Lincoln Ranger 8 won't run. High idle problem

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So I tried to fire up my Ranger 8 today. It woud not run save for pouring gas down the carb. So I figure the carb is screwed up. I get a kit(50$ Ouch). Rebuild it. Still won't run. If it sits for a few mins it tries to kick off on it's own. Fuel Pump is working. Well there is a sol/plunger deal on the carb that apparently is not getting any power regardless of where i have the high idle/auto switch. I put power to the sol on the carb...Viola. It runs beautiful , but wide open(high like if welding). Obvioulsy this is the problem.Now, my questions. If there is no power to the sol shouldn't it atleast idle or does it require some power and the switch is somesort of resistor deal ??I pulled the side cover off. As far as I can tell with the Machine switch on there is no power going to the high idle switch. The 3 wires coming off it disappear into the harness. I know this thing gets triggered by demand so where do I start looking ? What could be wrong ? Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:Plot thickens. I was outside testing some stuff with the wiring diagram from Lincoln. It's not the high idle that is affecting it. It's the fuel shutoff sol. Not getting power. Also if I put power to it it will run but the welder is not putting out any juice. Circut board ?? How much does a new one cost ? Still available ?Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:Well I just went through the whole parts book on Lincolns site. Can't find the circut board...Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:You haven't mentioned a code# or which engine the unit has.  Could be a failed oil pressure switch that provides power to the fuel shut-off solenoid when oil pressure is present.No weld output would be something else (possibly the control board).MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:I check the OPS. It's working. Code:10375It has a Commander 18hp Kohler.Thanks.I am leaning towards circut board. The welder has no output as well as no power to the fuel shut off sol.Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:I figured it has the Kohler.The fuel shut-off solenoid is powered thru the OPS which is powered by the RUN switch and is totally unrelated to the PCB1 control board so you're going to have to determine why the OPS isn't getting battery + voltage or why it isn't getting to the fuel shut-off solenoid from the OPS.  I'd start by checking all related harness connections and the two isolation diodes in the circuits that prevent backfeed into either solenoid activaton source (start signal and OPS).  Wouldn't surprise me if you found both diodes failed open.Get the fuel solenoid issue resolved and then we can tackle the no weld output.  Does it have auxiliary AC power output?I presume you have it but if not, you can download the unit manual here http://www.lincolnelectric.com/asset...oln3/im510.pdf so you can follow the wiring diagram on page F3.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:It has aux power out. That is how I tested the output. So if the fuelshutoff is not getting juice it's not the PCB ? I did have power on both sides of the OPS. Where would I find the isolation diodes ?This is messed up because I used the welder a few monhs ago and everything worked fine.Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:I'll do more tests tommorow. I have the print for the wiring but I am not great at reading them. To me it looked like the power for the Fuel shutoff came from the PCB. I'm looking at it again now and I was looking at the idler sol not the FSO although when I had the welder running with the FSO jumped, it only ran high idle even with the switch on auto. I tested the auto switch in both positions and the test light got dimmer.. I see what looks like diodes at the FSO. Luckily my dad was a TV repairman so I used to read these but that was 30 yrs ago...I'll recheck that tommorow and go from there but with the FSO jumped and the welder running at high idle the aux power was not puttin out.Last edited by acesneights1; 02-02-2011 at 11:30 PM.Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:I suspect you'll either find the diodes tucked away inside a harness sheath or mounted to an insulated holder.  Start at the solenoid and work backward in the harness to find them.  They'll be connected to red wires coming from terminals #3 & #4 of the engine terminal block.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:ok. One more question tonight, the #s on the wires like 211  or 224c what does that mean ? Anything special or just the names for the wires ?Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:I see now where you stated you have the unit wiring diagram and I suspect you'll either find the diodes tucked away inside a harness sheath or mounted to an insulated holder.  Start at the solenoid and work backward in the harness to find them.  They'll be connected to red wires coming from terminals #3 & #4 of the engine terminal block.If you have full auxiliary AC voltage output then PCB1 is OK and I'd look at the Current Range selector and Polarity selector switches for tarnished/damaged contacts/wipers.  If the switches check out OK then you'll have to take voltage readings at the weld stator output leads and work outward from there.Did you check weld output OCV (open circuit voltage) at the weld output studs in all polarity, range and CV settings?MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:I ran a quick test this am. I started the machine with the FSO jumped. It has no aux power and no Weld output . It's like the machine commited suicide..jeez I'm not that hard on it...Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:Is it just me or is there something funky about the starter solenoid coil wiring diagram on the Kohler??  specifically the ground side??does this machine flash from the battery or could it need flashing?? fred-- fredLincoln 180C MIG
Reply:It's just an unusual circuit based on current flow thru the relay coil to pull in the contacts.  Due to the current draw from the starter the relay remains pulled in after the contacts close to supply voltage to the starter.  Same basic principle as the old R-57 idler vacuum needle valve coil.  I call it a "shunt" circuit but I don't know if that's the proper technical term for it.The rotor gets initial flashing voltage from the battery thru PCB1 control board.  However, this battery voltage comes from the RUN switch thru the OPS and then on to the hour meter and PCB1.  So. . .acesneights1, I would check for a bad RUN switch by checking for voltage on wire #210 with the switch in the RUN position.  If the unit cranks with the starter button then the Ammeter is OK and should be feeding battery + to the RUN switch on wire #208A and starter switch on #208B.  A bad RUN switch that isn't connecting #208A to #210 would explain everything.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:OK Update. I cut the harness open just inside the shroud of the motor. As suspect there are two diodes, both bad. I will replace them tommorow. That will explain the no run but not the no output. I checked for power to 214 at the PCB and that had power. supposedly that is the power for the board ??Also I didn't have a meter handy only a test light but there was juice to both brushes. I cleaned the sliprings. Still no output. The engine not running as you stated earlier seems to be a separate issue. No surprises here, this kind of stuff ALWAYS happens to me. It's never simple. could this thing have had some sort of spike that wiped all this stuff ? Odd tha both diodes are not functional but I tested them both and both had no power. I jumped the OPS and had power right up to the diode but not after. Same with the cranking circut. Power up to the diode but not past it.So where do I go from here with figuring out why no output ? I can't believe this. The last time I used it it was working fine.Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:The run switch is working properly. Tested .I didn't get any power on 221 or 5h of the run switch. 208b and 210 are fine.Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:Don't you have the wiring schematic for the unit?  221 and 5H are grounds.  5H comes from the chassis ground stud and 221 grounds the ignition module to shut the engine off.With RUN switch in RUN position:1) Follow 210 down to the OPS and confirm 12v+ thereStart engine (jumper fuel shutoff solenoid as needed) and:2) Check for 12v+ on 224A at the hour meter3) Check for 12v+ on 224B at IDLER switch4) Check for 12v+ on 224 at PCB1 plug J1 pin 95) Check for 12v between 224 and 5E at PCB1 plug J1 pins 2 and 9If any of the above steps fail to show 12v+, correct as needed (let me know if you need help identifying the cause).As for the fuel shutoff solenoid, with engine running:1) Check for 12v+ on 224C at both sides of engine harness terminal block pin 4If 12v+ is present on both sides of engine harness terminal block pin 4 but still no 12v+ at the fuel shutoff solenoid, locate the isolation diodes and check for one or both being failed open (no continuity).Just thought of something - is there a battery in the unit or are you starting it off a charger or jumper cables?Last edited by duaneb55; 02-03-2011 at 11:27 PM.Reason: added battery questionMM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55Don't you have the wiring schematic for the unit?  221 and 5H are grounds.  5H comes from the chassis ground stud and 221 grounds the ignition module to shut the engine off.With RUN switch in RUN position:1) Follow 210 down to the OPS and confirm 12v+ thereStart engine (jumper fuel shutoff solenoid as needed) and:2) Check for 12v+ on 224A at the hour meter3) Check for 12v+ on 224B at IDLER switch4) Check for 12v+ on 224 at PCB1 plug J1 pin 95) Check for 12v between 224 and 5E at PCB1 plug J1 pins 2 and 9If any of the above steps fail to show 12v+, correct as needed (let me know if you need help identifying the cause).As for the fuel shutoff solenoid, with engine running:1) Check for 12v+ on 224C at both sides of engine harness terminal block pin 4If 12v+ is present on both sides of engine harness terminal block pin 4 but still no 12v+ at the fuel shutoff solenoid, locate the isolation diodes and check for one or both being failed open (no continuity).Just thought of something - is there a battery in the unit or are you starting it off a charger or jumper cables?
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Reply:So 5e is a ground correct ?Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:Correct.  All "5" circuits are grounds for the battery system and neutral for the Auxiliary AC.  They are also common to the Auxiliary AC "GND" grounds.The bad diodes explains why the fuel shutoff solenoid isn't energizing.Remember, 5E at PCB1 plug J1 pin 2 is a 12v ground that comes from the hour meter which is grounded by 5D at the blower baffle ground screw.  Just check for 12v between PCB1 plug J1 pins 2 (5E) and 9 (224).  If nothing then check between the blower housing ground screw and plug J1 pin 9 (224).If the above checks out then check for battery voltage at PCB1 plug J1 pin 5 (12v- wire 219) and pin 11 (12v+ wire 200B) with the unit running.  If no 12v voltage between J1 pins 5 and 11 then it's likely the flashing diode on the board is bad.  May be other problems on the board as well.  I don't have a board schematic to be able to help you there but Lincoln would be able to e-mail you one.If you read 12v at PCB1 plug J1 pins 5 and 11, check for AC voltage at field rectirier bridge AC terminals (wires 7 and 9), also with the unit running.I asked about the battery as some engine charge outputs cut off with no battery attached and as such the unit would not have any 12vdc to kick things off in the generator rotor field.In light of the fact the problem started when you had to jumb the unit with a battery charger it is possible that's what caused the failed diodes and may have damaged PCB1 control board.  Did you have the charger initially hooked up with the polarity reversed?  Can you see any fried components on PCB1?MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:It's possible I hooked the batt charger up backwards last time I tried to start it. IIRC it did not start and I gave up thinking it was cold or the gas had gone bad. The 4 square white blocks(resisitors ???) Look burned but from what I have read in other threads here that is normal to see as the coating gets discolored. I had Lincoln on the phone this am. He said to check for 45 volts facross the slip rings with machine running and see if there is ANY output volts. I did check between 224 and 5e on PCB1 and had 12vs. I will check the other terminals you mentioned when I get home. I'm getting real nervous with this welder down...we got 2-3 ft of snow coming Thurs and that is when plows break...I had a hard time getting diodes for the Fuel shot off. Radio Shack has nothing but kids who know nothing working there but the closest diode I could find was 1000v  1.5amp. The originals were 800v  1.5amp.  I got a lesson in those too as I did not understand why such high voltage diodes were needed on a 12v circut but one of the IT techs where I work said something about the Shutoff sol sending a back spike or something. Didn't quite understand that.Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:BTW thank you very much for the help you are giving me. I grew up in my Fathers TV shop but that was 30 yrs ago. It's like learning all over again.My Dad passed this March. Boy could I have used his help.Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:The higher voltage diodes will work just fine.The rule we use for replacing dead parts when we can't get the same part is, always use a higher rated part. more volts and amps. I used to carry only those 1500 volt 1.5 amps diodes in my tool box. Used them to replace almost any small diode I needed to.This does not apply to fuses. you must always you the right one. fire hazard.A coil in a 12 volt DC circuit can generate a 1000 volt spike with ease when you turn it offA lot of circuits will add a reverse polarity diode across the coil to short out the spike. keeping it out of the rest of the circuits and causing damage.
Reply:Originally Posted by ccawgcThe higher voltage diodes will work just fine.The rule we use for replacing dead parts when we can't get the same part is, always use a higher rated part. more volts and amps. I used to carry only those 1500 volt 1.5 amps diodes in my tool box. Used them to replace almost any small diode I needed to.This does not apply to fuses. you must always you the right one. fire hazard.A coil in a 12 volt DC circuit can generate a 1000 volt spike with ease when you turn it offA lot of circuits will add a reverse polarity diode across the coil to short out the spike. keeping it out of the rest of the circuits and causing damage.Originally Posted by acesneights1So the coil acts like some sort of capacitor ??
Reply:Inductor, actually.  an inductor wants to keep the current constant, if you shut off The flow of current the voltage across the coil rises to try to maintain the same current. you need a reverse polarity diode across the coil or a resistor drawing about the same current as the coil, though that will slow down the opening of the relay. The diode is more efficient as well as the relay acting fasterLast edited by fredf; 02-05-2011 at 11:29 AM.-- fredLincoln 180C MIG
Reply:Well...she's fixed. Nothing is every easy for me, it's always gotta be some weird thing...Before I tell you guys what was wrong with it I'm going to post a simple pic and see if you guys can figure it out. Then I'll go into detail of my mistakes in diagnosis....See if you can tell what is wrong with the picture...Look carefully... Attached ImagesLincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:battery has a bit of a reverse charge on it does it???-- fredLincoln 180C MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by fredfbattery has a bit of a reverse charge on it does it???
Reply:OK now onto the questions ?I did not think it was possible for a battery to reverse charge and work fine ??Also how come the starter turned the correct way and the motor ran ??Was that why the diodes were not allowing power past them ? I was going to try and find the old diode and test it again.Anyway heres a pic of where the diodes for the FSO are. You have to remove the engine cover. BTW these parts are Kohler, not Lincoln. Attached ImagesLincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:Unfortunatley I didn't think to take the pic before I shrink wrapped them but they are under the balck shrink wrap by where the harness crosses the spark plug wire.Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:Yes, I would expect them to be Kohler parts as they are required for proper engine operation rather than welder/generator.Starters don't care about polarity.  Rotation is determined by internal construction.Glad to hear you got it all squared away. MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:I can't believe I didn't fry anything.Lincoln Ranger 8Lincoln 140c MigLincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)Miller 200Diesel/Heavy Equipment MechanicLead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Reply:Originally Posted by acesneights1I can't believe I didn't fry anything.
Reply:Originally Posted by NVWI can't either You're just lucky I guessI followed your link and joined