D14.1 Handrail Question

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Hi. I am having a difficult time finding the answers I need in the D14.1 code book. I am trying to find out if there is a specific weld test that I should give our welders, to weld handrail. Our outside inspection company says they need to take a 5G pipe test. Our plant manager says no. Our engineers can't tell us what part of the code this applies to. So, if any of you know where I can find this in the code book, it would be greatly appreciated!Tammi
Reply:my old company welder needed M1 certification or fillet welding steel with 7018 vertical up test. plate welding test.you wanted certified pipe welders to do handrail you might have trouble finding welders. millwrights usually make handrail as well as structural steel beams and stairs and stuff .old handrail test was handrail needed to take over 200 or 250 lbs in any direction continuously. rusty and chemically attacked handrail can get brittle. usually you yanked them hard and fast to see if anything breaks or good wack with hammer as addition test. intergranular stress corrosion i believe they call it. seen welds get brittle that were ok years earlier..most smart millwrights put extra big welds on handrail posts where they attach near floor. thats where rain waters and chemicals go bottom of the posts. never ever want the posts to break free ever. posts should bend firstLast edited by WNY_TomB; 04-08-2016 at 02:26 PM.
Reply:Tammi,Just by looking at the table of contents for the D1.14 (which is all I have access to at the moment) I would think that the answers you're looking for could be found in Section 9.   Particularly parts "A" and "C".
Reply:Originally Posted by Tammi30Hi. I am having a difficult time finding the answers I need in the D14.1 code book. I am trying to find out if there is a specific weld test that I should give our welders, to weld handrail. Our outside inspection company says they need to take a 5G pipe test. Our plant manager says no. Our engineers can't tell us what part of the code this applies to. So, if any of you know where I can find this in the code book, it would be greatly appreciated!Tammi
Reply:Originally Posted by WNY_TomBmy old company welder needed M1 certification or fillet welding steel with 7018 vertical up test. plate welding test.you wanted certified pipe welders to do handrail you might have trouble finding welders. millwrights usually make handrail as well as structural steel beams and stairs and stuff .old handrail test was handrail needed to take over 200 or 250 lbs in any direction continuously. rusty and chemically attacked handrail can get brittle. usually you yanked them hard and fast to see if anything breaks or good wack with hammer as addition test. intergranular stress corrosion i believe they call it. seen welds get brittle that were ok years earlier..most smart millwrights put extra big welds on handrail posts where they attach near floor. thats where rain waters and chemicals go bottom of the posts. never ever want the posts to break free ever. posts should bend first
Reply:We weld overhead cranes. Typically to D14.1 and D1.1
Reply:I cannot find anything specific to handrail (sch 40 pipe). The rail is designed into the walk of the girder. What am I missing? I'm pulling out my hair about now. I think engineering needs to define it.
Reply:Then your test should be as the rest of the crane. Seeing has it is in plant welding.  Or is this after instillation in the plant that will be using it?Klutch 220si mig , stick, and dc tigHobart 140 AHP ALPHA 200X 2016Lotos LTP5000DSmith O/P
Reply:Someone help if I'm wrong here, because I'm usually under the hood not at the desk finding these answers. I think your solution is in D1.1. your handrail is a 1/8" and thicker correct? Doesn't that fall under D1.1, criteria?
Reply:If you've already got welders qualified to the D1.1 and D14.1 to weld up overhead crane components sounds to me like you've already got it covered.  I'd certainly think one of the qualified procedures you're already using could be extended to cover the material thickness, joint designs, welding positions and welding processes involved with knock'n out a little handrail.   Most likely it's all going to get done flat and be mostly fillet welds.   I'll be surprised if you find a "handrail" specific weld qualification.Last edited by HT2-4956; 04-08-2016 at 05:00 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by hillbillyfabMillwrights, you say? I gotta remember to stay away from NY then.   Where I'm from that's the work of the ironworkers.
Reply:Come to think of it, I've been to some sites where the hand rail is angle iron, not tube.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Originally Posted by hillbillyfabMillwrights, you say? I gotta remember to stay away from NY then.   Where I'm from that's the work of the ironworkers.
Reply:Originally Posted by snoeproeCome to think of it, I've been to some sites where the hand rail is angle iron, not tube.
Reply:Originally Posted by Tammi30We weld overhead cranes. Typically to D14.1 and D1.1
Reply:I would think an overhead gee groove qualification would be the one.
Reply:Originally Posted by snoeproeSame here. We do this work. We (ironworkers) fabricate, install and erect the stairs, hand rail, platform decks and ladders.  This is not millwright work. You certainly don't need a pipe welding ticket  to weld hand rail. Hand rail is not pressure pipe. It's tube. To weld hand rail in Canada you require an all position structural steel welding ticket.
Reply:if what your outside inspection says is true, my guess would be it has something to do w/ the dia. of the pipe.     for me anyway, the smaller the pipe, the harder to weld .     like, d1.1 lets you weld pipe i think, but nothing under 24"  or something big like that.    so if you test on 6" pipe, i think a question would be how small dia. pipe are you qualified to go?    I don't know that answer, but i'd think there would be a min. dia.     So my guess is your handrails are outa pipe, and they want someting that qualifies you to the type of welding and the  dia. pipe your welding on.    maybe find out the min dia your guys are qualified to go, or send your outside inspection company an email asking them to reply by email/in writing  what cert/procedure that your guys don't already have, that is required.
Reply:Oh god, don't tell the assholes down at WTC that handrails fall under d1.1. Progress will get even slower.IW Local 580 NY, NY
Reply:Originally Posted by WNY_TomB.my old company had "field machinist" also called millwrights. they had no "ironworkers". millwrights did ironwork as well as many other things. i have easily welded 500 to 1000 tons of "ironwork" over the years. i had a M1 carbon steel fillet welding all position certification. thats all my old company required for handrail. i usually used 6010 for handrail.i also did machinist work too as part of being a millwright. i also have machined easily over 800 tons of parts over the years too. currently i am working as cnc machinist. i do not miss installing ironwork in the rain and the cold. kind of nice being in a temperatured controlled machine shop.
Reply:Originally Posted by snoeproeThat's typical for an in plant maintenance program. However, it's not typical for unionized new construction projects. Also, if your working under the structural code for ladders, handrail and stairs, you would know that 6010 is not acceptable. It's low hy welding procedures only just like structural steel.
Reply:Originally Posted by snoeproeThat's typical for an in plant maintenance program. However, it's not typical for unionized new construction projects. Also, if your working under the structural code for ladders, handrail and stairs, you would know that 6010 is not acceptable. It's low hy welding procedures only just like structural steel.
Reply:Originally Posted by docweldersnoe; that i did not know. i've welded lot's of railing in the shop and always used 6013. the few times i welded them in the field i probably used 6010.
Reply:"Did someone say handrail?"   Lol, here come the ironworkers, bored of their brainless jobs, trying to do millwright work again!    But anyway, catwalk guardrail on a bridge crane seems to be somewhat of a gray area in regards to welding...  ASME "B30.2-2005: Overhead and Gantry Cranes" says handrail must be built in accordance with ANSI A1264.1, which doesn't specify welding.   ANSI/NAAMM AMP 521-01 Pipe Railing Systems Manual is also of no help.     However, this topic has been discussed on the AWS website, so you may find some good information there.....https://www.google.ca/#q=handrail+we...te:app.aws.org
Reply:Originally Posted by WNY_TomB.me i always look on drawing what welding rod to use or when i order the pipe i pick a steel type and welding rod that is ok with engineer and job application..A36 structural steel jobs weld inspectors came by and say you got to use 70xx rod 6010 no good even if been used last 50 years. so pipe welders use 7010............ some pipe welders really like their 6010 and 7010. sure they can use 7018 easily but they really really like their cellulose rods (6010/7010).for myself i can use either.Originally Posted by Advan"Did someone say handrail?"   Lol, here come the ironworkers, bored of their brainless jobs, trying to do millwright work again!    But anyway, catwalk guardrail on a bridge crane seems to be somewhat of a gray area in regards to welding...  ASME "B30.2-2005: Overhead and Gantry Cranes" says handrail must be built in accordance with ANSI A1264.1, which doesn't specify welding.   ANSI/NAAMM AMP 521-01 Pipe Railing Systems Manual is also of no help.     However, this topic has been discussed on the AWS website, so you may find some good information there.....https://www.google.ca/#q=handrail+we...te:app.aws.org
Reply:Originally Posted by WNY_TomB.it certainly helps to know what steel type the handrail pipe is and what steel type you are welding too. i always ordered my own steel and welding rod. .maybe unions have a special guy to order steel and welding rod
Reply:If I had any quantity of industrial grade handrail to build stick welding it wouldn't be my first choice.   In a perfect world I think a pulsed sprayed hard wire would be the ticket.   If I didn't have a sophisticated enough power source / feeder to pull that off the next thing I'd look at would be some .035 dual shield.
Reply:Originally Posted by HT2-4956If I had any quantity of industrial grade handrail to build stick welding it wouldn't be my first choice.   In a perfect world I think a pulsed sprayed hard wire would be the ticket.   If I didn't have a sophisticated enough power source / feeder to pull that off the next thing I'd look at would be some .035 dual shield.
Reply:Originally Posted by docwelderht; funny you should say that. thinking back the fab shop had mig and flux core which would've been a better choice than stick. we didn't do all that much railing work and that could've been why.
Reply:Originally Posted by HT2-4956doc,I've actually done quite a bit of industrial handrail out of sch. 40 tube using short circuit transfer hard wire.   I wouldn't recommend doing it with one of those 110V HF units but if you've got a half way decent basic mig machine you can do a dam good job of it.
Reply:Good morning!  You've all had some good answers! My guys in the weld shop say it's ornamental.  The 1-1/4" sch 40 handrail is welded as butt joints in fixed position.  My outside inspection guy says it tube and because of that, the guys need to test for pipe.  He got audited and they cracked down on him, so he's cracking down on us and our certs.  It's not a pressure pipe, so they don't want to have to test. I used to weld/build industrial stairs and railings myself and it never came into question. I'm going to let engineering make the call and see if they define it as ornamental also. My NIAC audit starts today and I'm sure I'll hear if there is something wrong. Keep the answers coming guys!Tammi
Reply:Originally Posted by HT2-4956If I had any quantity of industrial grade handrail to build stick welding it wouldn't be my first choice.   In a perfect world I think a pulsed sprayed hard wire would be the ticket.   If I didn't have a sophisticated enough power source / feeder to pull that off the next thing I'd look at would be some .035 dual shield.
Reply:In the shop we use .030/.035 bare wire w/ 75/25 shield gas.....In the field 3/32" or 1/8" 6010 for all butt welds of pipe....( softer bead to grind/easier to finish grind/sand) ....On post connections to stairs or catwalk steel ..1/8" 7018 rod.......
Reply:I found this to be some good discussion on the politics of building handrail.https://app.aws.org/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=26948