Classic Welders are like Classic Cars

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...and that being said, the SA-200 from the earlier years are obviously touted as the supreme smooth ZZ Top machines in their class.  I've seen many offers from guys with late model 200's willing to swap for an oldie.I'd like to switch gears a bit.  Let's completely forget the SA 200 gasser as if there was no more gasoline at all.  Just diesel.  SA-250, nothing else.....nada.  Now to make matters interesting, let's say you have walked into the "SA-250 SuperStore" with a wallet full of money.  They have 250's from the very beginning to today's models.  And they all run and all weld.  But they have their different nuances.  Perkins, Kubota's, etc..........and they are all the same price.  I didn't say they all weld the same, just that they all work as if factory new.Which one do you pick?As an option, you also have a secondary wallet full of cash to modify, hot rod, or fine tune any one that you choose to suit your likes.Which year model do you pick?  Year model can be a range of years in which the machines were identical.This may sound stupid, but I have a point in mind.  I'm not sure what it is, but I know how I want to get to it.Help me out guys.  I am wide open to be educated.  And very interested.Thanks.....curtis
Reply:I would pick the earliest year they made them with 110AC on them.
Reply:New tech beats old, hands down. Same goes for automobiles.  Yeah the classics look cool,  but new cars are more efficient, drive and ride better,  and have more hp.ɹǝʌo ǝɯ lloɹ 'sıɥʇ pɐǝɹ uɐɔ noʎ ɟı
Reply:If you are running a business, buy the new stuff, make money, and replace it if it dies.If you are not a production user, "classics" are often more durable and much simpler. As an option, you also have a secondary wallet full of cash to modify, hot rod, or fine tune any one that you choose to suit your likes.
Reply:I'd say the 3 cyl Perkins engine and the DC exciter models.  What, late 70's early 80's. IMO these were as close to a SA200 as you could get.We always turned down the rpms a little and maybe roll the rack down a tad and these machines would weld good man.  And they would stay with you too.  Very solid. lol  But IMO all that changed when the 250 went to the AC exciter.And for fun I'd like to cut one down to a small size frame.  They were big machines but there was room to chop on them quite a bit. Good luckSlowhand
Reply:A company I worked for had several classic II's.  I gotta say, compared to a ranger, they are better on gas and are easy to perform field maintenance on when they mess the bed!  Quieter too.  Weigh a heck of a lot more, but other than that...
Reply:Slowhand, that's the kind of information I was hoping to get.  AC vs. DC exciter......etc.  I don't weld for a living, but I work very closely with the pipeline/gas plant industry.  I have been looking for a "donor" 250 machine with the 3-cyl Perkins (3.152) for an anal personal science project.  I want to take the power end and the welding end as individual items, completely disassemble and rejuvenate them.  Kinda like a race car project.  No reason other than to see if I can come up with a machine that you can stand a dime on and that produces a good arc.  See where I'm going?Let's hear some more input, it could get interesting.curtis
Reply:I would love to be able to do the same thing, but you can't get parts now days. Lincoln don't make them anymore. lolYou can go used,  rebuilt, aftermarket, hand wound, etc,  replacement parts and to repair/restore a 250 today that's what it'll be because new parts just don't exist.  And its been several years since Lincoln has made new replacement parts for them too.  So slim chance of finding much laying on dusty shelves somewhere.Good luck with your project Slowhand
Reply:I wasn't figuring on having to obtain new parts.  Except maybe decals and a new faceplate.  I have access to some guys who do high-quality engine machine work.  I'm talking with a fella that can obtain information and expertise on the elictrical side of things, rewinding, machining, right types of wire, etc........I also realize (from past anal personal science projects) that the sum of my tinkering around would probably buy 2 brand new machines by the time I get done........but heck, this is more for entertainment purposes (been to a movie lately..??..$$$).  I don't have a set time frame either, just need something to keep me out of the beerjoint.  (!!!!did I just say that!!??)It's amazing how much different a diesel engine runs when as many of the sources of vibration are removed as is possible.I just need a raw machine, non-working, but complete would be nice.  I don't mind scavenging, it can be kinda fun, but I'd rather locate a whole machine..........Hence, the reason I'm asking about different years and such.......You mentioned "chopped".  I've seen guys flatten the nose so they could set a machine in a pickup.  What about turning a 250 diesel into a "short hood"....???  Nothing is unreasonable to consider.
Reply:Originally Posted by cwood3I wasn't figuring on having to obtain new parts.  Except maybe decals and a new faceplate.  I have access to some guys who do high-quality engine machine work.  I'm talking with a fella that can obtain information and expertise on the elictrical side of things, rewinding, machining, right types of wire, etc........I also realize (from past anal personal science projects) that the sum of my tinkering around would probably buy 2 brand new machines by the time I get done........but heck, this is more for entertainment purposes (been to a movie lately..??..$$$).  I don't have a set time frame either, just need something to keep me out of the beerjoint.  (!!!!did I just say that!!??)It's amazing how much different a diesel engine runs when as many of the sources of vibration are removed as is possible.I just need a raw machine, non-working, but complete would be nice.  I don't mind scavenging, it can be kinda fun, but I'd rather locate a whole machine..........Hence, the reason I'm asking about different years and such.......You mentioned "chopped".  I've seen guys flatten the nose so they could set a machine in a pickup.  What about turning a 250 diesel into a "short hood"....???  Nothing is unreasonable to consider.
Reply:Here is acouple of pictures I got from another site Attached Images
Reply:Cwood,I am getting close to wrapping up a restore (whatever) on a early 1980's SA-250. To date this is what I have done:1. complete engine rebuild including balancing2. new injectors, rebuilt pump3. new doors4. Exciter and armature turned5. stripped to frame and repainted, inside and out , hood is getting flames in light gray on the dark charcoal grey.6. body work on existing sheet metal7. New serial number and model number panel8. New batteryI haven't been talking about it much as its way behind schedule and just yesterday got the short block done.Paint is ready to spray, but its primed all and the welder/armature assy is all painted.There are a lot of little odds and ends I didn't mention, and once its done, I am taking it to the Lincoln repair and installing new carbons on the exciter and armature, and having them stoned.Getting close and once I get a tad further I will take some pics.OBTW the guy who originally owned it has already chopped it so that didn't need to be done. Interesting part it the bottom end with 8500 hour on it, the rebuilder said they could have reused the bearingsthey were in that good of shape. He is always commenting on how overbuilt the 3 cylinder Perkins motors are, and I could have probably got another 2000-3000 hours out of it buy just fixing the injectors and pump. I kept looking at core charge prices and figured I would be safe not sorry and just rebuilt it, I don't want maintenace issues period.
Reply:Originally Posted by cwood3. . .No reason other than to see if I can come up with a machine that you can stand a dime on and that produces a good arc.  See where I'm going?
Reply:" Yeah, better get some J-B Weld to hold that dime on edge with a Perkins." Perkins hum, sound like a Puddy Tat purring
Reply:Originally Posted by fredschrom Perkins hum, sound like a Puddy Tat purring
Reply:Denrep,Heres a link to a rebuilt D3.152, runs as smooth as my Cummins: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-OG35cxpXw[/ame]TSOR,Welders aren't cars, and your statement is the skin of the truth wrapping a lie. Solid copper armatures last, and are more effecient, Lincoln still makes a few. And old Perkins diesels last and last, simple, overbuilt, and a D3.152 has 38 hp as opposed to the new machines with 32 HP. You are also forgetting federally mandated junk like diesel emisions, so you get less HP for the same gas mileage. And yes I can see why you think that way, but in cars the two biggest reliability increases were getting rid of carburators and and going to electronic ignitions. Transmissions, drivetrains and blocks didn't change that much and a lot are just refined versions of the old stuff.Back in the day, we got enormous horsepower out of motors, then came 1972 federal emmisions act. by 1975 when it was fully in effect horsepower had dropped anywhere from a 1/3 on higher end cars like Porsche, to a full 1/2 on a lot of the Detroit stuff. Do you remember ONE good car out of the 80's? It was until mid 90's that emmisions and horsepower started getting back to performance.Back on topic kind of late to the party why didn't anybody ever put a fuel injection on a continetal? Seems like that would be a big step in the right direction. Nowdays guys are trying to figure out how to put diesels in them for lack of parts
Reply:Originally Posted by fredschromDenrep,Heres a link to a rebuilt D3.152, runs as smooth as my Cummins. . .
Reply:OK guys, I'mglad I instigated some fire, but let's think positive.  There's 8 ways, at least, to skina cat.
Reply:I bet there is a way to modify a throttle body to a continental. I have seen them for the old jeep cj's as aftermarket.Miller Pro 30068 SA 20064 SAF 300305 G Lincoln gasserMiller 210
Reply:bolted in a rigid frame tractor and with an 800 pound flywheel. Actually just got done dinking around with my flywheel and its about 100 lbs, massive.BTW I don't buy the dime standing either." Watching that clip just shook my monitor screen apart."See if you had one of those old school tube monitors it wouldn't have missed a lick
Reply:In my personal opinion of course = I think Perkins are the smoothest diesels Lincoln ever put in their machines.  But.... the 3 cylinders aren't as smooth as the 4's IMO.  A 4 cylinder on high idle is pretty smooth (IMO they are smooth enough)  and even on low idle they are not that rough. Again IMO.  I say it's because of having indirect injection.The 3 cylinder Perkins I agree were slightly more rough on high idle and I could feel that in the arc.  I can feel the 4 cylinders in the arc too, but not quite as much, and I've welded many hours with both versions of these engines over the years.Good luckSlowhand
Reply:Slowhand,I asked before but why don't you like the new SAE 300 ? I am sure you have your reasons and I am curious. On paper it looks good but then so did the Chevy Vega.
Reply:I know several pipeliners down here in south Texas that are running the SAE 300. They all love them. I am actually considering buying one myself. I am always open to all the opinions. I have been using SA 200's every since I started welding. My current machine is a 1953 shorthood with Arc Force and I have not found another welder yet that comes close. My brother is running a 08 Pipeliner 200D and it welds good, but it has a softer arc and isn't quite as stable. I have also put quite a few hours on a Classic III and I hated that machine! The arc was horrible on that machine and it only had 200 hours on it. I am a true believer in the old SA 200 copper wound, but it may be time to give a diesel another shot!
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepYeah, better get some J-B Weld to hold that dime on a Perkins. In fact everything on the truck better be "Locktighted" too. Sounds like an interesting project though.Why not  go with a pure DC  "round barrel" and Perkins?Good Luck
Reply:This thread is about the Lincoln SA250 so I hate to let you hijack it with your question about sae300's, but..... I probably made some of my best welds ever with those old SA250 welders since I worked like 18 years for a contractor that had nothing but sa250s for most of those years.  Later on they did go to 300d's but it was never the same as those old days for them.They tried the Classic machines and I've used every Classic Lincoln has ever offered then they went with 300d's.  I was never impressed like I was with the old DC version of the SA250's.  I was a sa200 man to the bone back then.  Now for your sae300 question.  What I have said is, "if you like Lincoln's 300D then you will love their new sae300 machine".  I'm not a follower of their 300d so at the same time I'm not all that impressed with their sae300 machine.  But if you like the 300d then you will be a complete follower of their sae300 machine.  All I have to say is good luck to you. lol  I don't want either machine nor do I want to weld with any of them anymore.  I'm happy where I'm at and I want to stay there.  So your sae300's and your 300D are for other people, not for me because I don't want either of them. lolTo each his own.  Its not my deal and I don't want to mess with it.  I'm too old.    Go try one out for yourself, or go buy one for yourself, just don't ask me any more questions about them.  I don't want to know. I don't want to talk about them, nor do I want to weld with them.  I am too old to deal with all of that anymore.   I don't want to know anymore.    I want to FORGET!!!! Later guys,SlowhandLast edited by slowhand; 02-12-2012 at 08:08 PM.Slowhand" I am too old to deal with all of that anymore"Old is a state of mind, sixty is closer than fifty for me. But I understand on burned out, years I was into state of the art electronics/computers/crypto's for shipboard applications, now I use a computer and thats all I want to do just tired of chasing the never ending tech spiral.Welding is relativly new for me been doing about 40 years, but only the last couple really serious.My truck welder is a SA-250 BTW.
Reply:If anybody hears of a busted donor SA-250, let me know.
Reply:Well, I'm back.  A slight change of plans, but I'm more enthusiastic than ever.  I ended up picking up an SA-200, 1967 vintage.  No doors but the rest of the body and frame are in perfect shape, no rust.  The engine runs great and it was said that it welds great, but I didn't go as far as hooking up leads and trying that out......that didn't matter.So.....I have completelt disassembled the machine, engine, generator, everything.The plan:Thorough complete engine overhaul with akll new parts *** deemed necessary.Engine machine work to include:Check cylinder bore, bore if necessary (looked beautiful)Resurface block to headBalance rotating assemblyGenerator work to include:Inspect, clean, rework, dip, balance main & exciter armaturesInspect, clean, rework, main, interpole, series coilsReplace wiring from generator to controlsRestore control panel to 1967 correctAll auxilliary parts refurbed to 1967 correct (generator/canister oil filter/oil bath air filter)Replate, refinish all bolt on parts to 1967 correct finishHeck....everything elseAll body/frame/sheet myetal restored to show car quality and the color correct powder coatWhat else?So far, I've had to buy an engine hoist, engine stand, 1/2" electric impact, bead blaster, Caswell coatlin/plating products, wierd sockets ,pullers.........etcMy litt;e praline is ready to throw me outta da house...(not really,she's been a good sport)BTW, I have been taking extensive photos and will post a before and after displaySomebody egg me on so I stay on track!!!!!Thanks
Reply:I have a bit quiet on my rebuild on my SA-250....why? Its taking forever, mostly parts and sourcing or fabricating, but I am on the downhill slide so to speak. Parts have been miserable, and its always a relatively cheap nickle and dime part thats two weeks out. Anyway a couple of more parts to paint, ( its going Lincoln grey with white and light grey flames no decals ).Here is a pic of the Perkins 3 cylinder, completly rebuilt, balance, rebuilt injector pump, new injectors, and a ton of other small parts I am not going to list. It needs valve adjustmant, hoses, and a flush through the cooling system as its got a ton of scale and I wirebrushed what I could, but you can't get everywhere  I think it was run on North Dakota water in the coolant system.Anyway  excuse my crappy pic but here is the motor all rebuilt:Once I get it finished up I will post some more.
Reply:I fell your pain............stay with it.  We don't do this because we are smarter than everybodyelse, we do it because it's a fun man thing.......and that sense of personal satisfaction.  A SA-250 is on my bucket list.
Reply:Originally Posted by fredschrom Do you remember ONE good car out of the 80's? It was until mid 90's that emmisions and horsepower started getting back to performance.