Frame extension/hitch for the flaming!

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Didn't get a pic of what came off the truck because it is raining. Here is whats going on the truck to replace the rusted out extension/hitch. I'll get a pic of the old stuff one of these days.All joints are welded on both sides, root, filler, filler/cap.  All edges beveled and jig welded. Still have some work to do. There will be bolted plates yet over the extension to truck frame joint. Nit pick all you want but I would like input on the receiver for the ball itself. The weld around the 3/4" chunk is a root pass, 3 filler passes, and a final cap pass with some filler. Minimum weld thickness should be 1/2", should this be fine or should the parallel sides be gusseted from the top to the c-channel?  I know eye hooks aren't the best thing to use but its what we've had on all the trucks since forever and thats how my father wants it.
Reply:did you make that channel yourself or did you buy it preformed?  are you going to put a cross member in between the channels...  no flame from me,  I'll leave that for the pro'sTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:What kind of weight are putting on this?The welds do not look too bad, but in the last picture, bottom left corner, it looks a bit bubblegummy. Definetly need to tie the top of the frame together and that drop is just a poor idea without more support.  It is a lever, the weight of the trailer moving back and forth will stress that too much.  It needs additional gusseting.LOSE THE EYE BOLTS.  IT WILL FAIL.  MIGHT AS WELL NOT HAVE ANY CHAIN HOOKS.  THOSE ARE OKAY FOR A FEW HUNDRES POUNDS STRAIGHT LOAD AND ZERO POUNDS LATERAL.  THEY WILL FAIL!!!
Reply:The welds don't look all that good to me with the exception of the one on the heavy flat bar. Even that looks like it needs more heat. It looks quite similar to the "good" looking beads I've seen people do with an under powered 110v mig on heavy steel. The others are very irregular and quite humped. The one shown at the frame is particularly ugly. The frame tie in is all wrong and the design itself doesn't look well thought out.Note that welding directly to a frame is usually not recomended by most manufacturers. There are several reasons for this, one of which being many newer frames are high tensile steel and heat treated. This means the require special fillers and  very specific welding procedures to be done correctly. A standard 70 grade wire may not be the right filler  for this depending on the frame composition. I see almost no sign of prep beyond a basic wire brushing, especially at the frame joint.  You need to have gotten rid of all the rust there 1st with a grinder. I'd bet the weld itself is contaminated because of this and porous. Your vertical weld on this joint also needs some more work.Design wise there's all sorts of issues. Any towing load on that hitch will try and rotate the frame extension around the welds at the truck frame.  Add a vertical load on this section from above and you just make the situation worse. The way you have that splice done is all wrong for this type of application. The frame extension probably needed to go back past the spring hangers forward a couple of feet and then have the splice done at an angle with fish plates. Also the 45 deg corner is not how I would have done that joint. At a minimum I'd have added some gussets to transfer the loads more efficently. I'd also add a cross member at the back up top because there's no lateral strength the way this is designed right now. Also the bottom channel but welded to the uprights would not be how I would have done this. I'd have notched the lower and welded it inside the verticals so the vertical channel helps take the load better and you aren't simply relying on the welds. Again I'd have had gussets here as well. The issue with the eye hooks have already been covered.Out of curiosity what machine and settings are you using? Looking at the beads, I'd guess either a 110v machine on max, or a 220v mig set too low..Last edited by DSW; 07-28-2011 at 11:42 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:^^^^^^^^What he said.Another reason why I should not comment about how things look while on my cell phone.  Too damn small to see anything.
Reply:It looks like you tigged this setup.  That's OK, but I would like to see a lot better welds regardless of the process.  The design is an accident waiting to happen!  The joint designs are wrong for what you are doing and the material also looks to be too light for a cross piece for the ball hitch.  Looks like 3/16" or 1/4" at best and you put a 1/2" fillet on both sides of the 3/4" part for the ball.  If it's 1/4" then that is all the weld you need for the fillet.  More weld than the thickest piece of steel that it is welded to will not make it stronger.  The eye bolts are useless for safety chains.  They will open up at the first bit of tension applied to them.  Time to tell dad that this is all a bad idea and get some professional help before someone gets hurt.  Just because it worked before or that's the way we've always done it is not a valid excuse.  If something goes terribly wrong, someone could lose their life and you could lose everything you have or ever will have.If you want a free professional opinion, park it in front of an engineering company's office and watch the looks of horror, amusement and head shaking that will occur as an engineer walks past and sees this."The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State, because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government."  Teddy RooseveltAmerican by birth, Union by choice!  Boilermakers # 60America is a Union.
Reply:The c-channel was formed at a local metal shop. It is a match to the trucks 6x2x3/16".The hitch itself only gets used to tow a 1300# boat. The extension has to hold an equipment box that gets a max load of about 200#.The machine is a lincoln 175 tig set at 165 amps and floored. Every weld along the 6" sides has 4-5 1/16" filler rods in it, front and back. So every joint has a total of at least 8 filler rods in it. The thick flat to c-channel has 6 filler rods on each side plus two more on the front and back side. There is 100% penetration on every joint and the weld areas were clean, you can kind of see the cleaned area on the truck side of the joint but has flash rusted over within hours because of the humidity right now. The glazing on the steel was cleaned off within 1/4" of all the welds on the new parts. I appreciate the input! I am all about making this stuff safe within reason. What you see here is 100% bigger and stronger then what was on the truck before and the previous setup was done up by an actual trucking company.
Reply:A 1300lb load on a trailer being towed down the high way at the speed limit can and does exert tremendous stresses on a hitch, especially on a rough road.  And I have driven in Wisconsin, most roads are like Illinois has; poor and terrible.  This may cause me to rethink the trip the wife and I had planned to Stevens Point for the recumbent rally the Hostel Shoppe has planned for Aug. 5-7."The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State, because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government."  Teddy RooseveltAmerican by birth, Union by choice!  Boilermakers # 60America is a Union.
Reply:Does your 175 do SMAW too?   I think that may have been a better way to go here with your amperage limits.  I think you would have done better with some standard 6 inch C channel as both angles are thicker and stronger than 3/16 plate.  Also agree with the design suggestions postedTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTEvery weld along the 6" sides has 4-5 1/16" filler rods in it, front and back. So every joint has a total of at least 8 filler rods in it. The thick flat to c-channel has 6 filler rods on each side plus two more on the front and back side.
Reply:There outta be a law.  Never thought I would be saying this.Gordie -- "I believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob the WelderA 1300lb load on a trailer being towed down the high way at the speed limit can and does exert tremendous stresses on a hitch, especially on a rough road.  And I have driven in Wisconsin, most roads are like Illinois has; poor and terrible.  This may cause me to rethink the trip the wife and I had planned to Stevens Point for the recumbent rally the Hostel Shoppe has planned for Aug. 5-7.
Reply:after looking at the pictures, no way in hell would i use a piece of channel for the piece where the ball is mounted..  it will not work, and is a death trap...  4inch grinder and cutoff wheel and cut it all off to the stock frame.... edited and put some thought into it.. i would Z cut the frame about 3/4 inch in front of the rear crossmember..  remove the stock crossmember and make one out of 2x4 and 2x6 and weld the crossmember in solid...  then i would build the hitch out of 2x6 tubing or stack 2x4 and 2x2 and then reduce it down to just 2x4 tubing.. then for the ball mount i would use a piece of tubing and slot it and pass a piece of 3/4" stock though it and weld on both sides... graft the hitch at the Z cut and fishplate it.  add some 6" boxed in gussets connecting the hitch you made and the stock frame, would also put some boxed gussets at the lower rear of the hitch..i would also add a crossmember at the rear top..  might would add check plate over it for a nice step.Last edited by brucer; 07-29-2011 at 10:53 AM.tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:By VPT;I understand the forces a trailer puts on a hitch setup especially on rough roads. However even where I am at right now (before finishing the project) this is stronger then a 12" drop hitch welded to a 2x2x1/4" tube which reese rated a V5 at 5000# towing and 500# tongue weight.What good does it do to build the hitch on a vehicle stronger then the frame of the vehicle itself?
Reply:too add.. you could take two 1/4" or 3/8" plates and cut the perimeter in the same shape as the perimeter of your hitch (L shape)..  cut six 2x2 holes in it, add in three 2x2 pieces of tubing for crossmembers and bolt it onto the existing stock frame and that would be much stronger than what you have now.tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:All is not lost.  I would remove the factory crossmember and bolt a 1/2 inch plate to the factory frame and to the new extension.  I would run the plate a fair distance past the joint in both directions.  Afterward I would bolt an X brace back where the original crossmember was and lastly, I would put a crossmember at the tail.  Just to be sure the welds on the new extension were up to snuff I would gusset the downward members that would reinforce the hitch member.As for the bottom hitch, I would cut it out, use box tubing and build a hitch where you could change out the balls.  Get rid of the eyebolts as they are a deadly and that would be a start for fixing your hitch.as for the welding, I have seen worse and there is always better.
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob the WelderBy VPT;So, that's what your calculations show?  The "frame extension" you have built as shown in the pictures is no where near as strong as the frame of the truck as it was designed.  And now you have added a large lever to the back of the frame with a very poor connection of no doubt weaker steel.  I would ask for a refund of money that you spent on your engineering degree.  Must have been the same school that ed mac attended!
Reply:I would have taken a different design approach by building an oversized hitch assembly and bolt it to the frame. Going under the existing truck frame would eliminate the need for the miter drop and help distribute the load better. It's a rough sketch but my general idea is: Attached Images
Reply:^ That would drag on the ground.Maybe I should have left this on the truck:That was what was built by a so called professional at a trucking company that sets up semis.
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawOh and as for the OP's title, you knew your design was substandard thus why you posted it the way you did.  Also I would bet money that at some point that 1300 lb trailer becomes a 5000 lb trailer of building material or some other item,  if not by you then the next uninformed soul you sell the truck to at some point in the future
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob the WelderBy VPT;So, that's what your calculations show?  The "frame extension" you have built as shown in the pictures is no where near as strong as the frame of the truck as it was designed.  And now you have added a large lever to the back of the frame with a very poor connection of no doubt weaker steel.  I would ask for a refund of money that you spent on your engineering degree.  Must have been the same school that ed mac attended!
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTThat was what was built by a so called professional at a trucking company that sets up semis.
Reply:dannyscam is looking for     just kiddin.. wheres ed's hitch?Last edited by brucer; 07-29-2011 at 07:52 PM.tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Originally Posted by brucerthe previous posters design wouldnt drag any less than your design, it looks the same drop as yours..
Reply:I would guess that the three in c channel is stronger than your formed piece. The safty chain eyes look like they are forged not just cheap formed ones. Plus you dont show how the old one was mounted those flat bar gussets would take alot of pull from the hitch if installed properly.Millermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammerOk tig wouldn't have been my 1st guess at this, but I can understand why you might choose this over stick. I'd tig it rather than stick weld it it those were my only options simply because I tig better than I stick weld vertical.Most of this should have been able to be welded flat on a bench, so I would have thought the welds would have looked better than they do. If it was all welded in position, that might explain  some of this.The original definately wasn't done by someone who had a clue either. Not saying much, the hitch that came with my F550 from the body company leaves something to be desired also for the tow weights that truck can pull based on factory specs.As far as the eye bolts on the original, they look to be forged eyes rather than the bent ones you have. Most forged  eyes are rated for overhead lifting and don't have an open loop like the ones you used and will not open up. I can't remember what the 3/4" dia forged lifting eyes I have are rated at right now..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:The eyes on the original are just rusted over and look forged. I was picking up new tail lights and some wood today and was looking in the trailer section at stuff. I did see the forged eye bolts, I admit those would be better then the rolled ones.
Reply:Coated it to keep the rust at bay until it is finished.
Reply:VPTWhat is the primary use for this truck? The bed has me stumped.Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:it s going break off it should of been pushed into the truck frame at least a foot welded and boltedLincoln Power Arc 4000 Thermal Arc Fabricator 252 iThermal arc 186Thermal Arc 26 tigTweeko 200 amp spool gunHobart AirForce 400WP-17V-12R
Reply:Originally Posted by assassin_worksit s going break off it should of been pushed into the truck frame at least a foot welded and bolted
Reply:Concerned with the way you tied to the frame,  Post #18 is a good representation of a good tie in. Attached is a picture of a hitch I built for my F350, 2 1/2 inch cross tube, wish I had used 3 or larger. Yes Reese uses a 2 inch in a 5K hitch.  The hitch you see here was boltet to the bottom of the frame and I later added plates at four locations as in post #18, very solid. Oh Yeah, connections bolted to truck frame with 3/4' grade 8 hardware , not welded.  That hitch is OK for 1300 lbs, but if it's there it'll get used for more someday, it just that way. And what if you loan or sell the truck, that hitch goes with it and the next guy may not know any better and hook a sizeable load on there,   You start welding things on a truck you have a legal and moral responsibility for the life of that add on.            Missed the picture in post #28 initially, That is way too much cantilever or extension on that but weld. You have downward forces on the hitch and and upward load at the spring hanger right at the butt weld. You need to improve this, or remove it. Sorry, just my humble opinion. Attached ImagesLast edited by kolot; 07-30-2011 at 08:53 AM."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:2 pounds of grade 8 bolts went into the hitch assembly yesterday. Mostly 3/4" but some 1/2" here and there. Top platform is all built and painted. Next I have to build the new equipment box.Kolot, your last pic looks like the receiver tube will just break off the cross tubing. I'd add some bracing to that.
Reply:Originally Posted by assassin_worksit s going break off
Reply:Why are you "cracked up" ?? You came seeking the advice of people who are subject matter experts with many years of experience, who know engineering, applied mechanical force and simply what works best and what doesn't. You received feedback that was contrary to what you were hoping to hear and so now everyone else must be the "idiot" ?? Learning to take constructive criticism is tough to do, but once you learn how to take it and put it to use you'll quickly excel beyond your peers.Anyway, enough of a "soap box" speech. I understand your "rebuilding" what was already there but that doesn't mean it was right the first time.Looking at your work you appear to have a good aptitude for fabricating with attention to detail. If you can learn to couple that with proper engineering and design you'll be very successful. However, have just one design fail due to improper engineering where life or property is destroyed and your career will be cut short. My advice on your next project is seek the advice and criticism before you build. Good luck and keep posting.
Reply:I didn't say anyone was an idiot or put anyones thoughts and recommendations down. I just simply said you guys crack me up. I understand everything they are saying and agree this isn't the best way to do this. However with over 400K miles on this truck I am not about to tear into the frame of the truck just to replace a rusted out added on section. The truck will never be sold, borrowed, leased, or lent to anyone else, ever. It will never pull anything different then what it has pulled for the last 15 years. The fix was better then original and will be just fine for much much longer then the truck will make it. I figure this truck only has 2 years left on it before it is replaced.
Reply:Did you start this post for input on your design/craftsmanship or did you post to tell everyone you think you know more than they do.I didn't previously comment because nearly all the faults with the design/execution have been covered.  One thing I will mention, in closing, is that relying on a butt weld between your fabricated hitch and the frame demonstrates a total lack of understanding of proper fabrication procedures.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:By VPT;I understand everything they are saying and agree this isn't the best way to do this.
Reply:You should have fish plated the butt weld to say the least Because that is your biggest weak pointBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:This is funny.
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11You should have fish plated the butt weld to say the least Because that is your biggest weak point
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob the WelderDid you add the two pieces of 3/8" x 1 1/2" strap to your design?  I would say that is what saved your (and the original installers) bacon.  Everybody gets lucky once in awhile, rarely does anybody get lucky all the time!I still think that you should park this in an engineering centers' parking lot and film the reactions of people who do design work for a living.  Would make one interesting Youtube video!
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIDid you start this post for input on your design/craftsmanship or did you post to tell everyone you think you know more than they do.
Reply:Must have missed a few then.  There have been threads on here showing entire trailer builds that were given thumbs up all around.  Then again, they showed exemplary workmanship and design."The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State, because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government."  Teddy RooseveltAmerican by birth, Union by choice!  Boilermakers # 60America is a Union.
Reply:Question - Is there enough clearance for a nut and socket, to install a ball?
Reply:Yes, the new ball is on and truck is over in another shop right now getting the gray tank on the truck taken care of while I build the new rear equipment box. When I tacked on that flat bar there was a ball on it for clearance.
Reply:By soutthpaw;Also I would bet money that at some point that 1300 lb trailer becomes a 5000 lb trailer of building material or some other item, if not by you then the next uninformed soul you sell the truck to at some point in the future
Reply:I'm still curious as to what this truck is used for. Hence the box on the back.Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:looks like it holds water for something.  then again   maybe its a big beer cooler!  for big outtings.>Innovations are what i leave behind for History
Reply:Originally Posted by MrLeadManI'm still curious as to what this truck is used for. Hence the box on the back.