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I'm wanting to learn to weld so I'm looking for a used welder at local auctions. Some new ones list the Lincoln MIGPAK 140 and similar Millermatic 140 say they can do MIG gas as well as flux core.I'd like to get a welder that will do both, mostly likely I'll use flux core to begin (not interested in stick welding at the moment) and would like the option to add a gas tank at some point because it's so much cleaner looking.I probably won't be getting a gas tank any time soon but I'd like the option to be there.My questions, are most MIG welders able to do flux core as well as gas? I'm assuming as long as they have a wire feeder they can?I see some advertise welder and feeder, don't most welders have a feeder built in? Do they really sell feeders separately from the welder?Some welders that I see coming up are an older Millermatic 250. Can that do flux core as well as gas? I'm assuming so.Since I don't know my welders and I'm standing at an auction and see a MIG welder, how can I tell if it'll do flux core, just look for a built in feeder?
Reply:Any MIG welder can also do FC welding. You just need to reverse the leads to do it, from the way they are set up to do MIG welding with a shielding gas. I have a Miller Matic 140 and the only time I have used gas shielding was when I did aluminum welding with my spoolgun. ALL of my steel welding with this machine has been with flux core wire and no gas tank attached.
Reply:Machines that can use gas will also be capable of flux core. But the reverse is not always true. The cheapest MIG machines don't have a gas solenoid and are flux core - only.To use flux core (non gas shielded) you just reverse the polarity, swap in the appropriate drive rollers if applicable, load the appropriate spool, disconnect your gas hose or just be sure the tank is off, and go to town. It takes a few minutes but it isn't that bad. I keep separate suitcase feeders on the truck, one with dual-shield and one with flux core, to eliminate fooling around with wire types on the customer's dime. I also keep a Multimatic on there, but that's neither here nor there.Just be sure that the welder you're looking at is advertised for gas and you should be fine. Feeders can be either built-in or separate, and it has nothing to do with wire type. They're usually separate on industrial multiprocess machines. A separate feeder can be quickly swapped with another which has the appropriate wire type for a new type of job you just switched to. I've been to quite a few shops that have multiple feeders for one machine. Your smaller machines will usually have a built-in feeder.Hope this helps.
Reply:Thanks guys. What about the ability to take a spool gun for aluminum? What do I look at on the machine to know it can take those. Not sure how a spool gun attaches, I'm assuming it has just a little power supply cable? Maybe look for a seperate power jack for a spool gun?
Reply:Welcome to the forum ScoFF. The answers to your questions are yes, no, sometimes and even maybe. To explain, a lot of the smaller, very inexpensive wire feeder welders are flux core only and don't have the capability or running solid wire with gas (MIG). The fact they don't have the hardware and circuitry to accommodate gas is how the manufacturers keep the cost down. Some of these machines come standard to run flux core BUT can be upgraded with an accessory field kit to add gas capabilities.The other factor that comes into play is whether or not the weld output polarity - which is DC current - can be changed as flux core requires the wire (electrode) to be (-) and MIG requires (+). Some machines do not have the ability to change weld output polarity and therefore are limited to operation with either flux core or solid wire w/gas. Even some popular big name machines are this way such as the first generation Miller Millermatic 200 (MM200) built beginning in '79 into the early 80's. Later units were designed with the ability to easily change output polarity to accommodate either wire option. Machines - be it small or larger - that come set up to do both flux core and solid wire with gas will 1) have the ability to change polarity and 2) have a connection for shielding gas (usually at the rear of the unit). The MM250 you mentioned falls into this category.As for your integral feeder question, the first MIG welders were separate power supply with separate wire feeder. Miller introduced the first combination power supply/wire feeder with the Millermatic 35 in the 70's which was designed for and marketed to body shops initially. It and its predecessor the MM200 remain two of the most popular and reliable units of their kind to this day. Separate power supplies and feeders are still produced and used in many applications. The smaller size of the separate feeder makes for better mobility in a production shop setting especially with larger, higher amperage output (300-600A) power supplies that can get rather large and heavy.Last edited by duaneb55; 04-22-2016 at 10:00 AM.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Originally Posted by ScoFFThanks guys. What about the ability to take a spool gun for aluminum? What do I look at on the machine to know it can take those. Not sure how a spool gun attaches, I'm assuming it has just a little power supply cable? Maybe look for a seperate power jack for a spool gun?
Reply:Two things to consider when running self shielded wire in a Mig welder. First is the drive rolls. With flux core you should use serrated drive rolls. V-groove drive rolls used for Mig can cut self shielded wire, and may not have the traction to push the wire. Second is the Mig gun. You may be lucky enough to run .045 self shielded wire in a regular Mig gun, but dont be surprised if it doesnt work! Self shielded wire is very stiff, and most likely will jam in a regular Mig gun. Especially when the wire gets hot.Dont pay any attention to meIm just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPTwo things to consider when running self shielded wire in a Mig welder. First is the drive rolls. With flux core you should use serrated drive rolls. V-groove drive rolls used for Mig can cut self shielded wire, and may not have the traction to push the wire. Second is the Mig gun. You may be lucky enough to run .045” self shielded wire in a regular Mig gun, but don’t be surprised if it doesn’t work! Self shielded wire is very stiff, and most likely will jam in a regular Mig gun. Especially when the wire gets hot.
Reply:Originally Posted by fpsAlso, I don't think you would really have any reason to run .045 wire with a 140 machine, as the original poster is interested in.
Reply:Originally Posted by ScoFFI'm wanting to learn to weld so I'm looking for a used welder at local auctions. Some new ones list the Lincoln MIGPAK 140 and similar Millermatic 140 say they can do MIG gas as well as flux core.I'd like to get a welder that will do both, mostly likely I'll use flux core to begin (not interested in stick welding at the moment)
Reply:Originally Posted by ScoFFThanks guys. What about the ability to take a spool gun for aluminum? What do I look at on the machine to know it can take those. Not sure how a spool gun attaches, I'm assuming it has just a little power supply cable? Maybe look for a seperate power jack for a spool gun?
Reply:I'm confused. We have a post and photo of a 120v machine weld on 1/8" aluminum using a standard mig gun with a $10 nylon liner. Then we have a post saying welding 1/8" aluminum will max out a 180 amp 230v machine. Unless the photo is showing a bead just lying on top of the aluminum with no penetration, we have a discrepancy. Which is correct?Last edited by JD1; 04-23-2016 at 08:27 AM.
Reply:It's not uncommon to have alum beads just laying on top of the material with no penetration, especially if people are used to welding steel and not alum. Most people think if the bead looks pretty, it's a good weld. In reality what they think is "pretty" is just a poor weld to those who know what they are looking at. This is very common with small migs.A few of the import companies with newer inverter welders are making some big claims about being able to weld heavier material with smaller 115v powered migs. I've yet to be convinced myself. They sound like perpetual motion or free energy machines, being able to make something out of nothing. While inverters allow you to maximize the output coming from a fixed input source, they really aren't making more power. You are limited by the power being supplied to the system.In many cases companies do all sorts of "tricks" to make their machines look better than they really are. In many cases these small machines will only make max output if you feed them from a dedicated 30 amp 115v circuit, not the typical 15 or 20 amp standard household line with other draws and possibly using an undersized extension cord. There's no way under real world conditions you'll get the results they want you to believe their machines will do. Also I've seen plenty of people who claim they know how to "weld" when they just have cold welds sitting on the surface, this includes several "well known" youtube celebrities that people like to use as examples. Many of these celebrities are getting paid by the manufacturer for showing their products in the videos, and do the best they can to make the machines look good.This subject has been beaten to death in many threads, so there's no real reason to beat it here again..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by JD1I'm confused. We have a post and photo of a 120v machine weld on 1/8" aluminum using a standard mig gun with a $10 nylon liner. Then we have a post saying welding 1/8" aluminum will max out a 180 amp 230v machine. Unless the photo is showing a bead just lying on top of the aluminum with no penetration, we have a discrepancy. Which is correct?
Reply:I can weld 1/8" using my Passport on 120v input.The Passport was put to the test at one on the Welding get together so few years back.The inverters do add some magic juice- I'm a believerEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55Check it out and you decide for yourself what you might be looking at. One needs to consider the thicker of two materials being joined so in this case the 1/4".https://www.millerwelds.com/resource...ing-calculator
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1I can weld 1/8" using my Passport on 120v input.The Passport was put to the test at one on the Welding get together so few years back.The inverters do add some magic juice- I'm a believer
Reply:Originally Posted by fpsGees, you can't have too much penetration with 1/8", or you'd be melting through the other side.
Reply:Originally Posted by JD1I went with 1/8" to use the lowest possible on their calculator. Miller says short circuit is not recommended for 1/8" or above and the calculator doesn't go below that. Spray arc is what they say to use and they're saying spray arc at 110 - 130 amps for 1/8". ESAB shows minimum spray arc amp requirements for .030 aluminum wire to be 95 amps and .046 wire to be 135 amps. (http://www.esabna.com/euweb/mig_handbook/592mig1_6.htm) So from what I'm reading it seems like small amounts of 1/8" can be done successfully with a 120v machine as long as you're using spray arc transfer? However I thought spray arc didn't start until 180 amps or above but maybe aluminum is different?
Reply:Originally Posted by JD1I went with 1/8" to use the lowest possible on their calculator. Miller says short circuit is not recommended for 1/8" or above and the calculator doesn't go below that. Spray arc is what they say to use and they're saying spray arc at 110 - 130 amps for 1/8".
Reply:Originally Posted by fpsCan we please get together and agree with something???? All us newbies would like is good information. Gees, you can't have too much penetration with 1/8", or you'd be melting through the other side.
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55First, aluminum MIG should always be spray transfer and thinner "gauge" material is just harder to do without blowing thru. Travel speed gets crazy fast on gauge thickness aluminum.No argument here on spray at 110-130A for 1/8" aluminum. Keep in mind the bead example above was a combination of 1/8" and 1/4" and I always calculate/set up for the thicker material that is going to require more heat to get adequate penetration. Note I did not question the transfer mode of the posted example and a sectional inspection or break test would determine any penetration - acceptable or not.Again, if gas, wire size, voltage and WFS all align . . . Note that the ESAB spray transfer chart states "Minimum" amperage for the given wire sizes.On a side note, obviously duty cycle quickly comes into play with the smaller machines when maxed out too.Achieving spray mode is a function of shielding gas, wire size, voltage and feed speed. One can spray .023/.025" wire and it won't be anywhere near 180A. However, using that same wire on 1/2" thick material is going to result in basically just laying a bead on the surface as penetration is a function of total heat.
Reply:POSTED BY "Site Leader"Achieving spray mode is a function of shielding gas, wire size, voltage and feed speed. One can spray .023/.025" wire and it won't be anywhere near 180A. However, using that same wire on 1/2" thick material is going to result in basically just laying a bead on the surface as penetration is a function of total heat.Finally the newbies and old pros are starting communicating. First, all many of us newbies want to do is actually weld up to maybe ¼ aluminum. We dont expect to weld 3/4 bar stock aluminum thats 10ft. long. Also, Us newbies are not expecting to weld 20 pieces of 1/8 stock 3ft. long all day long. All we want is small repair projects.In addition, I have a personal friend that owns a Welding and Fabrication shop. He probably welds only 20% to 30% during a days work. What Im saying is, even among Welding shops, some may weld all day long and others may weld 1 hour a day and rest is fabrication.So, IMO, whenever answers to posts are given, it is very helpful to Clarify the posted information as it pertains to the skill level and intentof the person asking the question.I remember racing Motocross and watched a visiting support rider lap the experts before the finish of the race. And, I remember that support rider couldnt finish in the top five in a real Pro race. Again, everything is relative including Welding.Thanks,PeteEverlast i210 with 200a spool gunEverlast i140eLOTOS LTP5000D Non-Touch Pilot Arc "Things are never so bad that they can't get worse...."
Reply:Originally Posted by fpsI have a personal friend that owns a Welding and Fabrication shop. He probably welds only 20% to 30% during a days work. What Im saying is, even among Welding shops, some may weld all day long and others may weld 1 hour a day and rest is fabrication.
Reply:A lot of people are quoting "amps" needed to weld alum. What they aren't listing is the voltage needed to do so. Miller is one of the few companies who actually print what the amp/volt curve is for their machines in the manual. Below is the amp/volt chart for the MM141. Miller's calculator is showing a voltage to spray .035 wire as 21-22v, amps of 110-130 to weld 1/8" alum. Note that while that machine will do 21-22v, it only can do that at about 80-90 amps, which backs up why they don't recommend .035 wire in their machine settings. In the 110-130 "amp" range the machine is only putting out about 17-19 volts, well below the settings suggested to spray weld 1/8" alum. Millers manual for the MM252 lists actual suggested volts under settings for 1/8" and 14 ga for alum. For .035 wire on 14 ga it lists 18.5v ( only easy place I could find a voltage listed for 14 ga material), which puts it right in the range the MM141 can produce from the amp volt chart. The suggested voltage for 1/8" is about 21v which puts it right in the voltage range suggested by their calculator. Mig is not a CC process where you set amps like with stick or tig. You don't just dial in amperage and off you go. Mig is a constant voltage process where you set your voltage and amps vary and are controlled by wire speed, stickout and so on. Just because your machine is capable of the "amps" to do something, doesn't mean it's capable of the voltage to accomplish the process at the same time.A few other things to remember. Many manuals tell you in fine print that they only make max power if run off say 30 amp 115v dedicated circuits. Run off smaller circuits, they simply won't get enough power to manage to get to maximum output. Almost no one has dedicated circuits in their house, and many don't even have 20 amp rated circuits to outlets, let alone 30 amp ones. Also keep in mind duty cycle with the machine maxed out is minimal at best. Duty cycle is more than the machine overheating. in most cases as soon as duty cycle is exceeded, weld power drops noticeably.Many of these machines that people are all hot about won't give you any solid data on the output of these machines at all in their manual. Some won't even give you a suggested settings chart. Sure they'll tell you in detail how to open and unpack a box, but there is not actual useful info in their manuals that you can use to back up their claims.https://www.millerwelds.com/files/ow...64423A_MIL.pdf.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald ReaganGreat explanation and example Doug.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWMany of these machines that people are all hot about won't give you any solid data on the output of these machines at all in their manual. Some won't even give you a suggested settings chart. Sure they'll tell you in detail how to open and unpack a box, but there is not actual useful info in their manuals that you can use to back up their claims.
Reply:Originally Posted by fpsI have not yet attempted to push the machines' limit at all.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI got to play with an Everlast i140. Did an endurance test with it on a 15-amp breaker.
Reply:Originally Posted by fpsCan I assume you completed the passes without tripping the breaker???????
Reply:Yup it burns off wire, not enough kg to fuse to base metal! I could weld up a 4" full pen with my SP -100 too but our tiny twin with 900 amps 30 lbs hr does a better job.
Reply:Originally Posted by PavinsteelmanYup it burns off wire, not enough kg to fuse to base metal! I could weld up a 4" full pen with my SP -100 too but our tiny twin with 900 amps 30 lbs hr does a better job.
Reply:Has anyone used a Millermatic 250? I think it's about 10-15 years old but is it decent if gotten for a good used price?
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWA lot of people are quoting "amps" needed to weld alum. What they aren't listing is the voltage needed to do so. ...edit...Miller is one of the few companies who actually print what the amp/volt curve is for their machines in the manual. ...edit...Just because your machine is capable of the "amps" to do something, doesn't mean it's capable of the voltage to accomplish the process at the SAME TIME....edit...Many of these machines that people are all hot about won't give you any solid data on the output of these machines at all in their manual. Some won't even give you a suggested settings chart.
Reply:Klutch MIG/Stick 220SiFor someone on a tight budget this might be the ticket for them.But this is a 240 volt and multiprocessor welder that does mig and stick with a spool gun. You could add tig torch to it latter if you wish. But at the price I think it would make a nice first welder for someone just starting to weld. here is a link to it.http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...1881_200631881.Klutch 220si mig , stick, and dc tigHobart 140 AHP ALPHA 200X 2016Lotos LTP5000DSmith O/P
Reply:Originally Posted by tinker001Klutch MIG/Stick 220SiFor someone on a tight budget this might be the ticket for them.But this is a 240 volt and multiprocessor welder that does mig and stick with a spool gun. You could add tig torch to it latter if you wish. But at the price I think it would make a nice first welder for someone just starting to weld. here is a link to it.http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...1881_200631881.
Reply:Originally Posted by fpsI bought it and returned it. The unit works fine, but the max wire speed is only a little over 300 IPM (which is the same for the spool gun) and is way below other 220v machines. If you want to run smaller wire either steel or AL, you can't take advantage of the power the unit can deliver, unless you run thick wire. It was just not for me.
Reply:Originally Posted by tinker001what size wire where you trying to run at what amp?
Reply:Well what did you expect, they spelled the name of the welder wrong...Sent from my SCH-I605 using TapatalkRyanMiller Multimatic 200 tig/spool gun/wireless remoteMillermatic 350P, Bernard/XR Python gunsMiller Dynasty 350, Coolmate 3.5 & wireless remoteCK WF1 TIG wire feederMiller Spectrum 375 XtremeOptrel e684Miller Digital EliteMiller Weld-Mask
Reply:Not so.The Airco Dipstick 160 could not use flux core.Nice machine but you couldnt change polarity. |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:07:52