Please Help Me Reinforce This!

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Hey guys!Spoiler thread for you guys since almost nothing about this is on my channel yet... I'm in the process of swapping the powertrane of a 1981 Chebby Have Ton into a 1948 Farmall H, partly for reasons, mostly for the lulz. Anyway, the problem is that I've had to make the frame out of 4" channel, because thats really the only shape and size of material that fits the front "bolster" of the tractor, the part with the wheels and steering assembly, and that fits the brackets on the bellhousing on the opposite end.I used the heaviest 4" channel I could find, and then fishplated it with intermittent welds, and then ran 3 crossmembers, but it still flexes. You can grab the steering shaft on the front of the tractor and rock it back and forth and the whole thing twists right before your eyes. Although this is made mostly as a toy and wont see any tractor pulling or heavy plowing or anything, this still concerns me. And I dont really know how I should stiffen this up. My main concern is the rotational torque of the engine... On the original tractor, this "circular" twisting action as the engine revs was transferred right into the bellhousing, but now, all that force is on the channel iron frame. I'm afraid over time this will weaken the frame and it'll crack/split, although it IS channel so it WILL flex, and HRS is fairly ductile, I'm still concerned.1) Should I be worried2) If yes, how should I reinforce this? My best idea has been to buy some stiffer square tube (as its extremely resistant to twisting), and weld it onto the channel iron, but I'm open to any/all relevant thoughts and ideas. Thanks in advance!P/S this picture was taken before the fishplates, and third crossmember were installed[Account Abandoned 8/8/16 Please Do Not Attempt Contact Or Expect A Reply]. See you on YouTube! -ChuckE2009
Reply:What about adding some taller channel to the underside of that frame?
Reply:Lanse,The simplest way I can think of to stiffen that C-Channel frame would be to weld a plate across the bottom of the frame, from one channel to the other.  Make the plate and long as is practical, and the same thickness as the channel.  Ideally, you'd do this across the top of the channel also; created a rectangular hollow section.  But it looks like this isn't possible with the engine located where it is.  You should add some bracing across the top anywhere you can.  A series of flat plates would work, if you can work them in underneath the engine.The key is to make the frame rails into a hollow rectangular tube.  This shape will be much more resistant to torsional forces.  Keep in mind that any place that isn't a box section will absorb a greater portion of any torsional forces that occur.  Try to make the plates continuous on the bottom and try to keep them evenly spaced and the same size across the top of the channel.Channel and I- or H-beam structurals a great at resisting bending forces perpendicular to the web that connects the flanges.  But they're poor at resisting torsional(twisting) forces.  you have to look to hollow sections for maximum resistance to torsional forces.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Make yourself a belly pan type affair, simiiar to how an Oliver tractor is setup. You may need to have the plate bent into a U shape with lips to attach to the bottom web or better yet ran up the sides and bolted on the sides. Make cutout holes for filter and drain plug. Use hillside washers if mounting to the tapered flange.
Reply:The biggest problem I see is the length of the channel. Get rid of the transmission and transfer case and bolt the engine directly to the tractor bellhousing. Then you can take about 5 feet out of the channel. The tractor is geared so low that the auto tranny will never shift out of first anyway!
Reply:short of making a big box its gona flex bad.......run 2 more long channels about 2ft higher or whatever you need to clear the engine and then put in all your cross members and support gussets...plus on the bell housing side you should make a heavy plate at least 1/2 thick the shape of the bell housing to catch all the bolt holes and weld the channel onto the plate, you may be stressing the housing in just 2 small spots and it will crack.just cut a hole in the middle for the drive shaft to pass through..Last edited by roadkillbobb; 10-01-2015 at 03:29 PM.Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:You could always build a truss for the bottom of the channel..Sorta like how we USED to do rear end housings to keep the axle tubes from bending in under hard launch......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:have you tried reinforcing the channel with a thick flat bar?
Reply:This might sound cruel, but, I have a feeling that discarding the channel completely will be the quickest route. Find a piece of rectangle tube that is a similar size to your channel and start over.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:You could box the frame, common hot rod trick when you toss in too much engine for the car. Make cross members for the framing in a trapezoidal shapes, lets you drop that engine lower too. Then I would run a single beam from cross section to cross section with gussets. Giving you a bit more strength. Or like said before make a plate for the old trans and motor to mate. Your issue is absence of lateral support.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkif you can step across it I can weld it.
Reply:Texas! It is all making sense to me now.
Reply:I'd box it for sure for starters... Then if I needed more I'd run either some heavy DOM  between the frame rails or some stiff plate as suggested above. What you used should be plenty heavy enough once you tweak it a little.Millermatic 180Hypertherm PM65 083300CandCNC Dragon Cut Linux 620-4 Bundle with Linux Computer Precision Plasma Magnum HD 5x5 Gantry kit
Reply:Look at some truck frames to get an idea of how they have built crossmember it might give you a good idea since older trucks usually had pretty straight frames with 3/32 c channel.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkif you can step across it I can weld it.
Reply:LanseI'm familiar with your beast - I'd start over . . .What is your desired final look, i.e. how is it shrouded?Is it Hill Billy, Gangster, Rat Rod, or do you want an OEM look?   You have made the mistake of succumbing to convience overaddressing design/engineering issues first.Your channel [ease] approach produces more problems than solutions.Consider the Shelby Cobra development paradigm.The mission was to get 10# of feces in a 5# sack . . .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra Place all of the vitals in their proper orientation:engine on axis with tranny, steering shaft direct to the worm riser, a custom radiator to service the big block, but fits in faux OEM tin.Then design a 'serpentine bridge' to carry all of the vitals in theirproper place.  This frame can be designed to utilize common hotrolled sections - and made to look original."I've had to make the frame out of 4" channel, because thats really the only shape and size of material that fits the front "bolster" of the tractor."The 'Bolster and Bell Adapters' to carry the 'serpentine bridge' are addressed last, and are actually easy - because interface design isconnecting A to B . . . Opus
Reply:Thanks for the advice guys! I started adding plates today. Even with just two fully installed, the frame is MUCH more rigid. Videos of the project begin posting tomorrow morning [Account Abandoned 8/8/16 Please Do Not Attempt Contact Or Expect A Reply]. See you on YouTube! -ChuckE2009
Reply:What if you were to take some more of that channel iron and weld it to the channel you have now but have it facing out so that it turns into an I beam like thing?My "collection":Homemade Stick WelderVictor O/A TorchAC 225Ideal Arc 250HF 90 Amp Flux CoreHF Mig 170Solar 2020 Plasma CutterPower i-Mig 140EHarris O/A torchHF Dual Mig 131140STAlpha Tig 200x
Reply:My cousin has an F30 with Buick V8. It does wheelies. I'll look at it to see how he framed it. Another local fellow has a manufactured retrofit kit with a Ford flathead V8 in an 8N a very nice looking machine. Fact is these machines are equally practical to the motorized recliners you see now and then.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Most of the f30's had a 2x4 box tube and I want to say 1/4 to 3/8 thick . I have some frames under a press for feet works great. But with that length you will probably need a cross member or two. Looks nice. We have a m wth a m&w overdrive transmission in it. Doubles all the gears except high I think.goes really fast in reverse.
Reply:Originally Posted by Iain PWhat if you were to take some more of that channel iron and weld it to the channel you have now but have it facing out so that it turns into an I beam like thing?
Reply:At the back where the frame meets the old engine mounting surface, add in more metal that uses the existing unused holes, then brace down from that to the channel. Make sense?Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
Reply:After seeing that clusterfluck the only thing to save it is a torch and a do-over.
Reply:Depth and the improvement of the section modulus will strengthen the frame up,beams have to have depth to length to carry any load. Boxing will help the most.
Reply:A drive shaft is the ultimate torque tube. You can make plates to adapt pipe to the tractor housing and use 3" OD pipe for a frame. That was what I used years ago with a blown 454 on one of those. I actually had two on each side with a bunch of crossbracing and crossmembers. It held up for years.
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROLanseI'm familiar with your beast - I'd start over . . .What is your desired final look, i.e. how is it shrouded?Is it Hill Billy, Gangster, Rat Rod, or do you want an OEM look?   You have made the mistake of succumbing to convience overaddressing design/engineering issues first.Your channel [ease] approach produces more problems than solutions.Consider the Shelby Cobra development paradigm.The mission was to get 10# of feces in a 5# sack . . .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra Place all of the vitals in their proper orientation:engine on axis with tranny, steering shaft direct to the worm riser, a custom radiator to service the big block, but fits in faux OEM tin.Then design a 'serpentine bridge' to carry all of the vitals in theirproper place.  This frame can be designed to utilize common hotrolled sections - and made to look original."I've had to make the frame out of 4" channel, because thats really the only shape and size of material that fits the front "bolster" of the tractor."The 'Bolster and Bell Adapters' to carry the 'serpentine bridge' are addressed last, and are actually easy - because interface design isconnecting A to B . . . Opus
Reply:I've been watching the series.. First I would say ditch the transfer case. As others have pointed out, the tractor is geared so low it is unnecessary. Same with the trans. That 350 will really only rev to about 5,000rpm or so. Farmall engine would rev to about 1600 I believe. Despite the 350 putting out 3x the rpm, I don't think that gear reduction going into the tractor trans is very necessary. Perhaps a simple 2-speed manual transmission that cuts the rpm down? Either way, I would do whatever you can do to shorten the frame. Frame tubes would be interesting, that design was used on a lot of tractors over the years. Of course, by now the thing could be 100% running and driving.. just have to wait for the videos I suppose.Ps, any plans to make it an 8-cylinder again and not a 7? http://www.youtube.com/pacificdrumma1996 K2500, 1970's Sears Suburbans80's Cebora MIG, Everlast PowerTig 200DXwhat they said Or you could plate the inside of the channel with 3/8 plate full length then put 3 or 4 tubing cross members inshould take most of the twist outGood luck on whatever your fix is been watching you do this  kinda interesting
Reply:Originally Posted by John TWeirdo:a strange or unusual person a person who is extraordinarily strange or eccentricA non-comformist who does not follow trends or a subculture.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BWhat did your mother tell you? If you don't have anything nice to say............
Reply:Lance, love watching your videos. After watching your last video, I was thinking maybe some "traction bars" installed midway from the frame back to the rear axle? That should help stiffen up the side to side movement you may still have?
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BWhat did your mother tell you? If you don't have anything nice to say............
Reply:He marches to the beat of a drummer no one else can hear.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Willie-B Thanx for the back-up . . . .John-T All is well - the skin on my nipples is thicker than the skin on your back.Opus
Reply:You can plate the channel all you want, still won't help in my opinion, watch where it flex's, back at the bell housing of the tractor. The traction bar idea/bracing from the  rear axles up to the channel is your best bet, it should take the flex/twist load off the bell housing area of the tractor.________________________________Everlast PA140STEverlast PowerPlasma 50And no you can't Borrow them
Reply:Instead of the cigarette boat, you have the cigarette tractor... only to be outdone by Red Green's cigarette bus where he chopped a city bus and had just a cab with all the controls at the back. One of his greatest projects in my opinion and held together with duct tape!
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROWillie-B Thanx for the back-up . . . .John-T All is well - the skin on my nipples is thicker than the skin on your back.Opus
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROAll is well - the skin on my nipples is thicker than the skin on your back.Opus
Reply:Lance start over, lower the unit. Run straight drive line in frame make a tubing frame widen out . Two 3/8 plates will make mounts. The block will stiffen frame up.Good luck!
Reply:I think the high center of gravity combined with the leverage of its location is going to be is undoing.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:The crankshaft really should be down on the same plane as the input shaft on the tranny. I like Pavinsteel's suggestion. Any more recent pics of the build or clips of it running?250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:After watching the most recent video. I bet the fuel pump push rod is jammed between the cam and block. Either try turning the engine by hand and see if it comes loose, or weld something to it to leverage it out. Or just go get a cheap electric fuel pump. On the dead Cylinder, I would just leave that plug out. It's just dragging the engine down. Thing has a ton of blowby. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
Reply:79jasper, the excessive blowby could be from the hole in the piston in the dead cylinder!
Reply:That's what I was thinking. Which is why I would leave that plug out. Maybe Rig up another breather to it. LolSent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
Reply:I've seen 2 M's with Chevy engines in my lifetime. Both times they took the FarmAll flywheel and machined/mated it to the Chevy flywheel. Then they made an adapter plate to attach the engine to the tractor bell housing/transmission. This allowed them to use the tractor clutch. Both guys said that by putting an aftermarket governor on it you could still plow with it as it would prevent it from lugging down.The 3rd machine I ever saw, he cut the truck frame off after the cab attached it to the transmission of the tractor! I have a digital picture of it somewhere?All three of these guys said that a 12 mile an hour tractor turned into a 40 mile an hour racer due to engine speed!