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One of the things I am looking to get is a fixture table. I've spent countless hours/days researching all of the different kinds of tables out there and their capabilities. Finally after it was all said and done I decided I am set on the $28,000 bluco table (tooling included). Because of the high price I've decided to see what was involved in making one and then buying their tooling. I'm trying to break this down into steps and I believe that if I do things in the correct order I should be able to make the table. Whether it is going to be cost effective I have yet to find out. I'd like to lay out what, in my mind, are the proper steps and then I'd be interested in seeing what you guys think.Heres a picture of one of their tables...http://bluco.com/wp-content/uploads/...-Pricing-3.jpgHere is what the table features:-steel hardened to 55Rc-three dimensions-flatness of less than .006-a grid of holes on all five sides that are within .001Here is my plan to build this table. Lets say that it will have a length of 7', a width of 4', a depth of 1' and minimum thickness of 1"I will buy 1-1/4" steel plate and cut them into five pieces and prep them for weld. As accurately as I can I'll weld them all together. All of the prep for welds on the out side will include a bevel for a partial penetration and all of the welds inside will be a minimum of a 5/16 fillet weld. Any outside welds will be ground smooth.After I've completed the above I should now have the basic three dimensional table in raw form. It will, by no means, be flat and I will have fabricated it to be about a 1/2" bigger in all directions. What follows are the steps that, in my mind, are the steps I need to do. I have no experience or knowledge in knowing whether or not my plan is correct.1) bring the table to get it heat treated to 55Rc2) find a shop that is capable of grinding the table flat and down to the final dimensions3) have the holes drilled by a cnc machine on all five sidesI have concerns with the grinding. I anticipate that I may have to travel quite a distance to find a machine to grind (blanchard?) a table of that size. Will they be able to grind it down to the flatness I am looking for on all five sides? Will they be able to not only get the table down to the final 7'X 4' X 1' dimensions yet ensure that the sides will be exactly 90 degrees with the top?I have concerns with the drilling of the holes. Will this table fit inside a machine that can drill on all five sides to the specified accuracy? Will the table distort after this? I feel that the drilling has to be done last because any grinding done afterwards would reduce the overall size of the table slightly unless it had been left oversized after the first grinding and then grinded down to final size as the last and final step.Another option I have is using my magnetic hougen drill. I can coat the table in dykem and come up with a very accurate layout, center punch my marks and then drill them with their annular cutter bits which make nice holes. Going this route I know that I will never be able to get it as spot on as a cnc.For simplicity I left out welding any gussets or the connections where the legs will bolt to which will be done in the beginning before any machine work is done. I've posted this on another forum but then realized this is where I need to be asking these questions! I'm looking forward to see what you guys think, if there is a better way and where might I find a place or places that are capable of doing what I need. I live in Northern New Jersey, very close to New York and Connecticut. Thanks!
Reply:66myndAre you going to make your future table mobile/wheels?Opus.Last edited by OPUS FERRO; 07-19-2015 at 10:40 PM.Reason: The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later.
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERRO66myndAre you going to make your future table mobile/wheels?Opus.
Reply:If you are going to build the exact table that they already sell there is no way you can build it cheaper or better. It will cost 3x as much if you figure your time is worth anything. Finding a shop that has the machinery to do the grinding will be difficult, not just grinding the top but also the sides, those shops just don't exist everywhere. Finding a shop that has the machinery, is willing to do the work to the specified accuracy, and for the price you think is fair will be near impossible. Unless you are a big client, the heat treating will also be expensive and difficult to source. Finding a shop that can fit a 7' x 4' piece of steel into a machine and drill the holes on five sides to +/- .001 will also be difficult and expensive to source. Most likely all of these places won't be located in the same spot so you are going to have to cart around a 1 ton piece of steel all over the NE. If you can buy it you should because it can't be built any cheaper unless you have the machinery, material, etc. Sometimes it doesn't work out like that but in this case it does. Moving and machining a piece of steel this size is a lot different that picking up a part and slapping it on a Bridgeport table. I know 2 people that have Bluco tables, while they are nice, neither of those people need the accuracy those table provide. There is something to be said about having a super flat table but if you don't have the work to justify it it's just a huge money pit. The specialized tooling is not affordable unless you have a ton of work for that specific piece. If you want an awesome welding table at 1/4 the cost you should look at WeldSale platens. You can they take the leftover 30K and buy a ton of other pieces of machinery that are needed for a complete fabrication shop. Weldsale platens are flat and heavy and you can build all the same fixturing for it as you can the Bluco. Just my $.02
Reply:Sometimes one needs to accept their limitations. We would all like to have the very best for the absolute minimum cost, but when we look at all the hidden costs, we realize we just have to bite the bullet and make do with what we have.Good luck, maybe you can pick up a useable able at auction.I offer three choices: Good, Fast, & Cheap. You may pick two.Hobart AC/DC StikMate LXHarbor Freight AD HoodHarbor Freight Industrial Chop SawDeVilbis 20 Gallon, 5 HP Compressor
Reply:OK..Come back down to earth now..First off the link don't work.Second off ...are you nuts?Do you have any idea what it would cost just to grind something that big?We have 3 Blanchard Grinders here and the biggest on has a 40" table and just to run that machine is major $$$$Where are you going to find one big enough to do what you want?How much will it cost just to get it to wherever it has to go and back?Comon' now be real and think this over.It's not as easy as it looks....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:First of all, your dimensions do not make sense. The tooling is made to work in 25mm increments based on a 100mm grid. your table needs to be in increments of 100mm in either direction to use their tooling correctly. The hole size is 28mm. Not sure if that is a hard 28mm or slightly under/oversized. You better have the mind of a machinist when designing or building something like this. This is one of the largest blanchard grinders in the country and it can grind one dimension. How you are going to stand the table on end or fixture the table to grind the 4 sides square to the top??? I would guess there is some custom made tooling for squaring up these tables and I am sure they are not taking down .5" worth of material. I am almost positive the hardening process is done after the machining is done. Hardening is a whole other process that Bluco has worked years to develop so that the tolerances of the machining is not altered.Baileigh makes the cheapest (price and quality) knock-off of the Bluco table. Just look at the quality of the Chinese pot metal steel they are using. Baileigh is such a joke of a company but that is another story.You are better off doing Bluco's lease-to-own program. 5 years, zero interest for established businesses. I have watched online auctions for years and only seen Bluco stuff come up twice. One auction I lost out on and the other auction I was able to buy 20 angles for about $65 each. Did pretty well considering the angles sell new for $985 each and they were in mint condition. They were the yellow painted ones and not hardened. Auctions are great but you cannot run a business based on waiting on an auction to come along. I bought the bare minimum amount of tooling to get started and bought new tooling along the way knowing that someday I would score at an auction. I still watch all the time for tooling. The tooling hunt is addicting. So these 20 "new" angles added to the 6 angles I already owned. Long story short, you need to give up on the idea of building your own 3D fixture table. Spend your energy building a business that can buy you a fixture table.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterOK..Come back down to earth now..First off the link don't work.Second off ...are you nuts?Do you have any idea what it would cost just to grind something that big?We have 3 Blanchard Grinders here and the biggest on has a 40" table and just to run that machine is major $$$$Where are you going to find one big enough to do what you want?How much will it cost just to get it to wherever it has to go and back?Comon' now be real and think this over.It's not as easy as it looks....zap!
Reply:Put it in perspective..Our machine with the 40" table gets 110$ per hour to run..never mind just setting it up...And why would you like it hardened?You can't weld fixtures to it after and it will just chip and break here and there..Go look for a "Acorn Platen Table".Those are all cast iron....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:The acorn option is a good one. Brand new, the 5'x10' Weldsale table is $10,000 and is a very very good quality table, a high end tool. Splatter does not stick and the sides are square to the top. You could spend your time and energy building angles and tooling for the Weldsale.https://www.weldsale.com/shop/ws58b-...ft-with-stand/Last edited by Jimmy_pop; 07-20-2015 at 11:15 AM.
Reply:Hey Jimmy! I read your thread from when you first got the table. Such an awesome setup and thanks for sharing the pictures! How do you go about finding auctions?I know the hole size and spacing is off but for the sake of simplicity I left that out. Yes to use their tooling I'd had better start measuring their stuff with calipers and what not. All and all what you guys are saying obviously makes a lot of sense. The more I see what it takes to do certain things the more I realize how difficult and expensive it can be.I don't have my own business by the way. I'm a structural ironworker in NYC. I'm single (basically) and im always out in my garage after work and on weekends. I constantly have welding and fabrication projects going on outside of my regular job. Sometimes I make money doing things on the side and sometimes I dont. It's more than a hobby for me but not a money thing. I can't help but buy only really good quality tooling and equipment. There's a lot of crap I can spend my money on, I just happen to like tools. Actually was thinking I wanted a new Harley but I want the table more! Thanks again guys.
Reply:I was like you when I started. I didnt make a home-made welding table because I know it would never be square. I am wired with XY coordinates by my former career. I got by for years with a solid piece of hardwood that had been planed flat. splatter didnt stick and I could clamp around the edge. It got me by for years until I bought my first Weldsale table, used. I would go for long periods of time between seeing a used Weldsale for sale. When one would come available for a good deal, i didnt have any money. Then I would get some money but could not find one to save my life. This went back and fourth for years until I got a good deal for a 30"x60 Weldsale. Then 30 days later, I got a deal on a 5x8 footer. It was a light years improvement in quality and speed to have a truly flat surface and internal clamping holes. It was not as easy to work in 3D on a Weldsale versus a Bluco but I was very happy to have my Weldsale. Lots of very legit companies use Weldsale for their fabrication tables. Stronghand makes some very good HD clamps for the 1.75" square holes.Use searchtempest.com to search craigslist nationally. I have never seen Bluco parts on CL but all the acorn/weldsale parts are on CL.
Reply:Originally Posted by burnsIf you are going to build the exact table that they already sell there is no way you can build it cheaper or better. It will cost 3x as much if you figure your time is worth anything. Finding a shop that has the machinery to do the grinding will be difficult, not just grinding the top but also the sides, those shops just don't exist everywhere. Finding a shop that has the machinery, is willing to do the work to the specified accuracy, and for the price you think is fair will be near impossible. Unless you are a big client, the heat treating will also be expensive and difficult to source. Finding a shop that can fit a 7' x 4' piece of steel into a machine and drill the holes on five sides to +/- .001 will also be difficult and expensive to source. Most likely all of these places won't be located in the same spot so you are going to have to cart around a 1 ton piece of steel all over the NE. If you can buy it you should because it can't be built any cheaper unless you have the machinery, material, etc. Sometimes it doesn't work out like that but in this case it does. Moving and machining a piece of steel this size is a lot different that picking up a part and slapping it on a Bridgeport table. I know 2 people that have Bluco tables, while they are nice, neither of those people need the accuracy those table provide. There is something to be said about having a super flat table but if you don't have the work to justify it it's just a huge money pit. The specialized tooling is not affordable unless you have a ton of work for that specific piece. If you want an awesome welding table at 1/4 the cost you should look at WeldSale platens. You can they take the leftover 30K and buy a ton of other pieces of machinery that are needed for a complete fabrication shop. Weldsale platens are flat and heavy and you can build all the same fixturing for it as you can the Bluco. Just my $.02
Reply:What on God's green earth are you making, may I ask, that you need a table hardened to 55RC, with holes drilled to within a mil and a flatness to six mils?This sounds like a solution in search of a problem!
Reply:Originally Posted by Jimmy_popFirst of all, your dimensions do not make sense. The tooling is made to work in 25mm increments based on a 100mm grid. your table needs to be in increments of 100mm in either direction to use their tooling correctly. The hole size is 28mm. Not sure if that is a hard 28mm or slightly under/oversized. You better have the mind of a machinist when designing or building something like this. This is one of the largest blanchard grinders in the country and it can grind one dimension. How you are going to stand the table on end or fixture the table to grind the 4 sides square to the top??? I would guess there is some custom made tooling for squaring up these tables and I am sure they are not taking down .5" worth of material. I am almost positive the hardening process is done after the machining is done. Hardening is a whole other process that Bluco has worked years to develop so that the tolerances of the machining is not altered.Baileigh makes the cheapest (price and quality) knock-off of the Bluco table. Just look at the quality of the Chinese pot metal steel they are using. Baileigh is such a joke of a company but that is another story.You are better off doing Bluco's lease-to-own program. 5 years, zero interest for established businesses. I have watched online auctions for years and only seen Bluco stuff come up twice. One auction I lost out on and the other auction I was able to buy 20 angles for about $65 each. Did pretty well considering the angles sell new for $985 each and they were in mint condition. They were the yellow painted ones and not hardened. Auctions are great but you cannot run a business based on waiting on an auction to come along. I bought the bare minimum amount of tooling to get started and bought new tooling along the way knowing that someday I would score at an auction. I still watch all the time for tooling. The tooling hunt is addicting. So these 20 "new" angles added to the 6 angles I already owned. Long story short, you need to give up on the idea of building your own 3D fixture table. Spend your energy building a business that can buy you a fixture table.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jimmy_popI was like you when I started. I didnt make a home-made welding table because I know it would never be square. I am wired with XY coordinates by my former career. I got by for years with a solid piece of hardwood that had been planed flat. splatter didnt stick and I could clamp around the edge. It got me by for years until I bought my first Weldsale table, used. I would go for long periods of time between seeing a used Weldsale for sale. When one would come available for a good deal, i didnt have any money. Then I would get some money but could not find one to save my life. This went back and fourth for years until I got a good deal for a 30"x60 Weldsale. Then 30 days later, I got a deal on a 5x8 footer. It was a light years improvement in quality and speed to have a truly flat surface and internal clamping holes. It was not as easy to work in 3D on a Weldsale versus a Bluco but I was very happy to have my Weldsale. Lots of very legit companies use Weldsale for their fabrication tables. Stronghand makes some very good HD clamps for the 1.75" square holes.Use searchtempest.com to search craigslist nationally. I have never seen Bluco parts on CL but all the acorn/weldsale parts are on CL.
Reply:Does anyone know anything about the siegmund tables and how it compares to bluco? I've been browsing around and see that they are much more affordable but wondering what the drawback is. They look identical.
Reply:today, my helper thought it was a good idea to weld the job to the table then just grind it down. I have hired my last smoking, smart phone addicted, "motorcycle" fabricator.
Reply:Originally Posted by 66myndDoes anyone know anything about the siegmund tables and how it compares to bluco? I've been browsing around and see that they are much more affordable but wondering what the drawback is. They look identical.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jimmy_poptoday, my helper thought it was a good idea to weld the job to the table then just grind it down. I have hired my last smoking, smart phone addicted, "motorcycle" fabricator.
Reply:Yes. It is compatible.
Reply:66mynd - if it makes you feel any better, alot of my buddies drive around is super nice diesel 4x4's trucks while I kept my 11 year old dodge with 300K on it so I could buy the welding table. I'll eventually have a nice truck that has air conditioning and no road noise but the table is forever and will fund all future purchases. Keeping in mind I have waited for this table for the better part of 8 years. It is not like I just up and decided I wanted it and bought it. It has been a long journey and sacrifice and doing without. There is alot more to the back story but you can tell when the "welders" I hire just weld to the table, albeit, on "accident" or dont properly ground the workpiece and the arc explodes he surface of the table, it pisses me off. Look for opportunities to be a subcontractor to build precision welded parts and make your table a reality.
Reply:D16 Bluco table on ebay today
Reply:In all honesty, you could build a table with a flat surface and go off of their. I built my table for around $1000, but that was quite a bit of hunting for steel drops, CL searching and finding deals on water jet cutting and grinding. I've since sold it, but plan on building something else soon. FWIW, I got lucky and had a grinder that could do my top (70x40") about 45 minutes from me. He was the only one that had a machine capable for that size within a few hundred miles from what I could find. No way you could build a table similar to a Bluco without some serious work and cost. Fab tables are definitely one thing where there is no harm in upgrading. I usually subscribe to 'buy once, cry once' but that doesn't really apply to a Bluco table....
Reply:What are you building that requires such a nice table?Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine toolsOriginally Posted by Jimmy_popD16 Bluco table on ebay today
Reply:Originally Posted by kazlxIn all honesty, you could build a table with a flat surface and go off of their. I built my table for around $1000, but that was quite a bit of hunting for steel drops, CL searching and finding deals on water jet cutting and grinding. I've since sold it, but plan on building something else soon. FWIW, I got lucky and had a grinder that could do my top (70x40") about 45 minutes from me. He was the only one that had a machine capable for that size within a few hundred miles from what I could find. No way you could build a table similar to a Bluco without some serious work and cost. Fab tables are definitely one thing where there is no harm in upgrading. I usually subscribe to 'buy once, cry once' but that doesn't really apply to a Bluco table....
Reply:Originally Posted by fortyonethirtyWhat are you building that requires such a nice table?
Reply:Check this out, can easily be scaled down, one of the few I'm using as inspiration for my next table:http://www.minibuggy.net/forum/shop-...build-log.htmlGrinding isn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things if you want something flat. Using smaller plates that can be moved and shimmed will greatly decrease the cost over one large piece, when it comes to machining and grinding costs. Here's roughly what I'm working on for my next one, because I can handle all of the machining and assembly (minus the grinding) by myself. Although, I have to say, if I had a business (or stupid amounts of money) and could justify the cost, I'd just buy the Bluco.
Reply:We build bridges and crane parts and only use skids and a piece of plate. What do you build for that type of table ? You cannot clamp and hold down welded work it will move.
Reply:Sure you can. It's done every day.
Reply:here you go:
Reply:I want one
Reply:Awesome! Who ever came up with that is a genius. Still gonna get a bluco but this is pretty cool. Anyone know what machine is that being used to cut the steel?
Reply:Those are 6 axis tube cutters. Pretty cool. The cuts are pretty rough. You can see the legs cuts on his pieces are rough. The jobs I have cut on them were rough too. It is very expensive to get done too.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jimmy_poptoday, my helper thought it was a good idea to weld the job to the table then just grind it down. I have hired my last smoking, smart phone addicted, "motorcycle" fabricator.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jimmy_popThose are 6 axis tube cutters. Pretty cool. The cuts are pretty rough. You can see the legs cuts on his pieces are rough. The jobs I have cut on them were rough too. It is very expensive to get done too.
Reply:@ 66mynd - Dave at tabandslot.com uses a 1kw Amada CO2 laser to cut his 3/16" steel surfaces and thinner pipes/tubes. Thought their setup was a 4-axis machine, vice a 6-axis model? Having talked with Dave this week for technical advisement, do know they will soon be acquiring a new higher-kw CO2 laser for working thicker materials.The vid below is Dave explaining the tube laser normalization process via SolidWorks."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:27:10