Damascus Metal???

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Can someone tell me what Damascus is? Is it hard to wirk with.....welding, grinding......etc?
Reply:No one knows exactly how true Damascus steel was made. It's been lost to the ages. If you're working with a modern facsimile, read up on it.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel-Chris
Reply:What is typically called "Damascus" steel is pattern welded steel. It's made up of different alloys in alternating layers that are forge welded together. The different patterns come from what is done to the material as it's welded and forged.As far as how hard/easy it is to work with, that depends a lot on what was used to make up the billet. Some materials will harden and react different than others will. That's part of what gives pattern welded steel it's "charm"..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW is correct.Working it is the same as working the harder metal in the billet. So depending on what you want to do, make it, forge it from a completed billet or make something through stock removal of a billet will all have varying degrees of difficulty.But it is steel, if you can work steel you can work damascus.I been making it over 20 years.
Reply:i remember reading that damascus or wootz steel was tempered by plunging it red/white hot into living flesh. yikes!i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:I doubt it. Possible I guess but not likely. First off nobody knows how it was made so that sounds like an urban legend. Plus if someone was trying to stick you with a hot sword you would probably try moving around and that would bend the blade before it quenched or break it after it quenched. Plus most live flesh is not thick enough to sink and entire blade without it coming out the back and that would not quench it properly.Probably quenched it in lard made from animal fat or just water.
Reply:He didn't say human flesh . . . for what little that is worth . . .- Tim
Reply:Originally Posted by docwelderi remember reading that damascus or wootz steel was tempered by plunging it red/white hot into living flesh. yikes!
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerI doubt it. Possible I guess but not likely. First off nobody knows how it was made so that sounds like an urban legend. Plus if someone was trying to stick you with a hot sword you would probably try moving around and that would bend the blade before it quenched or break it after it quenched. Plus most live flesh is not thick enough to sink and entire blade without it coming out the back and that would not quench it properly.Probably quenched it in lard made from animal fat or just water.
Reply:I have a gun, a double barreled shotgun with side hammers of Damascus steel. Looking at it closely I can see that it is layers of folded steel. J. A. Manton 12 Gauge. Somewhere I have seen an internet video of a blacksmith making Damascus steel. If I remember it wasn't alloys, but strength gained from forge welding layer upon layer, pounding, or rolling it super thin, and folding it again. All this is when it is red hot.My gun was very old when my father born in 1922 bought it. He never trusted it. He used Sure Shot shells in it, a mild load he felt safe with. He never used it in my lifetime. He used instead a more modern Stevens 12 Gauge side by side without hammers. I guess that gun might be well over 100 years old now.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:actually guys this isn't something i witnessed first hand at the job. i collect old welding and welding related books and i believe i read it in a 1950's book called the story of metals. the myth goes it was plunged into the fleshy part of a slave's back and thigh while reciting a prayer to time it. most likely some poor crusader got a first hand demonstration of it's effectiveness. it's also got a great pic of a blacksmith sitting at the right hand of solomon.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:You quench swords in Nubian slaves.Saw an old article about Wootz/Damascus steel where they did some metallurgical analysis on old swords.  Apparently the ore or raw steel came from India and the particular vein of ore was unique.  Maybe it had a high Vanadium content, among other things.  The swordmakers in Damascus learned to work with this stuff.  Maybe it was pattern welded and successive layers picked up additional carbon from a charcoal fired forge.  Apparently the ore ran out, or that's the guess, and it fell by the wayside.   Think there was another place in Cuba that had some ore that was very good, back before they knew what they were dealing with. Welding any of it, aside from forge/pattern welding, would be a waste."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie B If I remember it wasn't alloys, but strength gained from forge welding layer upon layer, pounding, or rolling it super thin, and folding it again. All this is when it is red hot.
Reply:Modern day work
Reply:There is a marine who makes custom knifes and tempers them in pig blood just for the infidel effect. I will have to look up the name. As a father of four combat marines, their sister really wants to buy one. They aren't Damascus but he uses good knife quality steel and seems to know what he's doing.   I'm not sure why you would want to weld Damascus. Everything I've ever seen is made out of a solid blank. What is your need to do this?
Reply:Got a guy that is looking into make Indian war clubs. The blade he wants possibly made of damascus. The welding comes in where I need to weld a wood thread stud to hold it in place.
Reply:Hey Bob, I take it you have a heading die made up to make the head of the spike..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I've Tig welded Damascus steel exactly one time.  I have a friend that is a knife maker and one of his customers (a saddle maker) brought him a Damascus leather round knife to repair the handle on (wood broke completely off).  These things typically have a very narrow (~3/8" wide) tang pushed inside a wooden handle. He asked me to weld a wider, longer tang the same shape as the handle slabs he designed for it.  Knowing NOTHING about Damascus at the time, I was most afraid I would discolor it.  I did some Google on it, I was careful with the heat, and it turned out just fine.  Now I know ALMOST NOTHING about Damascus, except that I can Tig weld it successfully without destroying it Dynasty 200DXBobcat 250, TD Cutmaster 38 Hobart Stickmate AC/DC LXHobart 210 Mig / SpoolgunCentury Mig, O/A rigPress/Ring Roller/Tubing Roller/Hyd. Pipe BenderJD2 Notcher/IR 80gal 5hp compressorportaband/chopsaw/grinders/etc.
Reply:blackbartThere is a marine who makes custom knifes and tempers them in pig blood
Reply:Interesting Bob. You did a great job. I completely understand what you are saying about delaminating. I know several guys who have had that issue when trying to slit and drift damascus billets to do pattern welded bottle openers..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Good to see you Bob! MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Thanks duaneb55, been a while. Hopefully I can stop breaking my body and stick around a while. Fighting with doctors on who has the right opinion on back surgeries but as long as I can walk, I'm not doing it.Just cause several doctors say it is the only option, I say unless you can GUARANTEE I'll be in better shape after, I'll take my chances. None can do that so I won't let them "TRY."BUT, until I'm down for the count I keep doing what I can.
Reply:The fact that a practice doesn't make sense to us has nothing to do with whether it made sense to people raised in an age of alchemy, witches, vampires, a flat earth, "medical" bloodletting and trepanning, etc., etc.. But yeah, Bob, probably working bladesmiths learned good quenching techniques, and saved the other methods for occasional show for building a reputation while hiding the real trade secrets. The OP asked about welding Damascus steel. Welding is a casting process (even with post-weld peening), and a line of cast steel in a complex layered forging would be a major disuniformity in grain structure.  As to whether that might be okay sometimes, I'll pass on the most frequent answer I used to get form one of my welding instructors:  "Weelll  .  .  .  it depends  .  .  . .
Reply:I was under the impression you just harden Damascus and don't temper it. The advantage being the hard, brittle layers are supported by the softer steel. Or if you did temper it you would do it to a harder temper than normal. Bob, what two steel types do you use? Do you temper after hardening?
Reply:How about brazing/silver soldering it? Way lower temperature than welding.BlackbartYou still have to temper damascus (Pattern welded steel). If you harden it, it is way to brittle to withstand any use. I can't speak for others but my damascus is made from two high carbon steels. Usually 1095 and 15N20 or 1075 and 15N20. When using these steels even the welds are hard and will break if not tempered. I temper them the same as any other knife made from those steels.
Reply:Thanks.  I always assumed one was softer, more of a spring type steel to provide a support for a harder than normal steel.  Here is a link for the infield knives made by a combat marine. Apparently he just mixes pig blood into his normal quenching mix, just to take a jab at the enemy.http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...nives/2965531/  Originally Posted by Bob WarnerBlackbartYou still have to temper damascus (Pattern welded steel). If you harden it, it is way to brittle to withstand any use. I can't speak for others but my damascus is made from two high carbon steels. Usually 1095 and 15N20 or 1075 and 15N20. When using these steels even the welds are hard and will break if not tempered. I temper them the same as any other knife made from those steels.
Reply:These steels are spring steels, the tempering is what makes them firm or springy.I get the blood thing now. No reason for it in knifemaking but added to the quench due to the aversion to pork of the middle east culture and marking the extremist as unclean. That makes more sense than trying to actually quench in blood alone. Thanks for the link.If pork wasn't so great in the smoker I would want to bury all of those Murderers with their very own pig. Those virgins they get won't want anything to do with the unclean.
Reply:Pig blood?  I would just test the finished blade by slicing some SPAM.  In the can, mind you.  "Laminated" steel does often use a softer or tougher steel cladding outside a hard core.  Damascus is generally thin layers (after forging) with steels that will show a contrasting pattern (one with nickel, for example) when etched.  Better to have both types of steel hardenable due to the fine pattern and thin layering."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:The small amount of pigs blood he adds is just for a sales kick for marines etc. It works though, 4 of my sons are marines and their sister wants one!
Reply:Hey, I like it. Maybe others should do that (hint to self).I won't as it is his thing but it is creative to say the least.
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerHey, I like it. Maybe others should do that (hint to self).I won't as it is his thing but it is creative to say the least.
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerIf pork wasn't so great in the smoker I would want to bury all of those Murderers with their very own pig. Those virgins they get won't want anything to do with the unclean.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BI have a gun, a double barreled shotgun with side hammers of Damascus steel. Looking at it closely I can see that it is layers of folded steel. J. A. Manton 12 Gauge. Somewhere I have seen an internet video of a blacksmith making Damascus steel. If I remember it wasn't alloys, but strength gained from forge welding layer upon layer, pounding, or rolling it super thin, and folding it again. All this is when it is red hot.My gun was very old when my father born in 1922 bought it. He never trusted it. He used Sure Shot shells in it, a mild load he felt safe with. He never used it in my lifetime. He used instead a more modern Stevens 12 Gauge side by side without hammers. I guess that gun might be well over 100 years old now.
Reply:Pattern welding gun barrels was a high art at one time.Article on how they were made:  http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/...welded-or.html"USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:That's pretty impressive to say the least. UMCPOP I think of you and other gold star parents often. And, yes, my youngest (4th) just got deployed as a machine gunner with 1/1. He left at 3am today.