Railing Questions

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I have a quote to do for a customer for a handrail on a porch.   A railing was built several years ago for a side entrance, but now the customer would like the railing at the main entrance replaced.   A local shop built the side porch railing, and the customer tried to get them to build the main entrance one as well.  The local shop is not responding back, and the customer is frustrated.  The new railing must match the one at the side entrance.  Its newels are one inch square tubing, top and bottom rails of one inch channel, and the pickets are half-inch square bar with two cast collars welded 16 ½ inches apart.  A decorative handrail is welded to the top of the rail, and a decorative end (lambs tongue) is welded at the end of the railing at the bottom of the steps.  The railing on the top end of the porch is about six feet.  It takes a 90-degree corner followed by a one-foot section of railing.  It then takes another 90-degree corner before travelling down four steps down towards the sidewalk with a length of about 11 to 12 feet and  includes 30 pickets.     Since most of the welding I do/have done is either on rail cars or farm machinery, I consider this a little more intricate than what I am used to, and I am looking for input from others.    I have a SA200, and I am thinking about getting  a TIG torch set up to complete this job (it has been about 15 years since I have last TIG welded though).  Because there is 30 half-inch pickets that have to be welded, top and bottom, and 60 collars that I presume should be welded top and bottom to each picket, I figure that a cleaner weld could be placed by Tigging it.  Thoughts?  Or should I just stay with stick?  When welding cast to mild, what should I be keeping in mind?  If welding with TIG, what size and type of tungsten, what size of nozzle should I use?  What would be a good air-cooled torch to start out with?  Amperage settings?The customer said that he would get the handrail powder coated once I have welded it.   Do you think that I should suggest that I look into getting this done for him?  Like I said previously, I have never done railings before, so I don’t know what to charge.  I usually have an hourly rate, but because some of the variables changed, this is throwing me for a loop.  I may have read in another thread/forum, $80-$85 per foot.  Does that sound reasonable?  Thank you in advance for any advice/suggestions.
Reply:Tig or stick, I'd probably tig it. Given my choice, mig would be my #1 option. Most of those pickets could be done real easy with .023 wire and mig.As far as the tig torch, depends on your plans. For this you shouldn't have any need for more than 150 amps, so an air cooled 17 style or even a lighter air cooled 9 would work. The 9 is a lot smaller and easier to handle than the 17 is, or the much bigger 26 air cooled torch. However the parts between the 9 and 17/26 will not interchange. Something to think about. If you plan to run higher amps later, then maybe a CK 150 ( 17 series) or CK 200 ( 26 series) might be a better choice.I'd be partial to CK's 9 size torch for what you need to do. It has almost the same,  if not better duty cycle and amp rating as other companies bigger 17 size torches. They also make flexhead versions. You will need one with the gas valve like the CK1325VNSF RG that is last on that list. I prefer a 1 piece hose, but then you need to get the adapter block and hose from the adapter to the flow meter. (Having said that, my air cooled torch on my Maxstar 200 is a 2 piece hose wrapped in a leather sheath... That's simply because that's what I found cheap used. The one piece hose on my Syncrowave is much nicer however.)http://www.arc-zone.com/index.php?ma..._907_1375_1023Parts, personally I'd invest in a gas lens and #8 cup for that torch in 3/32", the needed collet, and some red 3/32" tungsten. You can go with standard cups and collet bodies if you choose, but I like the ability to extend the tungsten out a bit farther when welding in corners and tight locations. Standard e70 tig wire in 1/16" will be fine for your project..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I'd use a mig too - that's what I've used on railings before I learned to tig.Now that I tig, I'd still use mig on most of it for speed. No matter how much I tig, I'm still not as fast as mig for that repetitive stuff - and you are 15 years out of practice currently.I price that stuff by thinking in terms of whole day(s) labor instead of hours. I'm just a part-timer so if I'm off a little it won't matter too much.Good luck on your project edit: if the only choice it tig vs stick - definitely tig for me.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Well...thanks to both of you for responding. Thanks DSW for the TIG info...points me in the right direction. Because I already have the SA200 I figured a cheep way to get a good job done would be to just add the TIG to the SA200. Is it possible to use a suitcase voltage sensing wire feeder to the SA200 to run the .023 wire? I didn't think the SA200 would run cool enough for that. Or is there another MIG option with out spending huge bucks? I also thought of picking up a 110 volt MIG welder but then I am still limited down the road. When I buy a tool I usually look for long time use and durability and the 110 MIG doesn't fit that category IMHO. Those are just my thoughts. Maybe someone else has a better idea?BTW...I am just a part timer too. I work full time but have my fingers into to many other part time sideline jobs. I always like the variety.
Reply:I have a feeling a VS feeder using small gauge solid wire is going to be an effort in futility. VS feeders don't run short arc well off CC units like your SA 200. Jump up into bigger FC wire and the amps to burn it well off the SA 200, and it's most likely too hot and too much wire for a project like this. I wouldn't spend the money on a suitcase feeder for this project. For what it will cost you for most used suitcases, you can just about buy a nice 220v 180 class mig new and have a much easier time running small wire. Better yet you are really close in price to what some of the dual voltage migs, or multiprocess units are now running..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:SMAW or GTAW......  Id Tig it,  less clean up and Paint or Powder Coat Prep.When ever I give a Estimate or proposal on Railings I charge by the foot.  $50 a foor for a standard STEEL rail this includes... Made to IRC Code and Specifications.1/2" Solid Balusters.1" 11ga post.2 (Top & Bottom) 1" C-ChannelsStandard 1 3/4" Top rail.Primed.Painted (White or Black).Lambs Tongue.Then I go from there.  Additional Scrolls, Friezes, Knuckles, are at cost with the exception of considerable Welding Time. (One customer wanted 2 Knuckles on each Baluster, over 200 Balusters, so instead of 8, 1/2" welds per baluster there was 16).  A paint thats not Black/White I charge for the cost of the paint. Then the Installation into Concrete or a type of Masonry I generally charge $20 per foot. Bringing the total of a Basic rail to code to $70 per foot installed. Mounting into Wood post depends on the amount of time it takes. Do yourself a favor and build a Jig for the railings.  Sometimes the work stops to enable the work to continue more effectively.  For consistent spacing between balusters lay a 2X4 between them if you arent crazy about building a intricate Jig. Id bring using your powder coater to the homeowners attention.  But if they have someone that can do it by all means let them use there guy, if the rails come back and dont look good afterall they used THERE source. Best of Luck!Thats just my style and it works for me. I was talking to the owner of a huge Ironwork shop and he asked me what I was getting per foot, I told him $70 installed....  He said he wasnt getting $35 a foot and he layed off a bunch of guys.  He asked me how I was getting so much per foot.... I said "I smile and solve peoples problems, I dont create more for the homeowner"Last edited by DieselDon16; 08-09-2014 at 12:45 PM.Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:DSW... I just run out of the back of the truck right now so for me to get a 220 machine would not make sense to me. If I had my shop I definitely would have one...probably a 250 Miller/Lincoln. Is there any thoughts on the 110v machines (I am leery of them)? Diesel Don...if you could picture the railing I described, how long do you figure it would take you? I have never done this before but here is what I am thinking. I can set up a jig and weld all the collars on the pickets at home so they are ready when I show up at the customers place. All the rest of the fabbing could be done on site. I am not sure how long the collars would take to weld on but I am thinking (and maybe out to lunch) the rest of the on site work could take a day? Based on that, I was thinking $750 including material and the customer getting it powder coated. Am I selling myself short? How long would it take to TIG on the cast collars to the pickets(4"/ collar)?
Reply:You have roughly 18" of Railing with Guard and stair railing. Id be at about $1260, but your not Priming/Painting...  That figure includes the installation. Once you get everything cut putting and welding it together doesnt take too long (Using MIG).  I figure about a day from start to finish.   Also when you cut your balusters (Pickets) make a stop you could just keep slamming your 20' length of stock into.  I use a Chop saw and clamp my stop 32 3/8" from the blade so all my balusters are the same length.  I also cut my post 4' long and leave them long until I cut them into final length in the field.  You wanna eliminate all unseen variables.  Have room to work with the field conditions. I try to make everything in Sections complete at the shop before I do my field install. If this were my job I'd make that first 6' section straight rail, then make the 4' section of straight rail.  Then that 4 step portion Id also fabricate in the shop, then finally that 12' section down the sidewalk. Make your sections where the post come in, weld the post on one rail and leave the post off the following section, (Make sure your gap between Baluster and post are the same on both rails joining together. There's formulas to figure out stair angles Rise/Run...  Landings, Risers/Treads...  I use 2x4's to make a template of the stairs in the field, I can mark on the 2x4's where my Post(s) will got.  Its almost as good as having the stairs at the shop...I'll try to dig out pics of my templates and what Im refering to as "Sections"...Last edited by DieselDon16; 08-09-2014 at 02:57 PM.Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:Here's how I template my Stairs.  I also take a piece of Ply-wood or a 2x10" and lay it horizontally over the Nosings of the stairs and use a framing square to draw a vertical 90* line on the 2X10" following the riser from the tread.  Then I lay the plywood or 2X10" on a table to my bottom C-Channel and use that line I drew as my angle to follow. Most stairs I have worked with are around 32.5*....Here's the sections I was reffering to.  (Imagine the wood post as Steel post) break your sections at the post attaching the post to one rail section keeping a uniform spacing on both sides of the post.(The Post is welded on the following section where this Section welds to that post.)My "Fancy" JIG  Some Blue , Some Red & Some GreyProverbs 16:2-3.2 "All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord. 3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans."
Reply:Some excellent work there DieselDon16 and your spot on with your pricing, its so easy to forget to tell the customer the complete price and ending up selling yourself short.
Reply:Originally Posted by Gerry1964Some excellent work there DieselDon16 and your spot on with your pricing, its so easy to forget to tell the customer the complete price and ending up selling yourself short.
Reply:2nd that DieselDon16! Nice work! I never thought of using the wood like that but I like the idea. Really simplifies things. I actually have between 11-12 feet to do(6+1+4 for the steps). That would work out to $840 then. I also like the jig you have made up. If this turns out to be something that I do more frequently I can see making one of those as well but for right now since this is just the one job, I figure I will a jig that will only have 2 pickets in it at a time...one hopefully fitted/welded correctly and the one that is going to be fitted and just move down the line till all the pickets are in. Its similar to using the 2 x 4 but will also have the picket centered on the C channel(1" channel and 1/2" picket leaves 1/4" on either side).DSW...you mentioned using standard E70 fig wire...this will do for welding the cast collars to the pickets? Anything else I should keep in mind for this type of welding?
Reply:Hey SS,Interesting project, I'm looking forward to pics.Myself, not to be contrary, but between arc and tig, I'd lean toward stick as that's what I'm more proficient at; and I'd use 6013 and 309 electrode.  I'm just too dambed slow at tig.Lincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:i like that jig, one of theses days im going to get around to making a dedicated jig... whats worked well so far is i simply clamp angle iron to the table for the top and bottom rails, then use some short sections of 3" pipe for the spacing. when the pickets have collars i have to use spacers to get the rails off the table. once the pickets are tacked then i stand the railing up, clamp a straightedge at the desired height and the collars fall where they need to be. then weld it up. i like doing it this way bc i dont have to weld vertical, or have all the weldment on one side and have the rails canted to one side.i would recommend against tig welding the collars. ive done this. theyre usually pretty low quality castings and full of trash, meaning theyre always popping and fuming nasty stuff that leaves your tungsten and heap of balled up sputtering trash. see about renting a wire feed unit and running fluxcore. that will run off your cc machine. i had a 110 lincoln unit and gave eventually it away, its a pos, but actually works wonderful for this type of application, they dont get very good penetration and the duty cycle sucks, but they will get the job done. id also look into getting pre punched channel, it makes things go alot faster , it seems there's always a few pickets that dont want to fit.
Reply:and yes, any mild steel wire will work for the collars. concentrate on getting the weldment more on the picket than the collar and even if it cracks, the weldment on the top and bottom of the collar will keep it pinned in place.and anyone who does this type of work should really look into joining nomma if they havent already, its a wonderful resourcewww.nomma.org
Reply:Originally Posted by rusty ripplei like that jig, one of theses days im going to get around to making a dedicated jig... whats worked well so far is i simply clamp angle iron to the table for the top and bottom rails, then use some short sections of 3" pipe for the spacing. when the pickets have collars i have to use spacers to get the rails off the table. once the pickets are tacked then i stand the railing up, clamp a straightedge at the desired height and the collars fall where they need to be. then weld it up. i like doing it this way bc i dont have to weld vertical, or have all the weldment on one side and have the rails canted to one side.i would recommend against tig welding the collars. ive done this. theyre usually pretty low quality castings and full of trash, meaning theyre always popping and fuming nasty stuff that leaves your tungsten and heap of balled up sputtering trash. see about renting a wire feed unit and running fluxcore. that will run off your cc machine. i had a 110 lincoln unit and gave eventually it away, its a pos, but actually works wonderful for this type of application, they dont get very good penetration and the duty cycle sucks, but they will get the job done. id also look into getting pre punched channel, it makes things go alot faster , it seems there's always a few pickets that dont want to fit.
Reply:Originally Posted by dubl_tHey SS,Interesting project, I'm looking forward to pics.Myself, not to be contrary, but between arc and tig, I'd lean toward stick as that's what I'm more proficient at; and I'd use 6013 and 309 electrode.  I'm just too dambed slow at tig.
Reply:Originally Posted by rusty ripplei like that jig, one of theses days im going to get around to making a dedicated jig... whats worked well so far is i simply clamp angle iron to the table for the top and bottom rails, then use some short sections of 3" pipe for the spacing. when the pickets have collars i have to use spacers to get the rails off the table. once the pickets are tacked then i stand the railing up, clamp a straightedge at the desired height and the collars fall where they need to be. then weld it up. i like doing it this way bc i dont have to weld vertical, or have all the weldment on one side and have the rails canted to one side.i would recommend against tig welding the collars. ive done this. theyre usually pretty low quality castings and full of trash, meaning theyre always popping and fuming nasty stuff that leaves your tungsten and heap of balled up sputtering trash. see about renting a wire feed unit and running fluxcore. that will run off your cc machine. i had a 110 lincoln unit and gave eventually it away, its a pos, but actually works wonderful for this type of application, they dont get very good penetration and the duty cycle sucks, but they will get the job done. id also look into getting pre punched channel, it makes things go alot faster , it seems there's always a few pickets that dont want to fit.
Reply:Originally Posted by DieselDon16I'm glad you brought this up...The cast steel stuff like "King Metals" sells is a PITA to weld.  Everything comes coated in oil and not very clean. There very cheaply made and seem thrown together. The smoke and smells that come off there castings are horrible. Some of there scrolls, friezes, castings I have ordered are frankly unnaceptable. Broken welds, ugly welds,  grinding marks, gouges in there products that I won't put my name on.  Also I think there customer service is horrible.  I won't do business with them.If you haven't ordered your collars yet check out a company simply called "Custom Ironworks LTD". There out of Arizona.  I think there quality and pricing are outstanding.  They carry just about everything King does.  And there customer service is excellent.  They keep you up to date with truck routing numbers and are great to work with.http://customironworks.com/