Solid axle join weld

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I've got some kiln car spindle axles that are too wide a gauge and I want to shorten the axle.I'm not going to press the wheels off and knock off an end. My SB9A lathe won't handle the length and besides, the ends are precision-ground to take roller bearings (which have been removed and will be cleaned and repacked later).That leaves taking some length out of the middle of the axle, which is easy enough with my 7x12 bandsaw.Once the length is right, I need to rejoin the axle, which I believe is solid.How to rejoin the 2 sections is my question.I could hold the axle tight between 2 angle irons and tac the area to be joined, then move the angle irons a quarter turn and repeat, then remove them and weld the area (Marquette stick welder, WWII era) with 7018.If I did that, how far into the axle should the chamfer go?Perhaps that would be it, or, I could prior to welding slip a sleeve over one side of the axle, weld the split, grind the weld flat to the axle surface, move the sleeve over the weld, weld both sides of the sleeve and maybe plug weld some spots. As you can see, I'm fairly new at this and any advice would be appreciated. Attached ImagesDave VUSMC '74-'95South Bend 9A lathe 1942Marquette stick welder, oxy/acy, FCAWBuild 7/8 scale trains
Reply:What are they going to be used for??www.georgesplasmacuttershop.comPlasma Cutter and Welder Sales and Repairs--Ebay storeTec.Mo. Dealer Consumables for the PT and IPT torch's
Reply:If the Axel is round I bet it's heavy wall tubing, my uncle and I did the same thing on a Axel that was thick wall tubing. After removing the amount of Axel grind each end with a 35 degree bevel with a 1\16 land. Get everything in correct alignment and tack, make tacks on opposite sides to relieve stress as it cools. Make your root pass with 6010/6011, make your hot pass and cap with 7018. Make sure you weld on opposite sides to relieve stress, if you weld all the way around the Axel will have a bend in it from shrinkage after cooling. This is how we did it and it worked out well. IF YOU ARE NOT AN EXPERIENCED WELDER DON'T DO IT.Last edited by kctgb; 04-23-2016 at 11:04 AM.
Reply:These will be used on an agricultural and forestry railway on land I plan to purchase in the Harrisonburg VA area. Probably no more than 5mph on light 12-16# rail.I'm not an experienced welder so I'm thinking I need to get similar diameter material and practice before tackling this.Here are the other 2 kiln cars which came gauged to 2'; each weighs 600lb Attached ImagesLast edited by SE18; 04-23-2016 at 11:18 AM.Dave VUSMC '74-'95South Bend 9A lathe 1942Marquette stick welder, oxy/acy, FCAWBuild 7/8 scale trains
Reply:After looking at your picture those axles are probably solid. No disrespect to you but unless your an expert welder please don't try to tackle a job like this if there is a chance a person could get killed if your welds fail.
Reply:I'd just sleeve them and minimize the amount of warpage heat to the area.After all its only young children, nuns and puppies! HAHA!!
Reply:Wrong beer for proper welding...If you want to proceed in spite of this beer handicap, I'd grab the torch and cut at 35-45 degree angle (depends how wide you want the top).Then cut again at 35-45 degrees.  This creates a flat weld from two sides and is easier to manage with stick in my opinion.Weld, turn over, weld, turn over, repeat until done.Heat and bend straight to correct any issues after done.Look at "C"Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 04-23-2016 at 02:46 PM.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:How experienced are you with 7018?That's the biggest questionJust a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveWrong beer for proper welding...If you want to proceed in spite of this beer handicap, I'd grab the torch and cut at 35-45 degree angle (depends how wide you want the top).Then cut again at 35-45 degrees.  UThis creates a flat weld from two sides and is easier to manage with stick in my opinion.Weld, turn over, weld, turn over, repeat until done.Heat and bend straight to correct any issues after done.Look at "C"
Reply:thanks; you gave me something to chew over; I bought a box of 7018 but never before used it; I'll also need to buy a thing to prevent moisture after opening the box; I think it's called a stick ovenThe beer can is to show perspective; although 1 or 2 beers does seem to steady my hand somewhatI do have a cutting torch to do what you show in the above diagram; very helpful; I tend to ask a lot of questions, experiment, then go ahead and weldFor instance, I nickel welded this steel plate on top of my HF anvil and then nickel welded it to the weight plate; gives a nice ring; looked up how to do it, so I think I can learn from asking a lot of questions and looking stuff upI also managed to straighten the frame on this 30" gauge car by cutting little triangles out on the stress points and using a screw jack (the hydraulic jack leaked all over the driveway when I turned it sideways); asked my neighbor for suggestionsThe guy at my local brick kiln will give me about 4 of these axles and wheels for $150 so I have more to cut down; these are 48" gaugeThe HOA and neighbors aren't too happy with me welding and putting all this stuff in my driveway so you can imagine how happy I'll be to get away from this area Attached ImagesLast edited by SE18; 04-23-2016 at 04:29 PM.Dave VUSMC '74-'95South Bend 9A lathe 1942Marquette stick welder, oxy/acy, FCAWBuild 7/8 scale trains
Reply:so the next thing we are going to hear is that you want to put a engine on these thing so you can go both ways..Klutch 220si mig , stick, and dc tigHobart 140 AHP ALPHA 200X 2016Lotos LTP5000DSmith O/P
Reply:For that application I personally wouldn't bother trying to butt weld them back together. The shafts are going to be some kind of heavy wall tube, just cut to length and put a tight slip fit sleeve over the joint of the same wall thickness, it's self jigging and weld it up.RyanMiller Multimatic 200 tig/spool gun/wireless remoteMillermatic 350P, Bernard/XR Python gunsMiller Dynasty 350, Coolmate 3.5 & wireless remoteCK WF1 TIG wire feederMiller Spectrum 375 XtremeOptrel e684Miller Digital EliteMiller Weld-Mask
Reply:If there is a camber in the axle. I would make a cardboard or sheet metal template of the camber first. Cut the axle to length, bevel, and grind a land. Weld it up. Take your rose bud and put the camber back in the axle.  Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:It would be interesting to know if the axle is solid or made of heavy wall tube. Hope you post pictures of how the axle is made.
Reply:I'll cut it today, perhaps and post a photo; since I'm curious too nowThose photos just posted btw are helpful, but if it's solid, I don't know if the procedure is the same or needs go deeper.So the sum total of the sleeve should equal the thickness of the axleDave VUSMC '74-'95South Bend 9A lathe 1942Marquette stick welder, oxy/acy, FCAWBuild 7/8 scale trains
Reply:I wouldent attempt to weld them, bore 5/8' - 3/4" wall x 12" long heavy wall tube so it will just slip over the axel. With a cut off wheel slice the tube almost all the way thru length wise grind a vee for welding to bottom of slice, rotate 180 and do the same, slip each half of axel in half way and weld vee's. if done right the welding will shrink the tube so it will never come loose and gives you alignment of the two axel pieces.
Reply:I believe it will be solid as I've never seen a railroad cart that didn't use a solid axle, but it will be interesting to see for sure. If it is solid you need to get full penetration to keep the structural integrity.JonYeah, I know, but it'll be ok!Lincoln Square wave 255Miller Vintage mig30a spoolgunThermal Dynamics Pacmaster 100xl plasmaSmith mc torchEllis 1600 band saw
Reply:Ok, 1 7/8 inches of solid axle; so now before I make the second cut to regauge the axle, what do I do?Go ahead and take the next chunk out to size , right?Then what?CEP's nice photos won't do the trick b/c if I camber only as far as he did, the center will be unwelded.Do I take out the next chunk and then use a grinder to chamber?Btw, Minnesotta Dave , looks like he's suggesting double V groove. Would the Vs touch?And, do they make sleeves that would fit 1 7/8? I don't yet have my boring bar.I'm stopping until I get some advice. Thanks!! Attached ImagesLast edited by SE18; 04-24-2016 at 03:03 PM.Dave VUSMC '74-'95South Bend 9A lathe 1942Marquette stick welder, oxy/acy, FCAWBuild 7/8 scale trains
Reply:Can you fit the pieces in your lathe? if so bore on piece with 1.250  hole 4 inches deep, the machine the other piece to 1.253. Chamfer the shoulders on both pieces. Heat the piece your bored out to 1.255 and slip the other piece in to the shoulder then weld up.Mike
Reply:Originally Posted by SE18And, do they make sleeves that would fit 1 7/8? I don't yet have my boring bar.
Reply:Mike, that sound like a plan but there's just 9" bed clearance and I'd rather not press off all the wheels (I'll be using the plan with multiple wheelsets in the future)Here's another shot of the cutting operation which too about a minute Attached ImagesDave VUSMC '74-'95South Bend 9A lathe 1942Marquette stick welder, oxy/acy, FCAWBuild 7/8 scale trains
Reply:Thanks Chris, I'm thinking black pipe would weld good. I'll check my plumbing supply; I think someone suggested plugs so to do that I guess I'd drill some holes in the pipe.So here's my plan.1. Grind double V2. Fill with 6011, top with 70183. Grind or file flat OD of axle to accept sleeve4. push sleeve over weld (maybe some grease to get it moving?)5. Weld and plug weld sleeveIf I get the SOP down, I can repeat without thinkingDave VUSMC '74-'95South Bend 9A lathe 1942Marquette stick welder, oxy/acy, FCAWBuild 7/8 scale trains
Reply:Yes, a double v groove is common for thick metal.  There is usually a small gap to get full penetration.Weld the gap, flip and hit with a grinder to clean up the backside - then weld right to the 1st weld.Now you have full penetration and as you build out from the center it will become one piece again with a full thickness weld.No sleeve needed.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Thanks Dave,I've got a business trip this entire week to Atlanta so I'm thinking in 2 more weeks I can continue this and post photos and see other responses.Your idea sound good. Guess I'd need to use V angle to align the 2 sides of the axle and then build up between the axles then rotate the vs to hit the other partDave VUSMC '74-'95South Bend 9A lathe 1942Marquette stick welder, oxy/acy, FCAWBuild 7/8 scale trains
Reply:Even if you weld opposite sides like others mentioned, you can still get it pulling out of alignment. The best way to get it straight as possible is if you can rig up a rotator, or set it in a piece of stationary angle iron and have someone roll it smoothly for you as you make one complete pass. Then start/finish 180 degrees out from your last start and stop. If you do one side, you are only putting heat on that one side, and doing the other side does limit the pull, but it's still pulling while it's cooling until you jump to the other side. Going all the way around in one pass puts heat through the entire circumference, AND you'll be able to keep a flat position weld the entire time. Or if you feel up to it, weld it in the 2G position (horizontal weld) and try to walk it around in one pass. Either way, if you aren't that experienced, your best bet is to keep the weld position the same through the whole weld so you have even beads and hopefully with smooth, even motion you'll have more even heat distribution.Can you cut the wheel off the end of the axle and bore it out to accept the cut down axle?
Reply:A good way to v it would be to set your saw at 30-45° and take a chunk off each side leaving about 1/4" in the middle. Since there is no need to maintain rotational axis you can just do both sides and they should match up good in the middle. Then you can either do as Dave said and leave a gap or just put it together tight and weld one side then grind from the other til you get to your weld. Then of you weld on alternating sides andbwatch for pulling you should be able to get a pretty decent job done. If it's off a little then use some heat to straighten it.JonYeah, I know, but it'll be ok!Lincoln Square wave 255Miller Vintage mig30a spoolgunThermal Dynamics Pacmaster 100xl plasmaSmith mc torchEllis 1600 band saw
Reply:Originally Posted by SE18These will be used on an agricultural and forestry railway on land I plan to purchase in the Harrisonburg VA area. Probably no more than 5mph on light 12-16# rail.
Reply:If you can put the 2 pieces on 4 saw horse, 2 for each piece, that are all straight and level and square to each other. You weld a small 3/4" round stock 6" long at the butt end to hang your ground. Then you just push and roll the whole piece while you weld for a full revolution, chip the slag, clean  with a wire wheel. Roll back and start again for a full revolution, on and on till it's all filled. No need for a sleeve. This thing will be rock solid and straight as an arrow.I've done 100's of cylinder eyes that we replace the shaft and weld on the old eye with a J-groove on the shaft the width of about 3 to 4 rods.Those cylinder rods were from excavators,  loaders, dozers etc...Myself I  used a double rolls jig set up and just rolled it on it.Works like a charm.
Reply:Did my first axle shorteningMistake cut too short so added a section cut out, welded up with 6011Probably would have held but added a thick sleeve got at BMG metalsRan true before the sleeve and afterThere most likely miniscule wobble but didn't detect any at allI don't think I'd do this to a car axle unless I had a death wish Attached ImagesDave VUSMC '74-'95South Bend 9A lathe 1942Marquette stick welder, oxy/acy, FCAWBuild 7/8 scale trains
Reply:i hate to criticize another man's work but are you sure those welds are all they can be? on the left hand pic 12/1 o'clock the weld looks like it's not grabbing to the axle. good job of making it run true though.Last edited by docwelder; 05-01-2016 at 09:02 PM.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:I doubt the welds are good or even fair, though I tried my best.On the next axle splice, I'll make a few changes. I'll splice it center (hopefully with no mistakes) and get a better V shape instead of half a V shape and that will allow me to build more weld beads.The other change I'll make is to weld flat tabs on the angle iron and possibly on the axle to hold the clamps. It was difficult to clamp the whole thing into the angle iron.The other change I'll make concerns the sleeve. Before welding the ends like I did this time, I'll grind a trough lengthwise almost but not thru the sleeve. Then, I'll run a bead inside that trough. The purpose of that exercise is to force the sleeve closed on the axle thru heat. The axle is 1 and 7/8" and the ID of the sleeve is 1.939. There's a bit of play I'm not comfortable with. After doing that I'll spin the axle as I weld, which I did this time.The only stick I used on this was 6011. If it were a car, there would have been 7018 as well, but I'm sure you would not want to trust your life to a weld job I did.Dave VUSMC '74-'95South Bend 9A lathe 1942Marquette stick welder, oxy/acy, FCAWBuild 7/8 scale trains
Reply:Your not going to get the sleeve to shrink .065 by that method. If you are going to do this why do a botched up job of it?Last edited by lars66; 05-02-2016 at 09:31 AM.
Reply:OK, thanks for the tip on the sleeve shrink. I can always still drill some holes to plug weld but between the sleeve and the weld, if experts call it that, I think it will be fine for what its intended purpose is; slo-moDave VUSMC '74-'95South Bend 9A lathe 1942Marquette stick welder, oxy/acy, FCAWBuild 7/8 scale trains
Reply:Any reason you're butt splicing these rather than just taking the wheel off, cutting the axle down and putting the wheel back on the axle end?
Reply:my lathe won't handle the lengthDave VUSMC '74-'95South Bend 9A lathe 1942Marquette stick welder, oxy/acy, FCAWBuild 7/8 scale trains