New guy tig problem

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Hey all. Ive been mig welding for a few years now, decided to pick up a tig and start messing with it. I taught myself how to mig and planned to do the same with tig. I got a miller syncrowave 210. Problem im having is that the base material doesnt seem to puddle and when it eventually does, the filler rod wont add to the puddle. If i dip my filler on the edge of the puddle and try to move the puddle it doesnt move. Its like the filler melts into the existing puddle but i cant get it to move and form a bead. Ive tried different amperage, different cfh, using 3/32 tungsten that came in the torch, i beleive ceriated, and 1/16 filler on mild steel. The filler will also just ball up and doesnt seem to want to penetrate into the base material. Any help is appreciated. Heres a few pics of a 4 link i just welded in my buddys 65 c10 using my 211 mig
Reply:Not to be mean or nasty, your mig welds need a fair amount of work. All that I see look cold and in many cases the toes didn't wet in well. Also you need to stop trying to make mig look like tig and learn 1st how to make solid mig welds. Your oscillations are too widely spaced at a minimum. You need to tighten things up by at least a factor of 3 if not more. I also see a lot of issues with start/stops at corners and edges. All places where stresses concentrate and where mig often has issues with welds being cold at the start or craters at the end. I don't see any welds there that I'd pass if you were in the night school program.As far as tig. Often one of the biggest issues I see with students is that they tend to hold the torch too far away and then melt the filler with the arc, not the puddle. It would help if you gave all the info on what you are doing up front, Amps used, tungsten size, material thickness, filler size and so on. The more info you give us, the better we can help. Also picts tell us a lot about your welds. Not just overall picts like you posted of your project, but detailed picts of the welds themselves. I can see some detail in your mig picts, but the picts really don't show enough detail that I can call out specifics for you to help you improve.Picts 2 and 3 that you posted are the best of the group as far as detail, though both could be a bit closer to show more details, especially #2. In #3 I underlined in red what is obviously a cold weld with poorly washed in toes. They others don't look much better, but aren't as easily obvious in that pict due to distance. In Pict 3 I noted the saw toothed toe and wide oscillations with the red lines, The yellow line also shows the poor wash in of the toe. The blue line shows what looks like a pooorly aimed T joint. It looks like the majority of the weld is all on the bracket and little if any on the tube. On a fillet like this each leg of the weld should be equal, so if the leg on the bracket is 1/4", the leg on the tub should be 1/4" as well. If that plate is 1/4" you might have a 1/4" leg on the plate, but the leg on the tube looks to be 1/8" at best. Also the fill on that weld looks light. The bead has a flat to concave look, not a slightly convex look. your weld should just be above a 45 deg line drawn between the toes of each leg. It should NOT be tall and humped like it is in pict 2 that I underlined. That's a sure indication the weld is too cold..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:For your tig question, your description sounds like one of these three:  too long of arc, bad torch angle, not enough amps.It can also be more than one of them, but I'd lay best guess on long arc and not enough amps.Post all specifics and a pic of a tig weld for better advice.Welcome to the forum and I agree with DSW's advice as well.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Im not taking it as you being mean, i appreciate any help i can get. All the surrounding areas on all those welds in the pics were hit with a small 120 grit disc right up to the weld just to clean off any spatter and also remove the HAZ marks. I tried to burn it in pretty good, they all had a solid HAZ mark. I tried not to go too hot because i already had a little warpage a didnt want it to get worse. Corners are absolutely my weak spot. I need to work on adjusting my body to continue the weld without stopping or pausing. I cut up a few pieces that i welded and ended up not using, the penetration looked good through the cut and i beat the hell out of them with a sledge to the point the 3/16" was pretty much mangled and none of them cracked or anything like that. Ive never had anything crack or fail but i can definitely improve on many things. I appreciate the advice and will work more on itI dont have pics of the tig welds right now but can get some over the next day or two. I have the 3/32" tungsten that came in the torch, 1/16" er70s2 filler, and the 7 cup that came in the torch. Material was 1/8" and 3/16" mild steel hit with a flap wheel on both pieces, amps was around 105 but i tried raising and lowering it around that and no difference. Stickout was a tad under 3/8" trying to keep the arc as tight as possible without getting so low as to contaminate the tungsten ( which happened a few times ). I tried to keep my torch angle as low as possible. Maybe rotating to about 15 degrees just so i can see whats going on with the puddle and filler
Reply:Also i had my cfh set at around 18 but played with that as well, went as low as 12 ish and up around 26 just to see what would happen
Reply:Your mig welds look fine compared to many. They will certainly hold what you welded.Match your tungsten size to the metal thickness you are attempting to weld, and the amps likewise...Then use same size filler rod as the tungsten. Get arc started and build puddle, then just lay the filler in the puddle and let it melt in and drag the filler along just inside puddle while you concentrate on arc length and speed..Try it lay wire first....Filler in the puddle......Hell, try it first with no filler.....Get a good grip on the arc and dial in nuff amps to make decent puddle, and then just move it along without filler on flat material.
Reply:Heat marks don't mean squat. I can make all sorts of heat marks with an OA torch and never form a puddle at all. Same goes with the hammer test. Just because you can't break it, doesn't mean it's a good weld. One of the biggest "mistakes" I see guys make when they do these home 'tests" is that they weld both sides. This defeats the purpose of the test. Cold welds like yours will easily fail on a real bend test. The edges of the weld will tear out on the bend from lack of fusion.For 1/8" your amps should be around 125amps for steel. 3/16" you want to be up around 180 amps. It's possible to weld at lower amps, but you usually need to compensate in other areas like arc length, travel speed etc, and that only gives you a limited amount of adjustment. For students, we typically set the machines at 150 amps and then they can simply hold the pedal to the floor to weld 1/8" steel. This allows them to keep things simple and work on a minimal amount of variables like maintaining a consistent arc length and travel speed. After they get some experience with adding filler and are consistently making acceptable beads, we'll up the amps to say 150-180amps and let them practice using the pedal to maintain the amps they need.Low amps on thicker plate is a "crutch" and a bad habit to get into. You don't learn the signs that you are about to burn thru as the thick plate wicks away the heat and prevents this. Also with many materials heat control is critical , like with stainless and alum. It sounds backwards, but MORE amps and traveling faster puts Less heat into the work overall than going slow and low. As far as gas, 15-20 cfh is about right with a  standard cup. If using a gas lens, you can reduce your gas flow, or increase your stick out and still have good coverage. With a gas lens I'll usually use 8-12cfh with a #8 cup and medium stick out.It might pay to look around and see if any local high school tech school or community college offers night classes. When you usually sit down and add up what material, rod, gas, etc costs, not to mention equipment and instruction, a class it usually stupid cheap. Around me a night class at one of the technical high schools will run about $11.50 an hour..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:GreengrenadeBefore you do anything more - acquire: Lincoln Electric's The Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding; any edition from the 1970's forward is a good start.  Buy used . . .The book: will forward your welding, and gusset ambitions.You have: inordinate time invested in welding, and superfluouscomponent forming; engineer-first & art/form-second.Get the book . . .Opus        http://www.google.com/search?q=the+p...HfjICFsQ_AUIBAhttp://www.google.com/search?q=the+p...Hf1RCgwQ_AUIBQ
Reply:Ive never really had the opportunity to have a real test done on my welds , just sledgehammer and cutting to check penetration, i put one in a 20 ton press and it didnt fail but ive only done that once, figured it was good to go. I appreciate the info man. I have some 3/32 filler coming in the mail as long as more 3/32 tungsten. Ill give them a whirl when they come in. My amperage i was just going off the chart inside the miller and what i had seen on welding instructional videos online. Ill try higher amperage with the new filler and tungsten and see how it fairs. I did a small fusion weld on ~ 18 ga scrap and did a bend test both ways and that held fine and also layed down dead smooth. Im really just llaying with it and messing around untill i can get more practice this weekend. Trying to find a technique to feed filler that is comfortable too
Reply:Do you have the right polarity?If so it could be you are just babying the weld too much. You have to punch it and cram the rod into the puddle before it blobs back. The insertion of filler into the puddle will chill it some as well giving the bead profile while providing adequate reinforcement to boot. So punch, cram, and jam. Puddles don't like to dwell.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:I just love it when guys that admittedly have very little experience (tig)Start dispensing advice like they are seasoned professionals. Very amusing.   Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkMiller 211Hypertherm PM 451961 Lincoln Idealarc 250HTP 221  True Wisdom only comes from Pain.
Reply:What advice are you referring to john t ? Is there mis information that i should disregard? Im just trying to get some help and soak in as much info as possible
Reply:Originally Posted by GreengrenadeWhat advice are you referring to john t ? Is there mis information that i should disregard? Im just trying to get some help and soak in as much info as possible
Reply:GreengrenadeYou'll notice a big difference in the puddle when the amps go up - the puddle will follow you very nicely and filler will add without issues.The small movements forward, pausing to add filler, take a little time to get used to.  Move/add/move/add/move/add After the first 100 hours everything gets much easier - practice practice practice.I don't really mind using 1/16" rod up to 3/16" thick steel material. Just have to put more filler rod in instead of a little dip.But 3/32" feeds nice too - just be carefull to not go too big on filler rod, chills the puddle too much with each dip.Practice feeding the rod between your fingers so you can use an entire rod without stopping the weld.Watch Jody's videos at weldingtipsandtricks.com or welding-tv.com and practice what you find there.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by GreengrenadeWhat advice are you referring to john t ? Is there mis information that i should disregard? Im just trying to get some help and soak in as much info as possible
Reply:I don't look at the thickness as much as the amps for choosing tungsten size.
Reply:Cranked the amps up and went back at it. Seemed to solve my issue forming the puddle. This was my first attempt. Came out super hot. I dont have anywhere near enough skill to feed the filler fast enough to run 1/16 filler on high amps yet. This was on 190 ish or somewhere closeThese were my next two attempts. Dialed the amps to 180 and got an ok feed with my filler hand. My 3/32" filler just showed up in the mail today so ill give that a try asapAny other tips are appreciated. I watch a lot of weldingtipsandtricks videos on youtube. Tons of info. I watched all his mig videos and thought i was doing alright from the info he was giving. Ill have to go back and brush up on it
Reply:Not bad at all. I've seen guys do a lot worse just starting out. The last pict is particularly nice. The only comment I'd make on that is the bead looks a bit small for the material thickness shown. Typically the legs of a weld is about the size of the thinner base material ( assuming the two piece aren't the same thickness)  for max strength. More weld however doesn't give you any extra strength. Smaller welds may or may not be fine, but then you start getting into weld design to see if a weld of X size can take Y load and so on. In your case, if the material is 3/16" thick, each leg would want to be somewhere between 1/8" and 3/16". You legs look to be a bit less than 1/8" from what I can see in that picture.Take a piece of filler rod and get used to feeding it while watching TV. You want to get that repetitive motion down to the point where it's second nature. You don't have to be welding to do so. Wear the same tig glove you'd wear when welding when you practice..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Looking pretty good. You look to have steady hands.You have upped your amps and as you have said it cured the puddle problem. I get your frustration regarding the skinny rod and having to feed it so fast. It looks like your throat reinforcement is shallow. Bigger rod for me is not only much easier to feed because it is thicker, takes longer to run out, but you can control your bead profile and throat thickness better when the thicker rod soaks up some of that heat and your cramming speed is then not limited.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Like Goldie locks #3 looks just right. Pretty good man. What DSW said, a bit light for the plate size but you're 90% there. I've seen guys with years of experience do a LOT worse! Sent from my SCH-I605 using TapatalkRyanMiller Multimatic 200 tig/spool gun/wireless remoteMillermatic 350P, Bernard/XR Python gunsMiller Dynasty 350, Coolmate 3.5 & wireless remoteCK WF1 TIG wire feederMiller Spectrum 375 XtremeOptrel e684Miller Digital EliteMiller Weld-Mask
Reply:No 3 looks really consistent. But the leg height in the first pic compared  to the base metal looks huge. and the 3rd  pic it's the opposite, I know your just practicing but it's good to keep leg heights in mind for strength and warping issues