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it is very difficult work. We (me and another guy) are out on a swing stage drilling holes through 12 gauge galvanized steel .. basically it is 4 layers of galvanized 12 gauge per "stud" and we have hundreds of these things to drill. We have to make four 1" holes in each stud. It will take months to do. our company gave us a 1" drill bit and basically said go to town.. we got 1.5 holes done in 4 hours, and ruined an expensive bit. we brought our own bits and we are running small pilot holes (1/4" , then 1/2", then 1") .. this is much easier but it is still ridiculously hard work. a plasma cutter would be great but the way the beams are formed, you could nto cut completely through with a plasma cutter because it wouldnt reach. the beams are like this.. each line is a layer of 12 gauge, a solid beam in the center with "caps" on the edges, and it is about 6" wide across:[ || ]so you cuold use a plasma to cut the outside edges , but wouldnt reach the interior .i was also thinking of using an acetylene torch , but im not sure if it would reach the interior either. would pre heating the metal with a torch make it easier to drill? i know we could cut throught the outside pieces with a torch but im not sure about the inside thx for any advice
Reply:Maybe try out an annular cutter of some sort rather than solid bits. I would not preheat the metal and then drill - you'll just ruin your bits immediately.If there's room for slop in the holes, using a torch with a long specialty cutting tip may be workable if you can find one, but I hate to burn galvy if there's another way around it.Last edited by tbone550; 07-21-2011 at 09:38 PM.
Reply:Would a mag base drill work?I offer three choices: Good, Fast, & Cheap. You may pick two.Hobart AC/DC StikMate LXHarbor Freight AD HoodHarbor Freight Industrial Chop SawDeVilbis 20 Gallon, 5 HP Compressor
Reply:The problem with annular cutters u have to remove the slug before going on to the next hole, if there 12 guage and its all stacked upon each other i personally would run to the home depot or lowes and buy a 1inch punch for electrical work or a "stud punch" looks like bolt cutters with a punch in it i hate doing anything to galvanized that has anything to do with heat, my health is worth more than that to me.I forgot how to change this.
Reply:http://www.gardnerbender.com/pdf/pro...ole_making.pdfThe other thing u might try if u are stuck with drilling them is step drill bits its amazing how quickly they will run through thinner metals.I forgot how to change this.
Reply:1.5 holes in 4 hrs? What were you doing the rest of the time? I'd go with a handful of good hole saws and a special extension.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Mag drill and hole saw. Still time consuming but probably the best way to go with the galvi IMO.
Reply:Small frame drill from Jancy or Hougen with 1" x1" annular cutters.
Reply:Hyd punch see Gardener Bender on other post , Nitto Koekie has them too.
Reply:I thought about suggesting a punch also, but it looks like there is an air gap between the outter and inner plates that would make this impractical unless they were punched prior to assembly. You won't be able to get the two dies on the same piece of steel at the same time.I'd vote for a mag drill and holesaw/anular cutter as my 1st choice, and then mag drill with twist bits/ step drills as a second choice. As mentioned you'll need to clear the slugs with an annular cutter or hole saw. I noticed recently Lowes has carbide holesaws in stock. I was thinking they'd make a good addition to my set for working in steel vs the standard bimetal ones..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Heating the metal to try and make it easier to drill is a bad idea. Your just adding more heat to the drill bit = bad. If the drill bit or cutting tool you use gets too hot it weak/dull the cutting edge.I would try with a mag base and a hole saw. Mag base will give you rigid drilling , and be able to put alot more pressure on the drill. Dont run the hole saw speed too fast, 1" around 300rpm and if you can mix up some coolant. Will keep it sharp.
Reply:I think this is the key question, based on the progress you made:What RPM is the drill you're using turning your bit at?Jack OlsenMy garage website
Reply:AJM, 1.5 holes drilled in 4 hours? Drilling should not be that much work. Speaking from experience, it should take no more than 1 minute 30 seconds to drill a 1 inch hole through 3/8" structural steel using a good mag drill and a "centerless" cutter with coolant (I have done this 8 hours a day for weeks at a time). If one guy center-punches the holes as you go, you should be able to position and drill at least one hole every 3 minutes. However, spindle speed, power, and proper technique are everything when it comes to drilling holes. This means that you need several drills and/or a variable speed drill if you are going to step drill the holes. A 1/4" drill should spin about 1500 rpm, a 1/2" drill should spin about 800 rpm, and a 1" drill should spin about 400 rpm. These speeds are approximate values for mild steel and the optimum speed is found through trial and error. Also, each drill should have enough power to remove the quantity of metal desired and the drill bit should never slip in the drill chuck. Also, your drill bits must be sharp. They will no doubt get dull and need to be replaced or sharpened about every 200 holes if you are using a mag drill, and every 10-50 holes if you are drilling freehand. Do not sharpen your drills by hand. It takes special jigs/machines and skill to ensure that a drill (or centerless cutter) will be sharpened properly in order to work correctly. Do not buy cheap-o drills either, get them from a reputable stateside manufacturer. Given that you essentailly have to start each hole four times to make one hole, it would help you greatly to buy center-cutting 1/4" drill bits. These have an extra grinder-cut on the end of the drill which makes the drill cut all of the way to the center of the hole. Regular drill bits have a bridge of metal across the tip. These are fine once you have the pilot hole drilled. Using a center-cutting drill for the first hole will make drilling that hole much faster and easier. Proper technique is a must if you want to preserve your cutters. First, use coolant. This will keep everything from overheating and allow you to work faster. Get a good industrial cutting coolant, not a lubricant or oil. You should add this to the cutter and workpiece before starting a hole and continue to add coolant little by little as you make the cut. Always start the drill before you make contact with the work. When you make contact between the drill and the workpiece, do so lightly. Then, press the drill just hard enough to start the cut. As you cut, observe the color of the chips and the torque on the drill. If the chips are a blue color, then they are too hot. Feed the drill less. If the drill begins to bind in the hole as heat builds up, then feed the drill less or use more coolant. Additionally, you will probably have to clear the drill to prevent the flutes from clogging with curls of metal. To do this, let up on the drill pressure for an instant every 10-20 seconds. This will cause the curls to break, which will help them to travel up the flutes. Another thing, be careful not to overheat your drill motor. Avoid using super-long and skinny extension cords. If the cooling air leaving the drill feels like it is about to scald your skin, then back-off on the drill pressure. Should the drill begin to smoke (you are burning insulation), keep the trigger pressed and remove the load. This will let the cooling fan do its job the most effectively and just may save your tool. I hope this helps and sorry for the length. Sincerely, taylorcrafdt1947 Christopher J. Mikesell
Reply:left hand drill in a right hand brace ? lol couldnt help myselfI forgot how to change this.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jack OlsenI think this is the key question, based on the progress you made:What RPM is the drill you're using turning your bit at?
Reply:Originally Posted by AJM... just using what they give us . . .We don't have a nice bit sharpener so we are just working with what we've got .
Reply:Originally Posted by LawsonWeldingLLCThe problem with annular cutters u have to remove the slug before going on to the next hole, if there 12 guage and its all stacked upon each other i personally would run to the home depot or lowes and buy a 1inch punch for electrical work or a "stud punch" looks like bolt cutters with a punch in it i hate doing anything to galvanized that has anything to do with heat, my health is worth more than that to me.
Reply:Yeah if ya wanna go buy more cutters thats fine , im speaking in a since of going to fastenal and getting a annual cutter , they are tapered on the edge and u have to drill each sheet individually, how about we see a picture of what the guys actually drilling and perhaps instead of saying WRONG say there are other cutters a person could use that will allow you to drill through multiple layers...I forgot how to change this.
Reply:You can take offence at my direct reply all you like it won't change the facts. Your comments were and are wrong. That you don't know what tooling is available is not my problem. That you have limited knowledge is not my problem. Definitive, and declarative statements will usually create problems for the person making them. Your misinformation declarative and my definitive have created this.
Reply:Thanks for bein a douche i appreciate it I forgot how to change this.
Reply:Your welcome. Might be next time you check yourself likely not but either way I'll correct your errors when I see them. Cheers.
Reply:I appreciate learning new things , Thanks, it doesnt bother me what happens on the internet - once the hood is down and the checks in my wallet i dont care.I forgot how to change this.
Reply:It should be the responsibility of supervision/management to do most of the thinking, planning and aquiring the right tooling for the job. Sure, the laborer and boss can work together to figure out what works best but when it comes down to the bottom line you do the best job you can with what you're handed. Are these laying down on the table or standing up & in place out on the job? Drilling all the way through from one side or drilling from both sides? Tightly sandwiched material or loose layers or spaced layers? Big difference in methodology. A conventional 1 inch bit is about the last thing I'd want to use for anything less than about 1/4 inch material. Especially if it was with a hand drill. Instinctively I'd jump back about six foot if someone handed me a 1 inch bit and said go drill a bunch of holes in some loosely layered sheet metal with a hand drill. Not that it can't be done but it would be one biting, snagging, grabbing wrist breaking sumbeech. If these two guys are making this conventional twist drill thing work out my hat is off to 'em. "The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:http://www.yankeereamer.com/products.aspOne drill bit I've used in the past was shaped like a reamer. I think that it went under the name or manufacture "Yankee". The first 3" were tapered and the last 3" were the actual dimension. The nice thing about them was that they would pull or feed themselves and made it easy to drill multiple holes. On a 1" bit you would have to drill a pilot hole and they are also kind of expensive.
Reply:Originally Posted by LawsonWeldingLLCI appreciate learning new things , Thanks, it doesnt bother me what happens on the internet - once the hood is down and the checks in my wallet i dont care.here is a picture of what we are drilling.. these are 12 gauge 'studs' that are screwed together (each verticle beam is two pieces of 12 gauge , screwed together) .. now , you cannot see the "caps" that we put on the beams in this picture, but we are adding two more pieces of 12 gauge , on the outsides of the studs. so the studs are like this which you see in the pic| || || |and we are adding caps like this[| |] <--caps | | | |then we are drilling through the caps/studs, and hanging/welding angle iron to the ibeam , and the angle connects to the studs via the holes we are drilling (with bolts/nuts)
Reply:Looks like very poor planning on the assembly end. The holes should have been drilled or punched prior to standing this up.
Reply:Have you asked the engineer if you can make bigger holes? Big enough so that you could use a plasma cutter?Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:If you're going to use a plasma, get the shielded end for the torch and make a template. The template would be something like a 1/4" piece with circle hole that is 1" plus the cut offset of the shielded tip (probably end up somewhere around 1-1/2" diameter). You should be able to clamp the template in place, gouge through the 12ga somewhere in the middle, cut to the outside and make a quick circle around the template to cut the hole. Cut the hole in the back-to-back studs and the cap, then install the cap. Make an alignment tool from some 1" rod and a flat plate if needed.You should be spending 10 seconds on the cut. Most of your time will be moving around and clamping on the template.The mag drill will be useless on 12ga. It won't stick unless you have a thicker backing plate. Hold the mag drill in place while also holding the backing plate in place while also aligning it while also turning on the magnet. Yeah, not convenient.Last edited by AndyA; 07-26-2011 at 08:13 PM.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:Originally Posted by akpolarisLooks like very poor planning on the assembly end. The holes should have been drilled or punched prior to standing this up.
Reply:My only advice (and I'm just a half-wit hobbyist) would be to make sure your drill is going VERY slowly. Like the neighborhood of 100-400 rpm. Beyond a certain speed, you're going to be grazing over the steel and generating heat -- which is what dulls your bits. You want to be cutting through the steel so that you're generating a tightly rolled helix chip. If you look at the loner up at the 10:00 mark in this picture, you'll see the right shape. The longer ones mean I was feeding the material too fast. Also, use cutting/tapping oil. And start with a pilot hole. This is inch-thick plate.My equipment couldn't be cheaper. The low-speed (0-550 rpm) drill was $39 on sale at Harbor Freight (still is). I picked up a set of Harbor Freight Titanium Nitride covered bits at the same time -- also on sale. Less than $60 total and you can go through just about anything that's made of mild steel. I haven't dulled any of the bits, yet. The key is for there to be no heat.Last edited by Jack Olsen; 07-27-2011 at 06:04 PM.Jack OlsenMy garage website
Reply:Originally Posted by AJM. . . you are right about the mag drill. It doesnt work it wont stick (or , it will stick, but once you push the drill press into it, it coems right off )... the backing plate is a good idea.. except the mag drill they got us probably weighs 120lb easy .. and just lifting that thing and lining it up would probably be more work than just drilling em by hand all day. . . .
Reply:*****************************Can you guys recommend some good annular cutters ? All the ones i see the cutting depth is like 2" .. 2" is no good .. maybe 4" or 5" would be good , gotta cut through that ourside cap 12Gauge into the double 12gauge interior .. so we need like 4"-5" (5" would be ideal)****************************-drill a pilot hole smaller than the cutter pilot, either from both sides (accurately aligned) or single side...but apparently the outside width of the capped beams is???.....4"....5".....???-the cutter pilot (Hougen has at least 3 styles--drill, 4 sided punch, and round pilot--1/4" dia. ) of the cutter will use the pilot hole.-you need to test attaching and safely suspending a mag base drill on site-Fat Bastard discussed frame cutters on page one--http://weldingweb.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=17....but I guess that's ancient history in this fast-paced, going nowhere project.'out-there' is a tooling method and process that will work better that twist drilling.Blackbird
Reply:You may want to try a tapered reamer from McMaster Carr. they have a 1" model specificaly for thinner materials($99.00). It has a 1/2" shaft and it 3/8" on the small end. For the pilot hole I would use a 1/2" solid carbide 4 flute drill point mill. They stay sharp and will cut through quickly. I have used them on stainless with great success. McMaster also has construction reamers with a safety collar to prevent over penetration. the small end on the 1" unit is 45/64", it runs around $85. Good luck.Last edited by sailwelder; 07-27-2011 at 09:32 PM.Reason: added information
Reply:a bimetal hole saw with the specific hole saw extensions would go through 12g layers easily if you keep the speed down and lube / cool it. I made ~40 holes in 1/2" plate with a $50 harbor freight drill press and a $15 1.5" hole saw from lowes.. The blue lennox brand i think.. and it is still plenty sharp.miller syncrowave 250hobart handler 140home made 400 amp engine driven in progress...
Reply:Good old arc gouger baby!!!!! Blow off the 12 gua gently cause if it's doubled steel it may take off on you and look like a sunflower if that's the case drill through the cap and then gouge it let a few cool and then clean um up with a carbide or diamond bit don't pre heat I have tried this and carbide will shatter like glass.....
Reply:I think you missed the part on post number 30 where he said he couldn't use any heat.
Reply:Well .... Welp that's not good I guess I did miss that whitch makes this all the more tougher ... Why weren't the wholes pre cut ??? I mean I hate to burn galvinized too but .... Well if you aren't makin over 40 an hour I'd just quit .... That's the best I can do ya ....
Reply:Hi, at the very worst you'll be employed for months to come.......better make the job last, overtime too.....no sense in rushing....let the boss or foreman work out how quick it gets done.....his ars is on the line then.....always remember, your'e not paid to think, do as the boss says and if'n he likes to pay you for the hours..... so be it.In all my 50+ years in engineering I never once took the can for bad management planning.BTW, when I was apprentice we had to drill 2-1/2" diam holes through 3" thick cast steel on the buffer beams of an electric mine locomotive to fit draw hooks for chains.....and they were done with a hand ratchet drill, 5 foot long handle....using one 2-1/2" diam drill and a 3/8" pilot drill.......4 holes in 6 hours.We backed another loco agains the ratchet drill to exert the pressure on the drill bit as it cut.In your case you might be able to exert a lever agains the drill if you can secure the lever with a large suction cup to the sheeting.I drilled the fixing holes in my garage and carport roof using the first hole I drilled to hook a lever into which I pressed against the back of the drill to put pressure against it, so making a pseudo drill press.In most cases of loose/hand drilling the inability to apply pressure to the drill point results in it rubbing and wearing it out before it gets to really cut, one of the reasons a drill press is so successfull. Ian.
Reply:I like the lever idea. If I understand the procedure correctly, a short piece of electrical cantruss or similar and a bit of threaded rod hooked at one end with a couple nuts for adjustment should allow you to fashion a lever by hooking around the leg of the channel stud.I also agree that it was very poor planning on someones part. Cannot the two pieces that you are laminating onto the double studs be prepunched and at least eliminate half of the in place drilling. If even someone were to spend a couple days trying different methods and equipment, the pay off would be tremendous if it could eliminate several hundred hours of unnecessary labor.The one statement that I do disagree with is, "that you don't get paid to think...". If everybody adopted this attitude not much would get done in this world. Anyone can have a good idea, regardless of their rank and it is the collaboration of ideas that solves problems.
Reply:Drill a 1/4" hole through all 4 with a long drill bit, then pop two holes from one side with a step drill, then go to the other side and pop the other two, or three or whatever it was. Step drill or a hole saw and slow speed. I would be willing to tackle it with my battery drill, 15 minutes per section, change batteries after each section and a half.
Reply:just out of curiosity, why not just align the holes that are already in them and use those, they look to be about an inch?
Reply:Hi Tinbasher, the "ain't got paid to think" bit is 'cos the guy that's paid to do the thinking should earn his money....I don't suscribe to the notion that you have a dog and bark yourself.Over the years I've come to realise that when they pay peanuts they get monkeys, and monkeys don't think.I never worked in a place long enough to want to qualify to be a thinker, and I refuse to carry the can for someone who thinks he knows more than me and doesn't.If'n not much got done, it's because the thinkers aren't planning it right, so how can the guy doing the job expect to rethink the job......that would certainly piss the foreman off......NEVER tell a foreman that he's got it wrong and it should be done this or that way.BTW, when you want to drill holes in a wall with a carbide tipped masony bit, you can use that method of the lever against the back of the drill and do the job in half the time without raising a sweat..... I used that method once by jamming a stick into the ground to get a fulcrum point.Ian.Last edited by puddytat; 09-30-2011 at 12:25 PM.
Reply:Maybe them guys are still drilling. Still be there at turkey time.Funny how problem solving tends to get a focus. Here it was everybody wanted to drill or burn.Those metal studs are usually punched. Can be different shapes, don't need to be round holes. 12 gauge ain't too thick, might have required hydraulics. Folks like Greenlee make the punches. Way they do it in the factory, way they do it in the field.Not sure in this case, maybe they need small pilot holes. I know holes of that size can be done manually, not sure when it gets limited by guage thickness. There are set ups that use hydraulic methods. Some it is a simple hand pump affair that is portable. It might have involved put in the first stud, get your alignment, placement to do the first hole, figure out how to do the rest, maybe could have not had to do everything in place. Get the second, lined up mark it, punch it before installation. Should have been a way. Same with the caps, got to be a way to mark it, using the installed stud as the guide. Some way this thing could have been punched. Call to the right guy.But immediately I would have said look at punching it. A lil research would have probably gotten the solution pretty quick. Ain't rocket science, also how most panel shops did it years ago. Probably still do for smaller or custom applications. Typical way for the lighter metal studs in like home building.Too often I think in these threads folks rush into the details with one predisposed solution. Instead of stepping back to try to see the big picture. What do I really want to accomplish? What do I have to do / change to make it possible. How many methods are there? How is this normally done???Boo on the engineers but many times the details are left up to the contractor. This one should have been thought out far better at the planning level, proper tools provided. A detail drawing and steps how to do it, if not straightforward. Lil test trying long before you get into the heavy lifting by somebody (contractor level). If something special was required, it should have been identified. Lots of incompetent engineers. You just hope doctors are better.
Reply:Cosmic. I believe the problem was that the studs were already installed. Punching is great, but you have to have acess to both sides of the stud to do so. 2 studs back to back ][ is no issue, but 2 studs face to face [] like it appears the OP has would be..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:This kinda calls for a custom clamp setup with a drill guide (bushings perhaps, tethered so they don't bail off?) on each end, perhaps made of aluminum since it will be lifted overhead.Any clamp/jig ninjas out there?
Reply:Rotabroach cuttershttp://www.hougen.com/cutters/sheetmetal/Rotacut.htmlI just used a 1" one today to run through 16ga stainless tubes, no problem at all with only a 7/64" pilot hole. Slugs eject themselves out because the pilot hole is smaller than the locating pin and the spring has a good bit of force behind it.Using a 1" drill bit on that material is just a terrible solution.Using a holesaw would be alright but you will go through quite a few in short order.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88Rotabroach cuttershttp://www.hougen.com/cutters/sheetmetal/Rotacut.htmlI just used a 1" one today to run through 16ga stainless tubes, no problem at all with only a 7/64" pilot hole. Slugs eject themselves out because the pilot hole is smaller than the locating pin and the spring has a good bit of force behind it.Using a 1" drill bit on that material is just a terrible solution.Using a holesaw would be alright but you will go through quite a few in short order.
Reply:hey ajm is this building going up in frederick? if so where?
Reply:Originally Posted by CosmicRamblerYeah, that is the hot set up. Just got to call the right guy.I still think they could have found a way to punch it with the right rig, would not be a standard set up. These would be nice to have. What do these babies costs, got any general idea??? Do they offer a sharpening service????Might still be up there drilling, drilling, drilling. |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:26:17