Possibility of Spray Weld to Restore Fordson Antique Cast Iron Pistons

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I have a question about Spray Welding Process .  Would it work on Fordson Antique Cast Iron Pistons ? These Pistons are next to impossible to find in good shape to use. If I could have them built up and recut to size to save the ones I have . Attached Images
Reply:Castweld here would probably be the best to answer this question. He does a lot of iron welding and spray welding. If he doesn't chime in you might try and PM him..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Hit up JE pistons and send them one of yours. They can custom make pretty much anything.
Reply:Thank you much appreciated
Reply:Thank you have not tried them
Reply:Just to clarify, the "spray" welding 560 is seeking is an iron powder spray welding process using a special type of O/A torch which is vastly different from "spray transfer" associated with solid wire MIG welding.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Originally Posted by 560DennisThank you have not tried them
Reply:I wonder if anyone makes cast iron pistons today. There are companies that make custom aluminium pistons though. Would it be possible to have aluminium pistons made, and the crank rebalanced for light weight pistons?
Reply:Also contact Egge machine. They've been making pistons since 1916.https://egge.com/
Reply:I have done spray weld quite a bit but it was many years ago. The cast iron took spray weld better than most things. That said in this case I think I would only do it as a last resort but at the top of the list for cast repair of this part. What I am saying is I would try to get a different one first.  The spray weld is a mechanical bond and therefore there is a limit to its use. The nice thing about it is that it is done at similar temps to brazing and so it does not change the metallurgy like a weld would on cast iron. The strength is also similar to brazing . It is only used for build up of parts, not for connecting parts. So this application is correct. The part I do not know is if it would be prone to galling in this application. I would call Eutectic or another maker of spray powders and see if you can get some one with some first hand knowledge for this application. I do know that just like brazing the more surface contact with the original metal the stronger the bond. So If I were to do it I would prepare the part so that I had as much surface contact as possible. That might involve turning it in a lathe to chamfer the part all the way around to widen the contact area and to have the bond all the way around the part. I would also make some deep grooves in the area to give a threading effect to the bond area. This will also increase bonding area and also improve the mechanical bond. If you do it make sure you balance it with any other pistons.  After thinking about it more I would fix it with using the described prep as I stated above. It will probably cost more to fix though than buying new if you can get one. There is a lot of time investment into repairing it. I do not have a spray weld torch but I have everything else to be able to do the job. I would estimate that if you can find the right person to do it, it will take the better part of a day to prep it , spray it, then finish machine it. Who ever does it will need to have the rings available for sizing and will need to take full mic reading of everything before and after. it will defenatly be time consuming. The actual spray welding of the part will not take that long to do but there is going to be a lot of over spray and therefore a lot of machine work. I can not remember but it seems to me they make some kind of paint on coating to protect areas not wanting it to bond to. Its been too long ago fore me to remember for sure though.Last edited by thegary; 04-26-2016 at 09:51 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by thegaryI have done spray weld quite a bit but it was many years ago. The cast iron took spray weld better than most things. That said in this case I think I would only do it as a last resort but at the top of the list for cast repair of this part. What I am saying is I would try to get a different one first.  The spray weld is a mechanical bond and therefore there is a limit to its use. The nice thing about it is that it is done at similar temps to brazing and so it does not change the metallurgy like a weld would on cast iron. The strength is also similar to brazing . It is only used for build up of parts, not for connecting parts. So this application is correct. The part I do not know is if it would be prone to galling in this application. I would call Eutectic or another maker of spray powders and see if you can get some one with some first hand knowledge for this application. I do know that just like brazing the more surface contact with the original metal the stronger the bond. So If I were to do it I would prepare the part so that I had as much surface contact as possible. That might involve turning it in a lathe to chamfer the part all the way around to widen the contact area and to have the bond all the way around the part. I would also make some deep grooves in the area to give a threading effect to the bond area. This will also increase bonding area and also improve the mechanical bond. If you do it make sure you balance it with any other pistons.  After thinking about it more I would fix it with using the described prep as I stated above. It will probably cost more to fix though than buying new if you can get one. There is a lot of time investment into repairing it. I do not have a spray weld torch but I have everything else to be able to do the job. I would estimate that if you can find the right person to do it, it will take the better part of a day to prep it , spray it, then finish machine it. Who ever does it will need to have the rings available for sizing and will need to take full mic reading of everything before and after. it will defenatly be time consuming. The actual spray welding of the part will not take that long to do but there is going to be a lot of over spray and therefore a lot of machine work. I can not remember but it seems to me they make some kind of paint on coating to protect areas not wanting it to bond to. Its been too long ago fore me to remember for sure though.
Reply:Just a thought, find a company that can repair cast crankshafts and see if they can build up the piston.I believe they use a submerged arc????I'm also pretty sure you want to x-ray that piston before and after...  Before so you don't wast time on it if it has lots of internal imperfections/cracks.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:At the same place I used to do spray welding they used to buy cast iron blocks that they used for blanks to make some of their tooling. I do not know where they got it but they could get it in any diameter or other shape they wanted. Then they would machine it themselves. I would almost bet that some of the custom piston makers do the same thing. I think you could get them made by one of them. The first one is  going to be the expensive one . I do not know how many you need but if you need 4 or 6 it will probably be cost effective since they do them on cnc. The programing is where the cost is but they use an existing old piston and digitize it to make the program so it is not as expensive as you might think.. They will give you rings too.Last edited by thegary; 04-26-2016 at 09:50 PM.
Reply:Along "thegary" line of thinking, if they are that rare. Have a dozen made as there are other restorers over on the "SmokeStack" website that would probably buy them and offset your cost.
Reply:Originally Posted by thegaryI have done spray weld quite a bit but it was many years ago. The cast iron took spray weld better than most things. That said in this case I think I would only do it as a last resort but at the top of the list for cast repair of this part. What I am saying is I would try to get a different one first.  The spray weld is a mechanical bond and therefore there is a limit to its use. The nice thing about it is that it is done at similar temps to brazing and so it does not change the metallurgy like a weld would on cast iron. The strength is also similar to brazing . It is only used for build up of parts, not for connecting parts. So this application is correct. The part I do not know is if it would be prone to galling in this application. I would call Eutectic or another maker of spray powders and see if you can get some one with some first hand knowledge for this application. I do know that just like brazing the more surface contact with the original metal the stronger the bond. So If I were to do it I would prepare the part so that I had as much surface contact as possible. That might involve turning it in a lathe to chamfer the part all the way around to widen the contact area and to have the bond all the way around the part. I would also make some deep grooves in the area to give a threading effect to the bond area. This will also increase bonding area and also improve the mechanical bond. If you do it make sure you balance it with any other pistons.  After thinking about it more I would fix it with using the described prep as I stated above. It will probably cost more to fix though than buying new if you can get one. There is a lot of time investment into repairing it. I do not have a spray weld torch but I have everything else to be able to do the job. I would estimate that if you can find the right person to do it, it will take the better part of a day to prep it , spray it, then finish machine it. Who ever does it will need to have the rings available for sizing and will need to take full mic reading of everything before and after. it will defenatly be time consuming. The actual spray welding of the part will not take that long to do but there is going to be a lot of over spray and therefore a lot of machine work. I can not remember but it seems to me they make some kind of paint on coating to protect areas not wanting it to bond to. Its been too long ago fore me to remember for sure though.
Reply:Originally Posted by propanehotrodThere are many different types of metal spray. Some use oxyfuel some use a plasma arc and some are wire fed. The type of spray you are talking about is a cold process and not well suited to a piston. There are better methods but the most economical and best option is probably to have new ones made.
Reply:If you are talking about a spray that is a "mechanical bond" Then that's similar to Eutectic's Rototec "cold process" It still uses a torch but the base metal stays below 500 degrees FTheir "Hot" or "Fusion" process is similar to brazing but with much higher strength (higher than the cast iron)  and can be used for joining.Lincolin Power Wave 450, Lincoln Powermig 255, Lincoln Pro Mig 140, Lincoln Squarewave Tig 275, Miller Big 40 G(with Hobart Hefty suitcase), Thermal Arc 95S and Esab PCM875 in an already full machine shop.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWCastweld here would probably be the best to answer this question. He does a lot of iron welding and spray welding. If he doesn't chime in you might try and PM him.
Reply:I'm glad you have his contact info. I'll have to book mark this for future reference..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I've had it since I first met him a few years ago but it's on the www as well.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Brazing is a mechanical bond also.A mechanicsl bond is anything that does not melt the base metal.  Eutectic also makes spray powders that are used with a o/a torch that is not  Rototec . It is called Eutaloy . It is put on much hotter. It is still a mchanical bond it does not melt the base metal.  Now I worked with this over 25 years ago. I am not going to get in a pissing match over it . To each their own.  I have never seen it used to join parts. They may have changed things since then.   Any process that does not melt the base metal will benefit from more parent metal contact area.   If you do not want to prep it the way I suggested that fine do it the way you want to.
Reply:The strength I was talking about was the bond strength, not the actual strength of the powder alloy used. It is only going to be as strong as its weakest point and that will be the bond strength .  Rototec needs the spray all the way around the part to complete the bond and is used primarily for shaft repair where traditional welding would not work well. I am sure there are other uses for it but that is the most common one . The Eutaloy process that I was talking about does not need to be completly around the part but I suggested to do it that way to make it easier for machining ( if you ever tried to blend in a partial radius with a lathe you know what I am talking about ). The other reason was increased bond strength for a part that will be subjected to several different types of loads and pressure.   All this is mute since I think he will find that he can get them made by a custom piston maker for a more reasonable cost than to do this type of repair to multiple pistons.
Reply:I have been researching the suggestion using the JE Pistons EGGe with my Engine Builder Shop.  They are coming in at $175 each . Since we have not magaflux it (block) or ultra sound block wall for porosity yet. We at this point feel that reproduction Pistons from billet aluminum is about the most economical way to proceed , That my change but for now since I not in a rush we are proceeding with it as a fill in job for about a week till they are freed up to run more thru those processes. A note to you JE and Weisco Pistons are the same company only different letter head , I did not know that till my builder told me. Thank you all for your generous comments to help me and others , let you know more as it gets close. Amazing how a simple project turns out to be so stinking complicated .
Reply:In my experience in high performance 4 cylinder turbo applications, JE Pistons are middle to low end of the custom piston manufacturers.  CP or and Ross would be my preference if you're considering having custom pistons made.
Reply:Here are some aluminum Fordson pistons that might serve the application you're trying to match:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORDSON-FE...-/400613853656Originally Posted by 560DennisWe at this point feel that reproduction Pistons from billet aluminum is about the most economical way to proceed . . .
Reply:And don't forget what G-son pointed out about having to get the crank rebalanced by removing counterweight material if you opt for aluminum replacements which will add to overall cost.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!