had to crank up the amps and use a torch to pre heat the aluminum prior to welding. It worked great for about an hour and just as I was putting the last 1/2" or so of weld on one of the stiffeners the hose burst, I lost the coolant and the power cord burnt up ( I was able to finish the weld though). The tank was hot to the touch indicating that the water may not have been getting cooled sufficiently. I carry aluminum stick welding rods and was able to finish some minor welds with it and finish the job.I would like to keep the home made cooler as its relatively compact but am wondering where I need to tweak it to prevent this from happening again. I noticed that the clear water return line actually burst which means that I must have exceeded its temperature rating which I think is around 175 degrees.Do I need a larger tank, larger radiator or both? I am also open to that I may have built up steam in the line and that is what burst it. Is there a type of hose that has a higher temperature rating? Maybe that will allow me to operate on higher amperage?Any thoughts on how to proceed will be greatly appreciated?Thanks,Tony
Reply:With no shroud on your fan and being mounted that far away from the radiator you are probably getting very little if any actual air flow through it which would eventually lead to overheated cooling water.
Reply:Originally Posted by Comp ChassisWith no shroud on your fan and being mounted that far away from the radiator you are probably getting very little if any actual air flow through it which would eventually lead to overheated cooling water.
Reply:Once it gets overheated the water just turns to steam and with amperage up like you have it only takes seconds to go POOF!..You need COLD water at ALL times!...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Shroud the fan and use rubber hoseMiller Xmt 350Lincoln Ln-25Ahp 200xSmith Gas Mixer AR/HTig is my Kung FuThrowing down dimes and weaving aboutInstagram http://instagram.com/[email protected]
Reply:I use the ribbed green welding water hose on my homebuilt cooler. I also have a visible return on the unit. I also have a Bernard 2500 cooler. I installed a pressure gauge on each of the coolers to ensure that there is flow. Is your tank vented to atmosphere? It should be.Miller Millermatic 252Miller Syncrowave 200Liincoln AC-DC 225Victor O-A Set
Reply:Thanks for the suggestions you guys. To answer one question for "squirmypug": I use leather to cover my hoses. There is a Tandy Leather shop near me and I buy the cheapest, soft leather piece that will give me enough strips cut from it to reach the 25' length of my torch. I've made several of these over the years for my tig welders, plasma cutter and spool gun and they averaged about $20 each. I tie them with either electrical tape or zip ties. The down side to this is that when it comes time to repair or maintain the hoses, I'm looking at a several hour affair as each one must be cut and put back one by one.If you try this, beware that there is a type of leather that is very pliable but will get real hard and stiff when it drys after getting wet. You can't tell until it happens so ask before buying. Also to get the best price when going after a sale item (which is what I always do), you may have to settle on a color that might make you think twice about buying it. Like a purple, green or pink leather. Oh well......... These things cost well near $100 bucks normally so I'm not shy about the color I get.I am going to locate a long zipper and the help of a friend who sews build a regular zippered cover. It will save so much time and hassle. The average strip I can cut from a piece of leather is about 5 feet at a time. I get about 5 lengths or so from a piece of leather. So I will sew them together to make one long one and then sew the zipper on them to make a wear resistant cover that is easy to remove when needed. I will look for a metal zipper as I have already gone through several of those nylon covers that have nylon zippers that get ruined as soon as a hot slag drips on them and melts them.Back to the cooler:When I went to the hardware store to buy some more hose, I noticed that the operating temperature of was 70 degrees, not 175 as I had mentioned. Also it was rated at 55 psi. I think the pressure and heat burst the hose as it had exceeded both tolerances. I picked up some braided hose and am going to see if I can get that to work. Its rated for 200 psi and 70 degrees. However the power cable itself is made of vinyl and I imagine it has a much lower bursting pressure. I'm hoping this braided stuff will stand up to the heat/pressure.qnm109:I will look into that green braided stuff you mention at my local supplier. What type of clear return hose do you use and where is it available? Also where did you install the pressure gauge and what pressure are you looking as your threshold? Do I just "T" it into the output side of the line going into the torch?Regarding the shroud, will a simple cardboard cut to shape work? Do I just shroud the fan or make it so it covers around the perimeter of the radiator and taper down to the fan? If I got a larger fan, would it be better or do you guys think I'm good with the current setup?Thanks,TonyLast edited by therrera; 04-06-2014 at 04:42 PM.Reason: to add more info.
Reply:Is the fan pushing air or pulling air?
Reply:Its pushing the air.
Reply:Tony, try to find a hose that has a higher heat rating. 70* is very low.. thats about room temperature without any welding. Also if the fluid is getting hot during welding try a bigger heat exchanger, a fan that moves more cfm and a bigger fluid reservoir
Reply:qnm109:I will look into that green braided stuff you mention at my local supplier. What type of clear return hose do you use and where is it available? Also where did you install the pressure gauge and what pressure are you looking as your threshold? Do I just "T" it into the output side of the line going into the torch?
Reply:I thought about a larger reservoir and may switch over to a plastic, rectangular one that fits inside the frame I've built for it. Also the tank has a hand operated vent near the top and when I fill it I keep it open so that I know when the tank if full. You can see it in the picture, it is a little red handled thing. Are you saying I need to leave that vent open? Is this what might have kept the pressure down in the line by allowing the system to vent? Sounds like it. Never thought of that. So I would close it when rolling and open it when stationary and about to fire up the welder. Right?I guess I'll look for a larger fan as well. I have more room to play with so I could go larger without an issue that I can see. What type of gauges are those? Where are they available? Are these the type of gauges that plumbers use to test water lines? My tank is small compared to the Bernard (I use one on my shop welder). Its about a two gallon tank.Thanks for the suggestions. Thanks,TonyLast edited by therrera; 04-06-2014 at 05:35 PM.Reason: To add more info.
Reply:I would shroud it like a car radiator...from the edges of the radiator, down to the circular shape of the fan.Also, based on the size of the radiator, that seems like a small fan (if you think about the sort of fan usually used on a car radiator). It looks like you could almost fit 4 of those fans across the front of the radiator...which would give you much better air flow (I'd still shroud them, though, and consider turning them around, so they 'pull,' instead of push.Overall, you've got a great idea there. For increased cooling power, I think a larger radiator/larger fan would be the way to go. You would have to SIGNIFICANTLY increase the volume of water to increase cooling by having a larger reservoir. In car engines, they don't increase the 'reservoir.' They basically have enough to fill the radiator, hoses, and cooling channels in the engine.Another issue could be sediment, etc. in the radiator. I had a nearly-unused radiator on a 20-year old van, which would overheat routinely. As soon as we replaced it with a new radiator, the problem went away (the sediment and build up inside the radiator was decreasing the ability of the radiator to cool.)You could use cardboard to shroud the radiator (you won't be getting anywhere near the 451 degrees you need to ignite paper/cardboard...you will be below steam temperatures, of 212). I'd use sheet metal, but that is what I 'do.' You could make a basic shroud out of thinner aluminum plate, and weld the edges together, if you don't have the capabilities to bend and shear sheet.KevKevin / Machine_Punk from The Aerodrome Studio - Lincoln PowerMIG 210 MP - Meco N Midget w/custom welding station - Vintage Victor 100Current Projects: The Aerodrome Studio
Reply:Originally Posted by therreraI thought about a larger reservoir and may switch over to a plastic, rectangular one that fits inside the frame I've built for it. Also the tank has a hand operated vent near the top and when I fill it I keep it open so that I know when the tank if full. You can see it in the picture, it is a little red handled thing. Are you saying I need to leave that vent open? Is this what might have kept the pressure down in the line by allowing the system to vent? Sounds like it. Never thought of that. So I would close it when rolling and open it when stationary and about to fire up the welder. Right?I guess I'll look for a larger fan as well. I have more room to play with so I could go larger without an issue that I can see. What type of gauges are those? Where are they available? Are these the type of gauges that plumbers use to test water lines? My tank is small compared to the Bernard (I use one on my shop welder). Its about a two gallon tank.Thanks for the suggestions. Thanks,Tony
Reply:Originally Posted by therreraIts about a two gallon tank.Thanks for the suggestions. Thanks,Tony
Reply:What welder are you using? Is it one that has the ac wave balance at 50/50%? This will put an enormous amount of heat into the torch. The more positive you set the wave balance the less welding you're doing and the more torch heating you're doing.Measure the flow in fl oz per minute by dumping the return line into a measuring cup for 1 minute and post the results.Weld for a wgile and see how hot the water going into the feed is.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Tony,If your looking for a bigger reservoir, Cornelius kegs for home brewing aren't too expensive and are 5 gallon stainless steel containers. That's what I intended to use until I came across my cooler for a ridiculous price on eBay. I'd agree with a larger fan with shroud that's set up to PULL. Looks like whatever air that little fan is moving is being pulled right through a hot electrical motor.
Reply:Hi,I'm running a Trailblazer 250NT through an external High Frequency box. For aluminum I run it on AC for ferrous and stainless I run in straight polarity. I just swapped out my return lines with braided type which has a pressure limit of 150 psi and working temperature of 70 degrees. I think this alone will stop the line from bursting however I will still need to work on getting the water cooler. I also added a pressure gauge to the setup and it runs steady at 50psi. I will search out a larger fan to put in place of the one on the cooler now and install it so it pulls air instead of pushing it. Then I'll rig up a shroud as suggested.Regarding measuring the flow in fl oz per minute. I think this thing is running at gallons per minute. I forgot to connect the return line while I was hooking the cooler back together and fired it up for about five seconds as water shot up in a strong stream from it. I refilled it and it took a medium sauce pan and a half of water to replace the lost fluid. In a minute, I think it will empty the tank.I welded with it for about 1/2 hour with the new hoses and afterwards felt the tank and it was starting to get warm. I was running about 160 amps continuously.Thanks,Tony
Reply:I would shroud your fans, but with a few suggestions. Make sure you leave yourself a minimum of 2" or so between your fan and the radiator. Next you need more room on the intake side (opposite of the rad) of your fan. I would keep a pusher fan, they are generally more efficient, but move it opposite side of the rad so you are not drawing any preheat air from your pump motor, might not seem like much, but it is. And yea keep the volume tank vented. Anything else let me know... I have designed ALOT of heat exchangers over the years big and small.TOOLS AND TOYSSMAW Mid States Inc. "MISSING LINK" 10-150 AMP Buzzer circa 1945ishSMAW Magic Wand 40-60 AMP Suitcase Buzzer circa 1939ishGMAW Hobart 210 IronmanOxy-Propane TorchMany other old and cold goodies"Rusty but Trusty"
Reply:It is no surprise that that PE tubing failed when it got hot. You can get PEX in the same sizes, and it is much stronger. I use that same clear hose on the return side.
Reply:I located a larger, stronger fan at www.surpluscenter.com and just ordered it. It is almost six inches square. The radiator is about 7" square so it will take up almost the entire cooling surface of it. That should significantly increase my air / cooling flow, knock on wood. Next weekend I will take the cooler apart and move the entire assembly back an inch and move the fan and radiator mounts back as well so I can mount the fan in front of the radiator and still be inside the expanded metal enclosure.here is the link to the fan:http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electri...RE-16-1367.axdI'll post some picture of the end result.Thanks,Tony
Reply:When running that kind of heat things get hot in a hurry. Here's some pics of my coolant temperature when I was running 230 amps with my Dynasty 280 a few weeks ago. Keep in mind that I was running about 75% cleaning rather than the 50% cleaning you're forced to run with the Trailblazer (makes more heat in the torch). This is with a Bernard cooler with a large very noisy fan. I also found I needed to up my pressure relief pressure since once the coolant was hot the pressure dropped going into the torch.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Check that the screen in the pump body is not clogged also. (it's under the large acorn nut on the pump) Jim
Reply:Originally Posted by irish fixit I was running about 75% cleaning rather than the 50% cleaning you're forced to run with the Trailblazer (makes more heat in the torch). .
Reply:Yeah that's what I mean. With a Trailblazer he's stuck with 50/50 balance, and sine wave. It's old school.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htmGetting better water flow would not hurt either. PC radiator pumps run 4-6 lpm, but the torch is probably 1 lpm. So another pump could help, depending upon the core being used. Running hotter water also increases the rate of cooling by the radiator of course. What if the hose just burst open from mechanical failure? Where did it fail again? Near the torch or the cooler? I guess if it boils anywhere in the circuit it will blow out the weakest spot. The cooler end probably gets worked pretty hard in bending. Nonetheless I would seriously beef up the airflow and couple it to the radiator better. Two gallons is not really enough for extended welding at that amperage without an effective cooler, especially at 50% EN. I can get two gallons pretty hot on thinner aluminum at 75% EN with a Dynasty 200.Last edited by atg; 04-08-2014 at 08:15 PM.
Reply:You can't run anywhere near 4-6lph. This cooling system is much different than pc cooling setups, they have a long restrictive hose and a 1/8" or so hole in the torch. To push 4-6lpm you'd have to push the water through with so much pressure the lines would just rupture. you're onlyl going to get 1 lpm, you just need to remove the heat better. This will require lots of airflow and might require a longer radiator path to allow the water longer time to cool down (one where the core snakes back and forth).Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:FWIW, CK Worldwide calls for 1 liter per minute of coolant flow in their 20 series torches. I get that much with my municipal water hooked right to my 25' superflex leads, and my water is only at 15-20 psi here.So you shouldn't need more flow than that.
Reply:You are assuming the torch and tank are plumbed in series with a single pump. PC pumps are cheap used online and one could easily be rigged between the tank and the radiator to provide a higher flow rate for cooling the tank than the flow rate supplied by the Procon for cooling the torch, using two independent loops. A shroud is definitely the easiest first step to take, but more air will enhance the benefit of more water flow also. More water flow through the radiator would certainly enhance the cooling capacity of the rig and would not cost much more to achieve than a new fan.Last edited by atg; 04-09-2014 at 01:13 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by atgYou are assuming the torch and tank are plumbed in series with a single pump. PC pumps are cheap used online and one could easily be rigged between the tank and the radiator to provide a higher flow rate for cooling the tank than the flow rate supplied by the Procon for cooling the torch, using two independent loops. A shroud is definitely the easiest first step to take, but more air will enhance the benefit of more water flow also. More water flow through the radiator would certainly enhance the cooling capacity of the rig and would not cost much more to achieve than a new fan.
Reply:The difference between running the torch return to the radiator vs the tank diminishes as the reservoir volume decreases. In any event it seems like a temporally dynamic difference, as given sufficient time, and without any formal analysis, the reservoir will eventually equilibrate at a similar temperature with either method. The tank will radiate the difference between the steady state radiator dissipation in one case vs the other. But this is only a hunch and I would love to be corrected by a formally correct treatment of the problem.
Reply:Originally Posted by atg the reservoir will eventually equilibrate at a similar temperature with either method
Reply:Originally Posted by therreraI located a larger, stronger fan at www.surpluscenter.com and just ordered it. It is almost six inches square. The radiator is about 7" square so it will take up almost the entire cooling surface of it. That should significantly increase my air / cooling flow, knock on wood. Next weekend I will take the cooler apart and move the entire assembly back an inch and move the fan and radiator mounts back as well so I can mount the fan in front of the radiator and still be inside the expanded metal enclosure.here is the link to the fan:http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electri...RE-16-1367.axd
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinI hate to pee on your parade, but I don't think 200 cfm is gonna cut it with the welder you're using. I'd want at least double that.Look on ebay for centrifugal squirrel cage fans, you can often get surplus stuff cheap.
Reply:I'm trying to trace your cooler lines. Your DINSE connector line/power cable should be the return line. The other two lines should be the pressure line and the gas line. The return water cools the cable. Is this what you have? The discharge side also should have a larger diameter hose if possible.Last edited by lugweld; 04-09-2014 at 08:35 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by rlitmanI'm not so sure. Remember that the heat transfer from the radiator to the air will be more efficient when the radiator is hotter. Not necessarily with a higher flow through the radiator.
Reply:I assume that the radiator a split tank design? If not, with both hoses on top, water is just going straight into the tank on top and right back out the other side without going through the core. Most simple radiators have the hoses on opposite tanks to eliminate that problem but sometimes the tank is split between hoses to force it across and back.As others have said, assuming no other major problem (like low flow from blockage or pump), lack of airflow due to no shroud (a really big deal) and weak fan are likely the main issues.
Reply:Yea that radiator is a 2 pass design. If you could find a front to back 2 pass you would be better off than a side to side design. Front to back are more efficient. Also keep you flow up as high as you dare, slowing the water flow sounds like the answer but it isn't. Faster water flow churns and mixes as it flows getting rid of heat fast.TOOLS AND TOYSSMAW Mid States Inc. "MISSING LINK" 10-150 AMP Buzzer circa 1945ishSMAW Magic Wand 40-60 AMP Suitcase Buzzer circa 1939ishGMAW Hobart 210 IronmanOxy-Propane TorchMany other old and cold goodies"Rusty but Trusty"
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255FWIW, CK Worldwide calls for 1 liter per minute of coolant flow in their 20 series torches. I get that much with my municipal water hooked right to my 25' superflex leads, and my water is only at 15-20 psi here.So you shouldn't need more flow than that.
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeGyverI bet you don't if you'll go take a real measurement.I just went out and measured my CK 20 series flex head with 25ft superflex leads and got .75 liters in 1 minute with the gauge showing 65psi. This has always been enough to keep it cool for me... 2 gallon aluminum tank and no radiator or fan.For the original poster, you can't increase flow rate, and you are stuck with a relativelt low delta temperature. You need more airflow and more radiators in series. A longer radiator path will give the water longer to cool down. If you get a really powerful axial fan you can put radiator on each side of it, in direct contact.
Reply:Ok but did you measure the water pressure before you did it? 20psi sounds very low. I wonder if the torch passages can get clogged up over time with scale. Perhaps that could account for the difference in flow rates.
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeGyverI just went out and measured my CK 20 series flex head with 25ft superflex leads and got .75 liters in 1 minute with the gauge showing 65psi. This has always been enough to keep it cool for me... 2 gallon aluminum tank and no radiator or fan.
Reply:MikeG it also occurred to me that your quick release fittings may restrict the torch flow significantly. FYI everyone this dude is pretty fun to read on small radiators, pumps, etc. http://martinsliquidlab.petrastech.c...re-Review.html
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldI'm trying to trace your cooler lines. Your DINSE connector line/power cable should be the return line. The other two lines should be the pressure line and the gas line. The return water cools the cable. Is this what you have? The discharge side also should have a larger diameter hose if possible.
Reply:Being around this stuff for 35 + years I have adopted a belief that sometimes just spending the money for a good tool is better than dealing with disappointment because Im trying to save a buck......Catch my drift? Just spring for a store bought cooler and forget it.... Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Originally Posted by B_CBeing around this stuff for 35 + years I have adopted a belief that sometimes just spending the money for a good tool is better than dealing with disappointment because Im trying to save a buck......Catch my drift? Just spring for a store bought cooler and forget it....
Reply:Hi all of you and thanks for so much feedback and discussion. I got the larger fan Thursday and modified my original setup to accommodate it and push the air into the radiator from the outside in, the opposite from how I had it. I also shrouded it with cardboard and duct tape.I went out on a service call Friday to weld on an old pontoon boat for about three hours of almost continuous welding. I had my machine set for 140 amps and had to floor it several times during the operation. The tank got hot just like when the line burst on me. The original line burst about half way along the path from the torch back to the cooler. The braided lines held fast though. During operation I felt for air flow from the fan into the radiator and felt almost nothing.Is it possible that the radiator I obtained has too narrow openings between the cooling tubes and restricts the air flow through them? It sure felt that way. Before when I checked the air flow by hand I only put by hand in front of the fan as it pushed air into the radiator. I would do this before each welding job to make sure the fan was operational and I always felt air flow. It never dawned on me to check how much was being pushed into the radiator by checking for air flow on the outside of the radiator. Because of the shroud I couldn't put my hand in front of it to feel it pushing air as in the old setup. I just went out and checked my plumbing and I am setup according to the diagram posted. My pump's output is plumbed feeding the torch's braided hose and the power cable hose is on the return side which then goes into the radiator which then goes to the tank. The input side of the pump is plumed to the tank sucking water from it. So the only difference between my setup and the drawing is the addition of the radiator that cools the water before returning to the tank. The drawing shows the return line going directly into the tank (as there is no radiator involved there).I may be wrong but my gut feeling is that my radiator is too restricted to allow for good air flow. My welding rig is an old Mercedes Unimog which I upgraded with a Ford 300ci straight six which doubled my horsepower. To do this I had to eliminate the fan in order to accommodate the longer engine and go with an electric fan. When the fan is running I can feel the air being pushed through the radiator when I put my hand on the opposite side. Not so with this radiator / fan setup.Is this a possibility? I was operating at a medium setting on my Trailblazer. If I had to crank it up again like on that job that burst the line, I'm afraid I may run into the same problem maybe not as soon.Larger fan? Finally if I could dish out $400 to $500 for a used cooler I'd do it in a heartbeat. For me that is a major expense. I could always fall back on my air cooled torch but its so big and clumsy compared to the water cooled one, I would hate to have to live with that. In the shots you can see the old setup compared to the new one.Thanks,Tony
Reply:I think the main thing is a bigger better radiator myself. You might look into transmission coolers. A large one would be about right for this. Even better would be if you could find space for a old air conditioner condenser off a car. Say mount it in the ceiling of one of the compartments. Just brainstorming here but I'm thinking mount it at a angle with one end up tight against the corner and the other side with room for two or three fans like you have above. Seal it to the roof of the compartment so the fans pull the air through the radiator and out the side. The reason for pulling is since you're in the desert the roof of the compartment will get hot and you don't want to add that heat to the radiator. I just thought of something else that might help. Axial fans like that work well to move air but not very well for pushing air through a restriction. I assume that's a heater core out of some car. That would of had air blown through it with a squirrel cage fan. Going with a fan like that might help as well.Last edited by irish fixit; 04-12-2014 at 04:52 PM.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:you can use fans like that, but you have to use the right ones. This chart shows actual performance numbers for several models like the one you are using. I would pick one with at least 60 cfm as measured on the chart. you don't care about noise. if you need more static pressure get two and stack them. they will be loud. http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/9652/fantable124.png
Reply:you may need a better heater core like a 77 bonneville one for $29 from Napa, but get the airflow sorted out first. |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:28:31