welding the inside of stake pockets on an aluminum trailer

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Hi all,to make it short: I have been charged with welding the inside of the stake pockets on an aluminum trailer.  The owner will not be using them for stakes but as tie downs and wants them beefed up.  Problem is that I can't see how to go about it.  If it were iron, a welding rode could easily get in there.  However a spoolgun would have to be held at an extreme angle to do a vertical up weld.  Can it be done?  Also I thought of tigging it but it is very tight.Any thoughts on this?  I tried to post earlier this morning but notice when I went to check it, my posting was no there so I did it again.  Sorry if it appears twice.Attached is a shot of the project.Thanks,Tony
Reply:make the stake out of 3 individual pieces and weld the long piece last.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:Easy peasy bud. That's not that tight.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:What about SMAW down hill? Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I have seen guys trim a cup down in order to fit in a tight spot. Haven't done it myself.GravelThe difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.
Reply:They make a flexible neck for the Miller 30A spoolgun. I would just weld up from the bottom as far as you can and the little bit you can get from the top. Are you adding these from new or just redoing existing ones . I don't really see what is to be gained by this compared to a good weld on the outside .
Reply:How about a 30-degree bevel, and gap for a full pen weld? From the outside.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPHow about a 30-degree bevel, and gap for a full pen weld? From the outside.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DI've never seen one steel or aluminum welded on the inside.
Reply:Try taking a Spare nozzle for your spool gun and flatten it down with a hammer or vice. But don't flatten it too much that you loose gas flow.
Reply:Well the customer wants the customer gets. Sad thing is if you don't do it he will find someone who will Even though welding on one side is sufficient.What tungsten are you working with. Do a search for "bending tungsten 101" by zapster. If you are using a tungsten and a machine that will allow you to keep a point, you can get in there nicely with that trick. Also with Gravels cutting the cup down like it would work awesome. Can you flip the trailer on its side? if so you can weld it from both sides with the spool gun. What I have done  many times is tighten the drive roll tension so high that it curls the wire,  then flop the spool over to the side, suddenly Im welding around a corner, you can also bend a contact tip a little to get more around a corner. Gotta do what it takes to get the job done sometimes.Nothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.
Reply:puty72 have you ever used this type of nozzle before? Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Another thought, I see on highway trailers they will run a flat bar along the outside perimeter of the trailer joining the stake pockets to help beef it up, more area to weld to, tie to and you've got a built in rub rail.few examples shown herehttps://www.google.ca/search?q=alumi...w=1301&bih=511Nothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.
Reply:Wow!!  I'm impressed with the various options to try.  The bent tungsten one would do it because if you look at the picture of me holding the tig torch in the pocket, you'll see that its already touching one side and it is not pointing in the center of the joint but favors the side wall without good contact to tje to frame rail.  I usually use a gas lens on my torch but it was too fat and gave me less maneuvering room so I switched to a regular cup, it helped.Because I was running out of time (have to turn it in tomorrow) it took a leap of faith and took a two step approach.First I ran an uphill bead as far as I could reach before I had the spoolgun pointing straight up and then ran a downhill from the top.  It looked real ****ty but my goal was to deposit metal that fused on both sides.  Second step is to go over it and finish fusing and smoothing it out with the tig.  I did discover that if I cranked it up the puddle widened and fused to the side that I could not get at, barely.  If I bend the tungsten, it might reach that side well enough to make decent fusion.  I wish I had been able to hear these ideas before starting, but Oh well......I like the small nozzle approach but I am still forced to push a puddle uphill at an extreme angle after the first inch or so, but it would help, I agree.I am going back outside now to do the tig thing.  I have bent tungsten by accident when they were red hot.  Is this this idea.  How can I find out the technique?Thanks fellas for sharing your ideas, experiences.  That's what I love most about this forum.TonyPS: the rail idea I think was the solution all along.  I've seen that on many trailers and it never occurred to me to suggest that approach.,  Duh...............Last edited by therrera; 12-17-2014 at 09:07 PM.Reason: to add more comment
Reply:I would just weld the top corners of the inside, leave the center.usually you leave inside clean though so that the stakes can fit in,even then this is essentially useless, you used fairly thin sharp corner aluminum,its more likely to crack in that outside corner than anywhere else. a single weld on the outside can hold immense force, the material itself will break due to heat input so welding it twice isn't going to make it stronger by any means.although people think customers are always right and ect so on, your the professional on what you do, work to make sure you make things happen correctly and easily for yourself otherwise things will get out of hand,  pretty hard to have a customer, tell you want to do you follow orders and do something that doesn't work and they are still mad about it not working.don't let other people set you up for failure,  I am not saying this is the case here really because it isn't a big deal but more a waste of your time. set your limits for customers otherwise they will yank your chain, and it will be your fault.http://www.forgingtechnology.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPMe neither! And I have an aluminum flatbed on my truck. The stake pockets are only welded on the outside.
Reply:You can easily tig weld that with that current setup.
Reply:PM Zapster about the tungsten bendingTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:I consider myself decent at  tig welding and have been in many out of position situations (like upside down, able to see out of one eye and barely able to move my arms) but this one has me stumped.  Not because it is hard to get at but because I cannot move the torch enough to hit the frame side adequately to make a nice, clean stringer.  I am having to resort to washing the puddle to the side.I think I'm going to just stop and tell the client that it is not working to try and weld the inside.  I 'm going to suggest an outside rail.  I agree now that it has been brought up that I am putting too much heat into the metal trying to accomplish the request.  By the way, I did suggest to him that it would not make it stronger but he said that he would "feel" better if it were welded on both sides.  I did one this way so far and I would send pictures but I'd be embarrassed.Thanks for all the suggestion. You guys are great!!Tony
Reply:My 1st thought was to do a heavy bevel on the outside and do a full pen joint. You should get more "bite" than you would with the inside fillet.Samm did a great post a while back where he showed how to bevel something like this, where he did a heavy bevel in the middle, but left enough on the ends to easily index the piece.Rub rail is also a good idea..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:The rail sounds good. Would cutting those off and cutting retangluar the same size be a option ?  Then you could weld top and bottom.
Reply:Long cup or shorter cup
Reply:once that alum gets hot it will be cake try it. Its not hard at all with a bit of practice. what machine you using. Id run that baby at 350 amps 3/32 filler and a size 4 cup with tungsten stick out like 1mm and just walk the edges with the cupvertical up alum is hard at first but once you get the hang of it its easier that flat
Reply:I wouldn't bother welding the inside, just use an appropriate sized filler on the outside, the existing fillet on there looks smaller than the material thickness.If you must weld the inside, just get a bigger cup so you can slide the cup upward as you weld and it'll clear the weld that's just been deposited. Blast the filler in from above with the torch pointing upward, not downward like you have shown.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Originally Posted by therreraUpdate:::I spoke to my client and ran by him going the rail route rather than welding the inside.  Without hesitation he said "Whatever you think best, I trust you 100%".  Tomorrow (later this morning), I will head out to the supply yard and pick up some 1/4" flat bar, bend them and weld them on to the pockets and to the trailer frame rails.  This should beef up the pockets especially if weld a plate between the pockets to act as another bracket to hold the strap firm between pockets.  Attached is a picture of the trailer in question.  My welding machine by the way is an old Hobart TR250-HF.  I use it for both stick and tig.Thanks,Tony
Reply:If you weld flat bar from pocket to pocket it looks like the tilt function of the trailer will be compromised.  Still think that the weldable tie downs that I provided you a link to would be a far better solution.Everlast PowerPro 256, Everlast W300 Cooler, Everlast Cart 250Millermatic 211, Spoolgun 100, Miller HD CartJackson W60 Truesight Digital Auto Darkening, Victor 315 Torch sitting on a Harper 830-86 cart
Reply:Looks like a nice trailer! I've been wanting a tilt bed for a long time now.12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:You know, I've never run an aluminum flatbed.  Never had to give securement much thought with an eye towards tiedown failure.I'm not sure I'd attach a chain to an aluminum pocket or rub rail.  On a steel trailer it's no problem.  I attach to stake pockets all the time, and will attach a strap to the rub rail, provided it's also reinforced with pipe between the stake pockets.  My big flatbed has pipe reinforcements, my little bumper pull flatbed doesn't.  You can see what I'm talking about here   http://www.greatdanetrailers.com/platform  Page through the brochures for the steel, and aluminum, flatbeds....you'll see how they treat the rub rails/stake pockets.Most loads on aluminum trailers seem to be tied to the side rail on the underside, but I've never paid too much attention to it.I personally wouldn't trust an aluminum stake pocket for attaching a binder chain, but might trust it for a strap which doesn't take nearly the load as a chain."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:But, like I say, I've never pulled an aluminum flatbed"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I'd probably opt for a bolt on tie down with a heavy backing plate on that setup.
Reply:Well gentlemen (and lurking ladies),I finished reinforcing the pockets today.  Attached are a few shots I took just as he was pulling it out of my place.  This is the first spoolgun effort I've undertaken and I see what was meant by everything is exaggerated when welding aluminum mig.  The client was happy with the project results.  I also built and mounted a battery tray and a top rail over the tongue for extra mounting space when needed.Thanks for all the replies, ideas and comments.I am in your debt.Tony
Reply:That's awesome, I'm glad I could help! Im stuck welding garbage aluminum doing repairs when I weld it now. I would love to get some projects like you had here. Much more satisfying.Nothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.
Reply:Hi Doug247,thanks for the suggestion.  It worked out great.  The tie down suggestion from Grandslam99 was also a good one and the only reason for not going that route was the time it would take to mail order these and then install them.  My client had to get on the road tomorrow morning.Again thanks,Tony