Dynasty 200DX A/C problem

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First of all, apologies for cross-posting this from another forum. I'm not sure what the protocol there is but I know there's some overlap between them since I see some of the same posters.I've got a newish Dynasty that only has a few dozen hours and a few hundred arc starts on. Serial number says it was made in 2012. I've done all DC mode with no problem but never tried it on AC. Well, this weekend I bought a piece of scrap aluminum flat bar from the local metal shop and had a go.Brand new CK 210 torch with gas saver setup3/32" 2% lanthanatedAbout 15cfm argonabout 5/32" aluminium, or maybe 3/16"5356 fillerrmt std pedal setting75% balance120Hz freqAnywhere between 100A and 150A on each attemptLet me start by saying this machine has always made funny noises, like a leaf caught in a fan. I'm in Australia and the distributor here said that was normal, just the auto-line working with my 400V three phase supply.Anyway straight away on the first start the HF was going crazy, crackling away to the point of scaring me. Nothing like any of the steel I'd arced up on before. No arc initiated and there was a big pop so I got scared off. I got braver and kept at it and each time was the same.I just about had to touch the tungsten to the metal to get an arc. Once the arc was started, it stayed as long as I was within 1/32" or so, which I found very difficult to maintain.No puddle formed. The arc blasted away the base metal. It blasted away the filler on the one or two occasions I was brave enough to put it near the arc. The aftermath looked overcooked. It reminded me very much of the time I mistook a cast aluminum piece for cast steel and tried to tack weld it with 6012 rods probably on DCEP. Same popping and blasting away and drops of molten metal flying away in liquid form.I tried about 10 starts and each was exactly the same. Either nothing but loud HF cracking (poorly, not like the smooth steel initiation I get) or if I just about touched the metal I'd start an arc that blew away the base metal and left dirty contaminated looking aftermath.So I'm guessing the machine is failing to produce one of the phases of the AC waveform? Is this a common problem? Easily fixed?For those that read "brand new torch" - I thought that that might be the issue so I switched to DC and ran some steel beads and they were fine.Last edited by metaljong; 10-19-2014 at 05:59 AM.
Reply:Check your ground and change to a new bottle of argon. I know that may sound stupid, but aluminum accentuates any issues in a system.  You could have moisture in the gas or a contaminant of CO2.  It's happened to me.  Steel will look just fine.  Make sure contactor is on remote, amperage is on remote, pulse is off.  .6 preflow, 6 seconds postflow.  Use 60 Hz and 60% AC balance to start.  And post pics, they speak a thousand words.  Pics of your machine lit up with the settings.  If the HF works on steel, it should jump the same gap on AC.  Also, sometimes you have to touch the tungsten to the workpiece and lift before stepping on the pedal.  No clue why, it just happens.Last edited by Drf255; 10-19-2014 at 06:55 AM.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:I repositioned the ground a few times.The aluminium was clean and new. Unfortunately I don't know what alloy it is. Could it be unsuitable to weld? Would that have effects like I experienced?New argon is difficult since I'm a hobby welder and it's a 360 cubic foot cylinder about 2/3 empty so there's a while to go. But you might be onto something since it felt similar to when I've forgotten to turn on the gas on steel (although there was plenty - I purged a few times and it sounded and felt normal and the steel weld was fine).I did try two or three starts on 60Hz but went back to 120Hz with no luck on either.No pulse, foot pedal mode.Machine should be on defaults as far as pre and post flow.HF was jumping but the arc wasn't initiating and it wasn't clean. Like a car with fueling issues, cranking and occasionally spluttering but not firing until I almost touched the work.Tungsten was razor sharp and the few times I ran a dirty arc for 20s or so it came out clean afterwards. No discoloration and zero rounding, which also made me think there was maybe no EP phase.When I did get an arc going it sounded OK, like when I've messed with high speed pulse in DC mode but it blew a big crater in front of the arc as it went each time and never once puddled and was never once clean.I'll try the touching trick.I'll try and take some pictures.
Reply:The noise of these machines on AC is life changing when all is well. The inability of it to hold an arc suggests a problem. Ground quality is a question that comes to mind. overrunning HF is a second power source superimposed at high voltage and very high frequency. It'll find a complete circuit over high resistance, or wide air gaps. I've had the ground clamp slip off, the HF usually jumps to me instead of the work. Welding arc power is the opposite; low voltage makes it very sensitive to resistance. It'll have difficulty establishing an arc which on AC must happen at twice the frequency. Check allconnections, think of anywhere two different conductors join. They must be clean and tight. Auto line chooses taps to recognize power sources, but the cord must be configured for three phase power. Check your input power, are three conductors connected to line plus green/yellow connected to ground. What's your supply frequency? One feature I love about these machines is they are little affected by voltage drop. A 240 volt supply 200 feet long losing 30 volts still makes the machine happy! Even 236 volts on low power, then step on the peddle, go to 200 amps, voltage drops to 200, the thing is still happy.
Reply:The HF sounded like it does on steel from an inch or more away despite me starting at my normal steel length (probably in the 1/6" range).On steel it would well and truly hold a legit arc probably up to 1/2". HF from much further, with associated noise.At a guess maybe the stuttering nature of the HF was because the arc would try to ignite and as it did the HF would turn off but the arc would fail and the HF would kick in again and round and round it would go until I reached that stupid critical ~1/32" range.Machine came wired up already. I think our nominal supply is 400V or 415V at 50Hz. Plenty of power. I'm confident in the wall supply and hopefully the machine came wired up right or else I'm sure others would have had similar issues.I'll try my regular torch, a CK 150A flex loc. I got the 210 specifically for aluminum and big steel since I thought it might be pushing the flex loc a bit.Is it even possible that my first thought is right? Can it fail to produce one phase while still producing the other? Or is that an impossibility?Of course, it could just be a noob mistake. Hopefully that's the case and with everyone's help I'll work it out and fix it.I might reset the machine again too, just in case.
Reply:Does it stick weld?
Reply:Is it still under warranty? 3 Years so it should be.    I'd be taking to a service center in a hurry.   Call Miller tech  support also.   I'm sure Shovelon will comment when he sees this thread. He has tens of thousands of hours running Dynasty machinesLast edited by soutthpaw; 10-19-2014 at 09:02 AM.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:My 280 came with no plug, just the cord stripped. It has 4 conductors. You cap the red for single phase. I'm thinking you now need Cruiser on Miller forum, or one of the geniuses here who stuff the magic smoke back in.
Reply:Originally Posted by rlitmanDoes it stick weld?
Reply:Duly noted. I'm not yet aware of the welding forum politics but I'll refrain from mentioning his name again.I've got two other torches to try. I'll give them a shot and follow up the warranty path if they're both the same as today's torch.
Reply:One thought I have is that you might have anodized aluminum there. If you got it from a rack in a hardware store or the like it likely is anodized which will have to be removed before welding.  As for the noise that may just be you not being used to it. They are rather loud in AC tig mode.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749I'm thinking the same as DJ.See if it's still under warranty. I have no idea if their same warranty applies to things purchased and sold overseas tho, but I would certainly look into it.As far as Cruizer, yeah he may be able to help you. He is pretty sharp, once you get past the king sized ego and self worshipping bluster Good luck with it.
Reply:15 cubic feet per minute ? What's the argon flow? Try less argon and see if things improve.
Reply:Originally Posted by irish fixitOne thought I have is that you might have anodized aluminum there. If you got it from a rack in a hardware store or the like it likely is anodized which will have to be removed before welding.
Reply:I normally have it on 7Lpm, which is just under 15cfh IIRC, with a #6 cup for steel. On this new torch I left it the same initially then gave it a bit more when I was having problems. The new torch had a #8 cup.I weld outside so I use a bit more than if I were in a workshop to compensate. It wasn't windy so that wasn't the reason.Last edited by metaljong; 10-19-2014 at 10:49 AM.
Reply:Ah whoops. I guess I was conflating cfh with cfm.
Reply:I use 13 cfh minimum but usually run around 18-20 cfh of pure argon on aluminum. Millers are usually known for their amazing ability to start and maintain an arc on aluminum. Years ago early eighties, for a couple years they were lightly anodizing new aluminum pipe, at least our local distributors were. It had old tuna tower makers going out of their minds. I always cleaned my aluminum regardless, so I had not really noticed. But my friend and owner of Tri-weld came over and demonstrated the Miller that could actually start, clean and maintain a perfect arc, right through the anodizing. I believe it was the early Syncrowave machines. They even showed how it could penetrate regular standard anodized material. So if your gas is right, you don't have carbon on your tungsten, you have a Teflon seal under your cup, the machine settings are correct, you should be welding lovely.                      Sincerely,                            William McCormick
Reply:It's likely that you've gotten rid of all the anodized. However it can be rather thick on some pieces. Also if not done properly you can imbed it back into the piece. Aluminum can be tricky especially when starting out like this and you don't have a clue why it's doing what it's doing.   I may of missed it but how thick is the piece you're trying to weld. It takes a LOT more amperage to weld larger aluminum than it does steel. You have to go in real hot and then back off as the piece heats up.   As for arc starts I had some problems similar when I had my 200. Usually because the tungsten had gotten dirty or I didn't have enough amperage or the piece was to dirty. Still makes me wonder about the anodizing.  Another thought. You say you ground where you was trying to weld but did you grind where you grounded. Anodizing is a insulator and doesn't conduct electricity.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749I'm thinking the same as DJ.See if it's still under warranty. I have no idea if their same warranty applies to things purchased and sold overseas tho, but I would certainly look into it.As far as Cruizer, yeah he may be able to help you. He is pretty sharp, once you get past the king sized ego and self worshipping bluster Good luck with it.
Reply:Here are some pictures from today:Balance:Frequency:Amps:Ground w/ grind:
Reply:And the results:From above:From the side:There are a few from yesterday as well. Same symptoms as yesterday. I ran the two bottom left today, got an arc going and chickened out on both before they blew right through. The pictures don't really show, but it was like blowing foam with air. I was 3/4 the way through the base metal on today's "welds".I used the CK 150A flex-loc, a known torch to me (different to yesterday's new torch)3/32" 2% lanthanated8Lpm = ~17cfh#6 cupshort stickout
Reply:Im saying that's a gas problem.If it's not, then the machine isn't switching to AC.To add...If not the above mentioned, do a factory reset.Try again.Miller Dynasty 200DXMiller Spectrum 250DMiller Millermatic 200Bunch of old blue dinosaurs....
Reply:Pictures of the tungsten before and after??Miller Dynasty 200DXMiller Spectrum 250DMiller Millermatic 200Bunch of old blue dinosaurs....
Reply:You may be right. I'll try torch number three.More information - I cut and shortened the gas hose on the brand new and my existing flex loc and used wire tie (I'll explain later with pictures) to secure it. So there was definitely scope to screw that up and could cause gas flow issues. Pictures to follow.
Reply:Pictures of the torches:From top to bottom, CK TL210, CK FL150, generic ChineseFor some reason we use a male 1/4 x 3/8 connection on the Australian Dynasty gas lines, so you can see my gas connections. To do the wire things I've used my Clamp-it tool:http://www.practool.com/clamp-it-tool1.htmlIt's never failed me before. FWIW it was a struggle to even get the gas line over the fitting tail so I reckon it would work without any clamp.Tungstens all stayed shiny and sharp pointed.Same symptoms with torch number 3, which I've never used before.Originally Posted by metaljongTungstens all stayed shiny and sharp pointed.
Reply:Originally Posted by jontheturboguyBingo.  Problem right there.  At 60% on my machine, the tungsten will ball at the tip.Perform a factory reset on the machine.If it still does it, my guess is some sort of board inside isn't running the AC, high frequency constantly, or both.
Reply:Hmm. Just remembered something. Way back when I was first trying to weld razor blades with my 200 I tried switching the leads to get reverse polarity at the torch instead of straight. It acted very similar to this. Bad starts and the arc wasn't stable at all.   Anyway just one more idea thrown into the fray. It does act similar to that though. I'm sure you've got the torch hooked to the proper outlets on the machine.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Out of interest - arc timer and starts:001 227002 379I did a factory reset. Went to run a bead on steel with CK TL210 - a gas issue! Weird, since I ran it fine on steel with same gas flow and same head setup yesterday. So I disassembled the head and put it back together, purging at each step to make sure it was flowing properly. Then I ran another autogenous bead on steel and it was fine.Tried ally and it was the same as before.Went to the advanced menu, set the tungsten type to GEN and set up the start amps to 200A. I thought this might be a joke  so I was careful but it was similar to before except - HF stopped kicking in until I was already really close.I set it back to 094 again and ran another "bead". One thing of interest was that I need to get so close, like 1/32" to start an arc. To maintain an arc, I need to go below the surface of the base metal. A big valley develops, like blowing foam with air like I mentioned before, and I need to keep the tungsten in that valley to maintain the arc length and end up about 1/16" below the surface. Crazy. Blowing a big mound of dirty contaminated ally in front of the arc.Given no balling, given the dirty "foamy" "weld", signs still point to no EP phase to me.Any other settings to try?Oh yeah, I don't think it's possible to hook up the leads reversed is it? Ground on the left, torch on the right paired with the gas.
Reply:Yes, ground on left. I don't think there is anything else to try. I would pack it up for warranty diagnostics. You have no error codes so that is strange too. If the input power was bad the display will throw up an error code for that. Once I took delivery of a 350DX that would only lift start. Turned out to be a Canadian PC board of some type, and when changed was fine. Could be something of that nature.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if we had some special Australian or CE-model boards.One more picture for your amusement:You can see on the dirty, rusty scrap steel the leftmost autogenous bead I ran yesterday to check DC. Then today, the gas flow issue start. Disassembled, put back together purging each step, ran the middle bead autogenous. 100A DC on ~1/8" material with rust and galv and crappy ground connection - no problems.Then straight after, the 1" long bead in the middle of the ally bar. The valley gets progressively deeper until it's at least 1/8" deep (I was scared of blasting through and dripping on the pedal/my boot) and there's a mound of blown ally at the leading edge of the valley.All those other crappy shorter ally "welds" are like stirring foam, that's why I never tried to run any length. I was hoping for a shiny puddle, same as DC steel/stainless but as soon as I initiate the ultra-short arc, it just blows away underneath.
Reply:Are you sure you are getting Argon flow through the torch?  The pictures look more like no gas flow...GlenMiller Dynasty 200DX - Millermatic 350P - Hypertherm Powermax 45Want to sell!! - Hobart Handler 150
Reply:Yeah, I can hear the initial surge of preflow for sure, and when I purge I was holding it up to my hand (after HF turned off) and it would pre/post flow fine.Except the one time as you can see on the steel but I quickly fixed it, ran a successful weld and then straight over to A/C and got bad results again.Even if gas flow was bad, I'd expect it to initiate the arc much, much better than it is. On steel I often start off with long arc length (e.g. 1.5 times what I want), light up and then hone in on the correct length. No problem, and I can run it along no problem and if I go out of position and screw up it tolerates long length while I panic-fix it. On this ally, if I am in the 1/32" range it works. Lengthen to 1/8, no way in the world, it goes straight out. I would expect gas problems would result in similar outcome, but still hold an arc, no? Even the HF is screwy.
Reply:It gas bud.  Unless the Aluminum is coated, there's no way you're getting black unless there's insufficient coverage.  Do the sundownIII test.  Clean aluminum and make a swirl on aluminum.  No filler, no nothing, just a swirl.  If you get a silver center with white frosting, you're good.  Any black, bad gas or coverage.  I'll try to find my old links for u.  Went through the same thing.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Look at the two threads I posted in this thread.  See if it looks familiar.  Sorry for the link chase.  Couldn't copy both.  http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...2-melting-awayTA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:The black was the weird HF scaring the crap out of me. It never even arced on most of those. As I said I needed the ~1/32" arc length to get a proper arc started.I need to get one of those torch ball gauges. I use a ball on the gas bottle and it indicates 7Lpm or 8Lpm, so 14-17cfh.I still didn't like how the few times I did run an arc it gouges.I'm going to try to get someone else to have a shot, someone who knows more about welding than me.Your links do seem similar though, and make for good reading. Thanks.
Reply:HF won't melt metal. you are getting some low voltage / high amperage arcing. I'd look for an air leak in your system, or dirty screen in your gas lens causing uneven gas coverage. HF isn't very noisy either.
Reply:I've never looked at the gauges after starting the arc before, because I'm normally busy welding. But I did when this failure process started and it was reading high 30Vs, pushing 40V. This while postflow started. Not sure if that's normal.I've just ordered one of those torch attachment ball flow gauges to get a definitive reading of the flow out of the torch.
Reply:Are you sure that is not magnesium you are trying to weld?Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Try another piece of aluminum, I have seen this before when someone tryed to weld 7000 series aluminum. It will drive you nuts thinking there is something wrong with your welder.www.georgesplasmacuttershop.comPlasma Cutter and Welder Sales and Repairs--Ebay storeTec.Mo. Dealer Consumables for the PT and IPT torch's
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonAre you sure that is not magnesium you are trying to weld?
Reply:Looks like it's not switching to AC.  Those look the starts I had with the Longevity 200dx demo.  Terry ran that machine to with same issue.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Well, the plot thickens considerably. At a suggestion from millerwelds forum, I went to run stick welds on AC to see what happens.Wanted to run DC bead first - no strike! At all. I even tried to strike on the ground clamp - nothing.Switched to AC - nothing.Rods were Kobe RB-26 at 2.6mm (bit bigger than 3/32") at 80A.I got the multimeter - nothing. Cables are good, the stinger cable had never been used (I tested it for continuity - fine).I also got odd behavior - when I first switched it on the SSC foot pedal was still plugged in. Machine was set to tig AC, so I set it to DC to run the first bead, then set PROCESS to stick, then set OUTPUT to ON. After failing to strike a DC arc, I wanted to try AC but I couldn't switch the POLARITY setting. I had to first change OUTPUT to RMT STD and then could change to AC, then POLARITY back to ON. This happened each time. If I tried to switch POLARITY while in ON mode, I would just get HELP12 (unsupported operation, I think?).At some stage I turned off the machine thinking the pedal was affecting things and took the pedal off and tried again but that didn't help and it behaved the same.Similar when I wanted to get into the advanced menu and see if there was anything unusual set up there - I couldn't access the advanced menu until I switched PROCESS to TIG HF and then could get into advanced, but couldn't get in at all when in stick mode.Surely this menu behavior is completely screwed up? I reckon I should be able to switch stick polarity without having to switch other unrelated modes.The next test was AC TIG on steel:3/32" 2% lanthanatedAutogenous8Lpm argon (at ball gauge on bottle)Probably 1/8" sheetRan 'em one straight after another, no cooling or anything (I figured that was irrelevant to the test)From top to bottom - forgot to check the amperage first so the first was an outlier, a bit hot:(i) 99% balance, 150A(ii) 90% balance, 120A(iii) 80% balance, 120A(iv) 70% balance, 120A(v) 60% balance, 120AThe first was almost the same as high speed pulse DC, same sound, same starting characteristics. Progressively through to the 60%, starts got harder until the last start was similar to the aluminum that prompted this thread - erratic HF and almost having to touch the steel.The slight orange is because it was thin-coat galvanized and I just gave it a quick flap disc so there was some zinc contamination. I'm not sure if the progressively worse undercut was from the AC balance changing or from the built-up heat or from the no filler.Each of the four bottom welds was about 2" long. The lump below the bottom weld was from previous test weld sanded down.I'm guessing I shouldn't be able to TIG steel in AC mode with 60% balance?Apologies for the cross post, for those who read both forums.
Reply:From memory on the last weld it went out a couple of times because arc length was critical like the aluminum problem and I got too long - the wobbly bits at 1/3 and 7/8 of the way. HF kicked in and I quickly shortened the gap and restarted on the fly.
Reply:Actually I'm pretty sure that was exactly the way my 200 acted when in stick mode. It was DC only. I had to put it in output on each time I changed to stick mode as well. I never tried to reach the advanced menu in stick mode.  As for running AC TIG on steel it tends to be messy. Sounds like yours acted just about the same as mine did. Not a very good arc and fairly dirty as far as welding goes.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Just send it to be repaired already!Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:I betcha you don't have aluminum there.  Weld on a pop can and see what you get.
Reply:I've got some 6061 just need the time to try on it. Originally Posted by soutthpawJust send it to be repaired already!
Reply:Call miller.  See if they can walk you through any over the phone diagnostics.Miller Dynasty 200DXMiller Spectrum 250DMiller Millermatic 200Bunch of old blue dinosaurs....
Reply:Yeah, I might have to. At the moment I'm tracing connections to make sure they're tight based on advice from a nameless person on millerwelds.http://i61.tinypic.com/5dqq80.jpgDidn't have time this morning, but an interesting point was some of the contact plates on the switch assembly are loose. The nuts themselves are super tight but the whole plate is loose. Over half are loose and it feels like the nuts are factory tight so I'm guessing it's by-design that the plates are like that.I'm going to wire trace and check all mechanical connections this evening and make sure they're good.No obvious blown or burnt components with a 5min glance check.