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Looking for advice on Tig welding a lid onto an aluminum tube. I'm using a Diversion 165 with foot control. The aluminum is .065" (thin for me) 6061 aluminum, and I'm using 4043 filler rod. Fit up is good, with the lid (disk) beveled a bit so it sits nicely in the tube with just a little ledge of the tube exposed. I can do reasonable beads on flat aluminum and flat butt joints. The issue I'm having is moving around the top of the tube and keeping the stick angle/arc length consistent all the way around. The torch cord is bulky and its hard to stay in position. I can do nice beads around the top for maybe a quarter of the tube, but then pretty much have to stop and reposition the tube or else I start blowing holes and touching the parts, etc. Tips, tricks, suggestions?Picture below is a practice piece just to show what I'm doing. I re-welded this a few times to try to hone my (awful) technique....
Reply:You just gota keep practicing. Prop on somthing and get comfy. You have to rotate the torch with your wrist or thumb as you go around the pipe. Lets see what the first pass looked like?what is this for?
Reply:Use a pipe wrench or chain vise grips for a place to rest your hand. Attached ImagesDont pay any attention to meIm just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:That's a good idea. Might ding up the aluminum tho
Reply:Originally Posted by motolife313Might ding up the aluminum tho
Reply:Originally Posted by motolife313You just gota keep practicing. Prop on somthing and get comfy. You have to rotate the torch with your wrist or thumb as you go around the pipe. Lets see what the first pass looked like?what is this for?
Reply:I don't have much experience tigging alu or any thin tube for the matter but...In general, I think most people start their welds where they are most comfortable. I try to get a good idea of what range of positions I will be transitioning trough for a given weld and start a little bit before where it seems natural to begin. This prevents me from getting in too much off a bind toward the end and allowing for a longer weld overall. With some practice it becomes an enjoyable challenge. I've been able to weld fillets around 1-6in round parts in one pass or 4 sides of square parts with a special sideways moon walk incorporated.How long is the tube your welding? I would prefer to weld it standing up so you could walk/lean around it rather than dealing with going uphill/downhill. If it is to long to stand up then what I have done on 3-6in pipe to base plate connections is wrap your ground a few times around the opposite end of the tube in the direction so it will roll away from you. Position the clamp 12'oclock, then place your rest hand plam down on the tube and your torch hand on the back of your rest hand. Now the weigh of the ground clamp will make the tube rotate away from you, rest hand will regulate the speed and now you have a simple rolled weld.
Reply:Why don't you make life easier on your self? Buy one of these! Attached ImagesDont pay any attention to meIm just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPUse a pipe wrench or chain vise grips for a place to rest your hand.
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749Of course, that hobby welder CEP has everything
Reply:No doubt!!!I'm jealous If I lived near you, you wouldn't be able to get rid of me Expert Garage Hack....https://www.facebook.com/steven.webber.948
Reply:Welding it in quarters or whatever is fine. It takes a lot of skill to weld that all the way around in one shot without a positioner. Work in sections that are comfortable to you and just nail the restarts and most will never know the difference.I'll agree you want to set things up so it's at a comfortable level and you can rest your arms on something. with something tall like that, I'll often set it on something on the floor so it's at a comfortable height relative to my bench vs siting it on the bench and having to stand to get my arms at the right level, or use something like a saw horse positioned at the right height so I can rest my arms..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW, I've taken that very approach when welding the ends of tube. A couple of pieces of angle welded to a pair of 11's then I clamed the 11's to the top of the bench. It works.JimJim,I don't mean to be argumentative and cantankerous,but I am getting older and a bit crotchety!Addendum; AND CRANKY
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749If I lived near you, you wouldn't be able to get rid of me
Reply:Would it work easier for you if you made the end cap the same size as the OD of the tube instead of sinking it into the inside. You could then weld with the tube laying flat on the bench instead of standing up.
Reply:Without a positioner to rotate the part for you, your only real option is to do it in quarters. Aluminum really works best with a v prep, you need somewhere to put the filler, so whether you weld on the side or the end it helps to put a decent bevel on the cap and tube. You'll need to work on re-starting without making it obvious, that's the real secret. You can stop/start as many times as needed once your re-starts are smooth. Don't forget about heat soak, after the first two quarters it's time for a coffee break while the part cools back down, otherwise things will turn to crap in the last few inches.SqWave 200Millermatic 190Airco 200 ACHypertherm PM45Boice-Crane Band SawVictor O/A
Reply:I did these on Papa Lion's gates. Just rolled them along the edge of the welding table. For a newbie at TIG, I think I did ok. Attached ImagesMarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:I don't think those would hold water Mark. The big difference there is you probably fused the steel (not ideal by the way), without filler. Trying that with aluminum will get you a slap in the head and a broken part.SqWave 200Millermatic 190Airco 200 ACHypertherm PM45Boice-Crane Band SawVictor O/A
Reply:Nope probably won't hold water, but the top tube of the gate covers most of it anyway.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Re post #8.... Does this thing rotate a part as you weld? Can you control the turn rate? Have any video of it in action? Are these commercially available or do you make it? And, what are 11's? Thanks all for the input--very helpful
Reply:Originally Posted by tom86951Re post #8.... Does this thing rotate a part as you weld? Can you control the turn rate? Have any video of it in action? Are these commercially available or do you make it?
Reply:Originally Posted by tom86951Re post #8.... Does this thing rotate a part as you weld? Can you control the turn rate? Have any video of it in action? Are these commercially available or do you make it? And, what are 11's? Thanks all for the input--very helpful
Reply:Here is a Tig weld I made with the positioner when I first got it. Attached ImagesDont pay any attention to meIm just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:What diameter of filler are you using?Personally, I'd ditch the bulk torch that Miller supplied with the unit. If I were stuck with the torch, I'd at least switch over to a stubby gas lens.ESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:There are already write ups on converting to a conventional torch.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brainOriginally Posted by CEPHere is a Tig weld I made with the positioner when I first got it.
Reply:Originally Posted by tom86951Is welding one of those things where more and better equipment will make me be a better welder
Reply:@ CEP how much does a positioner like that go for?
Reply:How about this torch for thin aluminum work:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Miller-Diver...item2ec43c8453
Reply:I think you'll find that any air cooled torch is not up to the task to weld AL with much thickness. Torches tend to have a lower rating on AC than DC.I bought a CK230 water cooled, and made a cheap water cooler...just a tank I welded up out of galvanized sheet I had (About 3 gallons), and a left over RV water pump that runs off 12V. I used it because I had it, but there are plenty of AC120V RV style pressure switch units for cheap.Anyway, the water cooled torch is smaller and lighter and can handle 300A AC or DC. The ultra flex hoses are super nice. I'm sure most manufacturers have something similar.If you go this way, see if there is a way to interlock the pump with the arc start on your machine. I learned the hard way that without the cooler on, the power lead lets the smoke out pretty quickly!! Doh!! I have since interlocked the main contactor coil power!I see you said thin AL...I'm sure it would be ok....but it's way more fun to weld THICK AL!Chay
Reply:Originally Posted by motolife313@ CEP how much does a positioner like that go for?
Reply:Holy cow those prices are horrible for what you get. I would just make my own when I want one
Reply:Originally Posted by motolife313I would just make my own when I want one
Reply:I would think they would need to be geard way down tho right? Sorry for changing the guys thread a little hopefully he got everything he needs to know
Reply:Originally Posted by motolife313I would think they would need to be geard way down tho right? Sorry for changing the guys thread a little hopefully he got everything he needs to know
Reply:That's the harder way to do fit up like that if you want to get a full penetration weld, especially with an edge so close. You will need quite a bit of power to blast your way thru the material with it fitted up like that. Your original way of setting it up so the two inner edges meet leaving you a "V" to fill on the outside is a bit easier to do. then you just have a fillet to weld. You could also set the cap down inside and weld a fillet there, but I'd find the torch easier to manipulate from the outside than the inside myself. If you beveled the cap, and filled the bevel in, that would make it a bit easier as you won't need so much heat, but getting the cap positioned and tacked will be tougher.You are taking on a tough challenge. Outside corners take some finesse to do well. But welds with no gap will be tougher. To compound the difficulty, you are working on a round surface and a small one at that. As some one earlier mentioned, turning the piece sideways and rolling the weld would be the easiest as you are welding flat the whole time ( or just about). Turning it up on end and rotating the pipe would work also. the key with these is that you keep the torch angle relative to the small area right where you are welding the same all the time, and that means changing how you hold the torch as you move along on the outside..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I agree with the rotary being a great tool but for those long tapered parts it makes a tough set up....As far as your torch set up I still like a sharpened RED tungsten for a tight arc that is required for your on edge tube welds...you really dont need allthat filler you have applied for a good weld.......especially if its thin walled like you mentioned....I use a 1/16 " tungsten and small cup...a gas lens isnt necessary for this type part weld. set your amps to 80 and sneak up on the puddle and add filler as needed ( I like 1/16 4043 or the new filler 4943 ) set your balance toward the cleaning side or 78 or higher depending on what the machine offers....this set up in my opinion will give you the best advantage your machine can give you the rest is experience..... Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:After half 3 or 4 more tries on the tube and lots of practice beads and joints on flat .065, I'm getting a little better. It would seem to be 90 technique, though I did turn the amps down on the machine to protect the metal from my foot, and I switched to a 1/16 electrode and filler rod. Still not good, but making some progress.I'm actively going to look for a flexible hose torch for the Diversion 165 in the meantime.Any thoughts/tips on this -- other than "get better at welding..."
Reply:Have you practiced on a out side corner 90 degree joint?set it up like a piece of angle iron and start on that.
Reply:Bead looks kind of muddy with no definition. Hard to say from that pict, but it looks like you may be overheating the material. Your amps may be too low and you are either creeping up on your puddle with your amps, or you are moving too slow and things are getting heat soaked. You have to hammer alum and FLY! Part of this might be due to the fact you had the base cap set up to slide down inside vs setting the piece up like an outside corner.I'd suggest working out your amps on flat pieces 1st setting up the outside corner like Moto suggested, with the inside corners just touching. I'd have the machine set on at least 100 amps. I'd go with a 3/32" tungsten sharpened to a nice sharp point like a pencil. 1/16" filler will work, just make sure your torch doesn't get angled too far over. Pound the pedal to get the puddle to form right away and GO! backing down on your amps with the pedal to compensate as things start to heat up. I'd probably strike my arc on a piece of filler in the joint to get started and once I had the puddle bridge both sides, just keep adding filler to the puddle as I go..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:AL pipe is always a good time!like the other guys said, make yourself comfortable first, and try this.without touching the pedal, or without flipping your mask down, guide the torch exactly like you would if you were welding. go through the motions. it'll show you any points that you're not going to be comfortablediscomfort=bad weldsat least in my experience, even crawling 30 feet into a tube barely as wide as my shoulders to weld overhead, I still managed to find a spot that was comfortable enough to lay down a good bead.Edit: I almost forgot, try holding your torch a different way. I always held my torch like a gun, hand on the grip just like a pistol, I watched my coworker holding it kinda like a pencil, with his hand up and around the black tungsten cap, I gave it a shot and low an behold I was able to get on top of what I was welding and it was a world more comfortable, mess around with how you normally do things, shake it up a bit, might make your life easier!Last edited by Ian Duffin; 02-02-2015 at 09:13 PM.Miller Spoolmate 200 w/t S-52 WirefeederMM 211'09 Miller Trailblazer 302
Reply:Originally Posted by Ian DuffinI almost forgot, try holding your torch a different way. I always held my torch like a gun, hand on the grip just like a pistol, I watched my coworker holding it kinda like a pencil, with his hand up and around the black tungsten cap, I gave it a shot and low an behold I was able to get on top of what I was welding and it was a world more comfortable
Reply:I can't stand my 17 torch. And I like to hold the torch high too. I had to put a shop towel around it last night and that was with a glove and holding it low
Reply:Originally Posted by OxfordI feel more comfortable and prefer to hold the torch like a pencil as well. A water cooled torch is much preferred over an air cooled one though.
Reply:Thanks so much for all these suggestions! Super appreciated. I'll keep at it. That weld looks melted because I went around a second (or third) time to fix leaks. So I kind of just smoothed out the ripples (and ugly places) as I went around again.I have to change the cable to the torch -- the Diversion torch cable is very thick and bulky....I moved down to the 1/16 electrode after talking to my local welding shop guy. Think I should go back to 3/32 for .063 aluminum?
Reply:You will need more then 63 amps more like 100 like dsw said. If your 1/16 tungsten isn't going crazy you can use it. But your probably on the edge of needing to go to 3/32.
Reply:I keep 3/32" in the torch 90% of the time for what I need to do. I jump up to 1/8" on occasion with 1/8" alum. 3/32" lanthanated is right on the edge for the amps I like to run on alum. I get a more controlled arc, but I loose the fine tip faster on the smaller tungsten, thus I have to grind more frequently. When I need the control, like on outside corners, I'll run the smaller tungsten. If I'm doing a lot of fillets, I'll just use the bigger tungsten and not have to grind unless I'm stupid and foul the tungsten.I don't use 1/16" much as far as tungstens. I have a few, but generally I can get by with 3/32" ground to a sharp point for the limited amount of thinner stuff I need to tig. As Moto said, I'd need to see if the 1/16" would hold the amps. My guess is you are going to be like me and be right on the edge, depending on what type of tungsten you are using. BC suggests using 1/16" tungsten, and he does a lot more alum tig than I do. I'd be comfortable going with his suggestions based on his experience. His Dynasty is closer to your Diversion than my Syncrowave is, since both of your machines are inverters and they'll probably hold a point a bit better than my machine will on AC..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Well, straight outside corners with 1/8' aluminum is good practice! I think this is better, right? I did this drill several times today -- this is the last one of the day. What say you all?
Reply:Not bad at all. What does the back look like?Circled area looks quite nice. The back will tell me if you had enough heat to penetrate thru, or if this is just sitting on top. This is what you want the edge of you can to look like. You do the same thing, only you need to keep adjusting the torch angle as you go around.Easiest way I can explain this is to think of a line tangent to the circle where you are going to weld. This line is the flat plate you just welded. Draw a line to represent the angle of your torch to the tangent line as a reference. Now draw a tangent line some where else on the circle and again draw your torch line in relation to the "flat" piece you welded. You'll see if you keep doing this that your line for the torch keeps changing as you swing around, even though that line in relation to the tangent line stays the same. I hope that makes sense..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:That looks real good!! Now practice on 1/16 sense that tube your trying to weld is 1/16 |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:07:55