Bad news for Little Red

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Multiple people have mentioned in threads and PMed me about how they like my welding truck, an "89 GMC, 4x4. It's been my favorite truck ever and gotten me in and back out of some bad places to make me money. I have it set up to haul just about any material and it is so nice to work off of. That came to a halt day before yesterday. I left my place to go help a friend with broken plumbing. I got to the first curve on our county road and met some kid in a little car in my lane. I left the road and hit the end of a concrete culvert. It knocked the right side of the front axle back about a foot and blew both front tires. The front drive shaft went up into the bell housing and transmission, knocking big chunks out of both of them. One end of one leaf spring hung the culvert and bent it in a tight U shape. Didn't hurt me very bad, sore back and arm and that's about it.I have a mechanic friend coming out to look at it to see if it's worth fixing and about how much it will cost. Been debating with myself if I should just let it go or fix it. I hate letting it go because I would lose the A frame. I use it almost every day and can't see not having it. Guess we'll se how much it will cost. Attached Images
Reply:Wow Bob, that does not sound like a fun ride at all. Glad you where not seriously hurt. Hopefully the other driver stopped. Looking at the picture I would it would be better to swap the bed to a newer truck.Mike
Reply:Main thing......you weren't injured.  Everything else will get right with time.  I don't see much hope for the truck if the frame is damaged.
Reply:Glad you’re not hurt.  Easy fix bud.  If you get a newer truck you’re not gonna like it lol. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:Sad day I’m glad your ok and that’s an awesome pickup just know it has a little brother out there!  You’ll get her up and running Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:That sucks, if the frame is ok Id just start finding all the parts to make it right again. For myself I usually ignore body damage on a work truck as long as the door opens Id be fine.On the other side of the coin This would be a great opportunity to start over with another truck and just swap the bed. A friend of mine just found this one a few months ago. He has since repainted the body and added new tires and a new flatbed. It is for sale btw.Lincolin Power Wave 450, Lincoln Powermig 255, Lincoln Pro Mig 140, Lincoln Squarewave Tig 275, Miller Big 40 G(with Hobart Hefty suitcase), Thermal Arc 95S and Esab PCM875 in an already full machine shop.
Reply:Glad to hear you weren't hurt too badly I'd swap the bed to a nicer '89 square body A few decades ago I build a roll-back wrecker out of a 1 ton square body.  It was nice to drive Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmMain thing......you weren't injured.  Everything else will get right with time.  I don't see much hope for the truck if the frame is damaged.
Reply:Originally Posted by CAVEMANNFrame damage ain't the problem it used to be, modern frame machines use lasers to get correct measurements & corrections.
Reply:Sorry I haven't replied. Had a trip to the hunting ranch to fix plumbing problems from the ice storm. The truck in the picture that the hotrod posted is only the third one like mine that I have seen. These trucks are pretty rare. There was 3 bed lengths and 3 bed width available and mine and these other two are the ones with the shortest and narrowest beds. Even with duals they are not any wider than a regular pickup truck. I was so happy to find this one because at the time I was doing a lot of work for all the horse farms around here (I wised up after a few years) and it was so much easier to get it into all the tight spots in those barns. All 3 that I know of were red in color.
Reply:It's awesome that you weren't hurt or not hurt badly, Trucks are nothing, things can be modified to fit, the truck can get some mode of needed, you walked away and that's what matters. BEST WISHES on finding a bolt-on Truck for your bed if you decide not to fix the truck you have.IMPEACH BIDEN!NRA LIFE MEMBERUNITWELD 175 AMP 3 IN1 DCMIDSTATES 300 AMP AC MACHINEGOD HELP AMERICA!“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream".RONALD REAGAN
Reply:Hey neighbor!I can only give you my opinion based on what I know about you.Your last comment pretty much confirms my guess that you would not be happy with anything else!If it were me I would fix it.What are the odds of finding another with the same rear axle width and wheelbase in any reasonable condition?Even if you could find one it would be more work "making it your way" than repairing yours!Just my opinion and it is worth every penny you paid for it!
Reply:Well, the good news is that the rare back axle is still good. I can pretty much guarantee you have frame damage. As others have mentioned, it is repairable, but it won't be cheap. My vote is to swap your axle and front gears onto a better truck. A few inches of wheelbase won't make much difference and you could always squeeze another shelf or something onto the front of the deck.250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Funny how they build these trucks.I bought my F-350 because it was the "cab and chassis' model.  Narrower than the duallies.  I don't like a wide bed, it's dangerous.The bed on the F-350 is 90" wide.  I built my little flatbed trailer to measure 94" wide.  I hated pulling 102's back in the day when I still drove a truck.  The lanes on most secondary roads won't safely handle 102's.  Takes constant concentration to keep it between the lines.
Reply:Just go price a new one.That help you decide If you just think of payments only 72 back breakers. Miss one payment your on feet again. Dave  Originally Posted by BobMultiple people have mentioned in threads and PMed me about how they like my welding truck, an "89 GMC, 4x4. It's been my favorite truck ever and gotten me in and back out of some bad places to make me money. I have it set up to haul just about any material and it is so nice to work off of. That came to a halt day before yesterday. I left my place to go help a friend with broken plumbing. I got to the first curve on our county road and met some kid in a little car in my lane. I left the road and hit the end of a concrete culvert. It knocked the right side of the front axle back about a foot and blew both front tires. The front drive shaft went up into the bell housing and transmission, knocking big chunks out of both of them. One end of one leaf spring hung the culvert and bent it in a tight U shape. Didn't hurt me very bad, sore back and arm and that's about it.I have a mechanic friend coming out to look at it to see if it's worth fixing and about how much it will cost. Been debating with myself if I should just let it go or fix it. I hate letting it go because I would lose the A frame. I use it almost every day and can't see not having it. Guess we'll se how much it will cost.
Reply:There's a group of Chevy truck aficionados up here with a swap meet in June: https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/pts...287418360.htmlMaybe there's one in your area.
Reply:Originally Posted by BobThe truck in the picture that the hotrod posted is only the third one like mine that I have seen. These trucks are pretty rare.
Reply:I'm amazed at southern trucks. Your 89 would be a treasure in VT. Seeing a faded beauty like that up north is rare. Up here, the State slobbers the roads with salt brine every night. Several years now they don't wait for snow, if there is any chance temperature might fall below 32 degrees, they brine the roads.89 trucks do not look that nice up here.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:If you do swap trucks, and end up with one '99 or newer with an LS engine,, you will be Sooooo happy,,,I went from an '87 Chevy with a 350,, to a 3/4 ton with the 6.0 engine,, literally, the 6.0 feels like it has twice the power.I now own two trucks with the 6.0 engine, they are amazing to drive,, I do have the 4.10 axle ratio in both,, that does help,,,
Reply:Hmmmmmmmmm,, you could cut the bed and frame off of your truck right behind the cab,,then, fab the part behind the cab into a gooseneck trailer,,THEN,, you could pull it around with a Toyota,, problem solved!! and you get to keep the rear axle,,,
Reply:what's the update on the truck?
Reply:Originally Posted by SweetMKIf you do swap trucks, and end up with one '99 or newer with an LS engine,, you will be Sooooo happy,,,I went from an '87 Chevy with a 350,, to a 3/4 ton with the 6.0 engine,, literally, the 6.0 feels like it has twice the power.I now own two trucks with the 6.0 engine, they are amazing to drive,, I do have the 4.10 axle ratio in both,, that does help,,,
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BIn the day, my friend had a 1990 crew cab 8' Chevy 3500 with 454. I had a 2500 van with a basic 350. Me loaded, likely weighing over 8000, him empty, but towing a 500LB boat trailer, I passed him on a hill on interstate highway. He was giving the old pig all the accelerator it had!He hated that engine! Said it was a dog & claimed 6 to 7 MPG.
Reply:Originally Posted by 12V71Not sure if it applied to the 90's fuel injected 454s, but the ones from the mid 80's with carbs had some serious issues with HEI distributor advance curves. My 86 was breaking exhaust manifolds left and right, took it to a tune guy to have the carb done and he said he was pulling the distributor and checking it on his machine first. He reset the centrifugal weights and put an adjustable vacuum unit in and it made a huge difference in power and fuel mileage. Totally different truck, I'm not a gas guy, but he made it so simple. If he was still with us I would have him do the same for my motorhome. The motorhome does good though for being 14,000 LBS  power wise and 7.2 MPG isn't bad.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BDo you not have a V10?Between us, Seth & I have two GM 6 liter gas jobs in an 8600 LB van & a 9500 LB pickup. Long trip fuel economy is 16 to 17, 9.5 with a 6000 LB travel trailer, and no shortage of power! I wish I had a gas 6 liter in the Top Kick. The 6 liter gas engines have 50% more horsepower than the 10.4 Turbo diesel in it.Originally Posted by 12V71Yes, my F250 has the V10, the motorhome has a carbureted 454. The F250 is a retired work truck and gets around 14-15 MPG on long trips, I figured that spending a little more on gas was better than new payments.  Regarding that little CAT in your Topkick I think you would be much happier with a small 10 speed Roadranger behind it. That would give you about a 250 rpm split between gears. That's what I have in my F800 with the 7.8L Ford engine at 210 HP. Seems to be a good combination on hills. Your 4 speed Allison just doesn't have enough split for hilly terrain.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BYes, Yes, and YES!! I fear that it isn't a simple change for me. The individual qualified to make that change is several states away. I have pondered the impossibility of a bigger engine, a better transmission. In VT the stock answer is "I don't work on antiques."Fact: 3208    is not an engine anyone would look for. Allison transmissions are better if more recent. I would be happy if I could tow a backhoe up a steep hill (I don't care how fast). I took it out empty 40 miles this morning. It was a pleasure! Lots of shiver!!! I'm trying to understand what causes it. I accelerate empty, it is severe. I climb a steep hill, I don't detect a change. Loaded or empty, it might be severe.Today, I experimented, Neutral using only brakes on a steep downhill, it seems most severe. Last trip empty up the steepest hill I know, it shivered severely!Maybe trucks are undriveable! I've posed the question to many, ALL just shrug their shoulders.
Reply:Originally Posted by 12V71I'm still leaning toward the driveline issue on your truck. It could be that the driveline that replaced the fire pump PTO may have a yoke or splined end for the carrier bearing that was not welded square. I've seen it happen. If we weren't on opposite ends of the country, I would love to drive it and see what I feel.  The 3208 is becoming obsolete but there really isn't a better replacement in that Topkick chassis, I did replace one in a big Ford Louisville once with a 6V-92 Detroit years ago It was a pretty easy swap and got the truck up to 335 HP. But it did have a drivetrain that would take the extra power.
Reply:Originally Posted by 12V71I'm still leaning toward the driveline issue on your truck. It could be that the driveline that replaced the fire pump PTO may have a yoke or splined end for the carrier bearing that was not welded square. I've seen it happen. If we weren't on opposite ends of the country, I would love to drive it and see what I feel.  The 3208 is becoming obsolete but there really isn't a better replacement in that Topkick chassis, I did replace one in a big Ford Louisville once with a 6V-92 Detroit years ago It was a pretty easy swap and got the truck up to 335 HP. But it did have a drivetrain that would take the extra power.
Reply:Originally Posted by 12V71I'm still leaning toward the driveline issue on your truck. It could be that the driveline that replaced the fire pump PTO may have a yoke or splined end for the carrier bearing that was not welded square. I've seen it happen. If we weren't on opposite ends of the country, I would love to drive it and see what I feel.  The 3208 is becoming obsolete but there really isn't a better replacement in that Topkick chassis, I did replace one in a big Ford Louisville once with a 6V-92 Detroit years ago It was a pretty easy swap and got the truck up to 335 HP. But it did have a drivetrain that would take the extra power.
Reply:A new revelation:Seth found a Spicer driveshaft manual. It describes a set up very different from what I have. My installation has the carrier bearing mounted in line with the cross joints at transmission, and rear pinion. The center Universal joint has no angle, that changes slightly as the axle moves up & down reacting to load or bumps.Spicer says front shaft should be 1 to 1.5 degree angle from the transmission shaft. The pinion should be parallel with this first section of driveshaft. The rear section of driveshaft will then have equal universal angles.The 1 to 1-1/2 degree front universal will then contribute little oscillation. The middle joint will induce some oscillation to the rear shaft. The rear universal will induce oscillation equal & opposite to the middle, cancelling the effect to the pinion. As it is, I have perhaps 100 LB of combined weight revolving. 90 degrees it accelerates, next 90 it decelerates, next 90 it accelerates,  next 90 it decelerates, then the process repeats. My logic says even though transmission & pinion do not oscillate, 100 LBS of shaft will set up quite a vibration.Using Spicer's technique would reduce the oscillating weight to maybe 1/3 what it is now. I'm only thinking out loud at this point. I'll have to remount the carrier bearing & install the driveshaft assembly to know.How do I best change the pinion angle? are tapered shims available for the Spring to axle attachment?Last edited by Willie B; 04-02-2021 at 08:06 AM.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BA new revelation:Seth found a Spicer driveshaft manual. It describes a set up very different from what I have. My installation has the carrier bearing mounted in line with the cross joints at transmission, and rear pinion. The center Universal joint has no angle, that changes slightly as the axle moves up & down reacting to load or bumps.Spicer says front shaft should be 1 to 1.5 degree angle from the transmission shaft. The pinion should be parallel with this first section of driveshaft. The rear section of driveshaft will then have equal universal angles.The 1 to 1-1/2 degree front universal will then contribute little oscillation. The middle joint will induce some oscillation to the rear shaft. The rear universal will induce oscillation equal & opposite to the middle, cancelling the effect to the pinion. As it is, I have perhaps 100 LB of combined weight revolving. 90 degrees it accelerates, next 90 it decelerates, next 90 it accelerates,  next 90 it decelerates, then the process repeats. My logic says even though transmission & pinion do not oscillate, 100 LBS of shaft will set up quite a vibration.Using Spicer's technique would reduce the oscillating weight to maybe 1/3 what it is now. I'm only thinking out loud at this point. I'll have to remount the carrier bearing & install the driveshaft assembly to know.How do I best change the pinion angle? are tapered shims available for the Spring to axle attachment?
Reply:You should be able to get steer axle caster shims to work. Any shop that does heavy truck alignment will have them.
Reply:Originally Posted by 12V71You should be able to get steer axle caster shims to work. Any shop that does heavy truck alignment will have them.
Reply:Shocks will have zero affect on your vibration problems, the ride , yes. You shouldn't need shims on top of the spring pack, just between axle pad and spring.Miller xmt304,  Miller S22 p12, Miier Maxstar SD, Miller 252 w 30A, Miller super32p12, Lincoln Ranger 9, Thermal Arc 181I with spoolgun, Hypertherm 10000 ,Smith torches. Esab 161lts miniarc.
Reply:I have to think on this awhile. I have taken almost a full 8' out of the frame of a couple of trucks on air suspension and never messed around with pinion angles. Those had 2 carrier bearings before we cut them down, I had new drivelines built by a driveline specialist at the maximum length for a slipspline driveline and never had any vibration issues. I did drop the carrier bearing 2" lower than the originals that were directly in line with the transmission output yoke. On the other hand I've shortened a bunch of trucks too and usually try to take the excess length out of the carrier driveline.  Most big trucks only use shock absorbers on air ride axles. Leafs, walking beams, or other types of mechanical suspensions don't use them.
Reply:Originally Posted by 12V71I have to think on this awhile. I have taken almost a full 8' out of the frame of a couple of trucks on air suspension and never messed around with pinion angles. Those had 2 carrier bearings before we cut them down, I had new drivelines built by a driveline specialist at the maximum length for a slipspline driveline and never had any vibration issues. I did drop the carrier bearing 2" lower than the originals that were directly in line with the transmission output yoke. On the other hand I've shortened a bunch of trucks too and usually try to take the excess length out of the carrier driveline.  Most big trucks only use shock absorbers on air ride axles. Leafs, walking beams, or other types of mechanical suspensions don't use them.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BI'll guess the sandwich the U bolts hold should be parallel. I'll put tapered shims above & below the axle?The driveshaft shop seemed like they had landed from another planet. They understood symmetry and balance. Phasing & correct driveline angles seemed to confuse him. He agreed that transmission output and pinion input angles need to match but I need some angle in the middle cross joint. He wanted me to talk to Travis in service.Travis seemed OK either way. His priority was that the center U joint had to have some angle, otherwise all is good.I'm trying to figure out what changed. I bought a truck that drove fine. A very short shaft had two u joints with (I will now guess) parallel angles. This drove a monster fire pump (1200 GPM). From the rear of the pump, a short shaft led to a carrier bearing. Behind the carrier bearing was another U joint, then a spline slip joint. This was an E1 fire truck. I hope they thought this through. Since  most changes that might have been caused by me or people I paid. I try to think where it happened. On advice of trusted people I've put six new wheels & tires, all new brakes. Took the tires back to have them balanced. I knew the driveshaft was where things had changed most. The fire pump was no longer in the driveline and the 7000LB body was no longer there, 8000 LBS of water are removed. Also, the wheelbase has changed about a foot, New rear springs, and spring mounts are in place. The shop in Milton said the shaft was welded .055" off center on one end. He said all U joints & the carrier bearing was bad. One of these U joints has fewer than 100 miles, so I'm skeptical about this. Still another thought; I'm seeing trucks much heavier with rear shock absorbers. This one didn't have any, should it? As a fire truck it lost 8000 LBS on its way back to the fire house, otherwise it was loaded all the time.I'm going to mount it as it was. If a problem persists, I'll raise the carrier bearing to where it is 1 to 1-1/2 degree different from the transmission output shaft. I expect tilting the pinion up to match the front shaft angle will create rear U joint angles too sharp. Spicer specifies "not more than 5.8 degrees at 3000 RPM"I'm in some limbo, this thing simply can't work.
Reply:I've run, owned, worked on a great many driveshafts, but this my first coloring outside the lines. Everything up to now has been using engineered stuff. This truck has been shortened about a foot, and the fire pump removed. The man who put it together seemed pretty knowledgeable, and he suggested the same machine shop I was going to take it to. This shop is a two man operation. The owner recently died (early sixties), his apprentice took over. These people have rebuilt several antique engines for me, all were flawless.I'm surprised there was a problem. When I picked it up I asked about balance. Matt Answered that he, and Jack before him were super careful to keep everything straight & true, never had a vibration.It's a long haul to a competent driveshaft builder/installer. It looks like I should have gone there in the first place. Several local truck shops didn't even know how to properly phase it.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Well... all the "experts" thought my old Dodge driveshaft should be timed the same as the semi's... it wasn't.Splines can look so pretty when you "unravel" them...250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Those splines look like something for the blacksmith and forging section!
Reply:May need to do a little welding. That is a easy fix all to do is buy the spline from internet a little grinding and welding under 2 hours. DaveIf need more information just let me know.You do not need lathe for that fix. Originally Posted by whtbaronWell... all the "experts" thought my old Dodge driveshaft should be timed the same as the semi's... it wasn't.Splines can look so pretty when you "unravel" them...
Reply:Originally Posted by smithdoorMay need to do a little welding. That is a easy fix all to do is buy the spline from internet a little grinding and welding under 2 hours. DaveIf need more information just let me know.You do not need lathe for that fix.
Reply:Originally Posted by arcflashThose splines look like something for the blacksmith and forging section!
Reply:Any ideas on what finally happened to Little Red... since the thread got hijacked with drive shafts??
Reply:Originally Posted by shortfuseAny ideas on what finally happened to Little Red... since the thread got hijacked with drive shafts??
Reply:Lord Iiiii apologize, & be with the starving Pygmies down in New Guinea.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Originally Posted by PipelinerI'm just seeing this whole thread.  As the owner of an 81' K20 square for the past 27 years and a couple of hundo thousand miles, my opinion will be slanted.  BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!! I say that doesn't sound like terrible fix even if there is some frame work involved.  These trucks have gone from dime a dozen $1500-$2500 trucks on every lot / front yard in town to HOLY CRAP BATMAN!!!  Fix it right and you'll get your money back at the end of the day if you ever decide to part ways with it. Seriously - fix it!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by shortfuseAny ideas on what finally happened to Little Red... since the thread got hijacked with drive shafts??
Reply:If could find one or the price was to high.I have replaced bith ends male and female At resort  I would just make new spline,. Dave Originally Posted by whtbaronDreamer... that driveshaft was tied up like a pretzel. The reason it's so rusty is because it was all replaced with new parts and tossed on the scrap heap where it belongs. I've had one let go at 70 mph going down a steep grade with a full load of wet wheat on with traffic going both ways. I have no desire to give a repeat performance. And old Dodge splines are not easy to find.