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Hey guys I'm new the forum. This will be my first post. I'd like to start by saying thank you in advance. I am an amateur welder/hobbiest. I just got my father's day present early....my first 220v mig welder. My daughter spilled the beans so my wife gave it to me. It's a Lincoln WeldPak 180. I had an older Lincoln 110v mig welder. There is an old dryer outlet in the garage and here is how it's wired. The 180 recommends a 40a breaker so I already replaced that, and I replaced the receptacle with the correct one. From the main panel there is 6/3 wire, about 75-80ft, to a junction box. From that box there is 10/3, about 25-30ft, to the receptacle. They only use the 2 110v wires and one common wire, is this correct or should I have 2 grounds? The other wire is just taped up out of the way. Thanks again. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:The receptacle should be wired:Line 1 120v (110) BlackLine 2 120v (110) RedGROUND. Green.Do not use the Neutral, which I think you are calling the common. The white wire.Welcome to the forum.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:O ya, I also want to specify that the 6/3 wire coming in the junction box is not powering anything else. There are 3 bonding lugs in the box and the 6/3 wire is connected directly to the 10/3 wire, nothing else. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Ya sorry, I'm not electrician. I know what I mean, but I sometimes get the wording wrong. Is the 10/3 heavy enough for that welder?Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by mberta2Hey guys I'm new the forum. This will be my first post. I'd like to start by saying thank you in advance. I am an amateur welder/hobbiest. I just got my father's day present early....my first 220v mig welder. My daughter spilled the beans so my wife gave it to me. It's a Lincoln WeldPak 180. I had an older Lincoln 110v mig welder. There is an old dryer outlet in the garage and here is how it's wired. The 180 recommends a 40a breaker so I already replaced that, and I replaced the receptacle with the correct one. From the main panel there is 6/3 wire, about 75-80ft, to a junction box. From that box there is 10/3, about 25-30ft, to the receptacle. They only use the 2 110v wires and one common wire, is this correct or should I have 2 grounds? The other wire is just taped up out of the way. Thanks again. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:So would I be better off to make the section of wire from the junction to the receptacle 8? Does the Lincoln weld Pak 180 really need the 40a or could I get by with the 30a that was there for the dryer? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Charley horse- there are exceptions to the rule and dedicated circuits for welding machines is one.Due to the duty cycle of the welding machine a bigger CB can be used with smaller than "normal" wires.(the wire in the power cord is probably 12g)For normal or shared circuits then 30amp CB would be used with the 10g wire.It is easier just to keep it simple and match the wire gauge to the wire.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Yes broccoli1, this will be a dedicated circuit. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Might be inclined to instal a sub panel instead of the junction box. Not sure how many 120v receptacles you have but the 6/3 is plenty to feed a sub-panel and then feed your extra circuits right out of it.Of course, easy to spend your money It's fine for now but you do have the option for future.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:So just to verify, the setup as it is now (40a CB, 6/3 to junction, 10/3 to receptacle, and the correct receptacle for the Lincoln 180) is going to work for me as long as it is dedicated for the welder only? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by mberta2So just to verify, the setup as it is now (40a CB, 6/3 to junction, 10/3 to receptacle, and the correct receptacle for the Lincoln 180) is going to work for me as long as it is dedicated for the welder only? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Thank you very much. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Charley horse- there are exceptions to the rule and dedicated circuits for welding machines is one...
Reply:I really have no problem changing the 10 gauge wire over to 8 gauge wire if you guys think it's safer. I understand what your saying Oldendum. Who's to say that someone else might not come over and try to plug something else into that outlet, or if I sell the house, (which i never plan on doing haha) how will the new owners know that outlet is for a welder only? It's worth the $100 to be safe I guess. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:You can switch back to a lower breaker amperage if you leave. Even if you label the outlet "welder only", what's that mean, really? If you have a hardwired disconnect box, the next guy had to have monkeyed with the wiring to connect anything. Thus his problem. Or so it should be."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:Your duty cycle is essential information for a correct answer. WillieAn optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:I have actually been thinking about moving the outlet to a wall closer to the door anyway so if I do that, I will just switch over to 8 gauge. Since I only need to use 3 wires (120v, 120v, neutral), could I buy 8/2 wire? Or can I not use the bare wire for the neutral? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by mberta2I have actually been thinking about moving the outlet to a wall closer to the door anyway so if I do that, I will just switch over to 8 gauge. Since I only need to use 3 wires (120v, 120v, neutral), could I buy 8/2 wire? Or can I not use the bare wire for the neutral? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Right but in the case of a 6-50 there is no neutral.Eventual master of the obvious, practitioner of "stream of consciousness fabrication". P.S. I edit almost every post because because I'm posting from my phone and my fingers sometimes move faster than my brain.
Reply:Interesting and surprising to me, I got a mig pack 180 from cdn tire in Canada last November 2015 . The plug wire for the welder was 14 guage.. Big heavy 220 plug on light wire...I called Lincon and they told me that was the spec ...due to the duty cycle...BUT it should have a 220v 40amp feed. ???? I returned it and bought a 140... 110 v machine 20 amp on a 12 guage wire feed...Confused. I guess!!!!!
Reply:I am not an electrician, but by all standards I am familiar with 10 gauge is rated for 30 amps, 8 gauge is rated for 40 amps. Of course we could get into complicated things like circuit length etc, but that's the basics.Number one thing you shouldn't just randomly increase the size of a circuit breaker! Just because your welder says 40 amps doesn't mean the circuit will handle it. Might be perfectly fine, but by standards the wire is undersized.You need to extend the 8 Guage wire or move the plug to where it stops. I am not sure what type of plug you are using, but make sure it's a 50 amp plug and not a 30 amp plug as you would be exceeding it's rating and it could overheat and melt. Though it may be fine.As far as wiring goes all you really need is two hot wires, each with 120 volts, which gets your 240 volts. Of course by any modern standards you should include a ground. If it's typical 3 wire stuff you would just use black and white for hots and green for ground. Technically you should probably have a black and red hot, but as long as you know what is what it wouldn't matter.Sent from my SM-G900R6 using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by JimmyCInteresting and surprising to me, I got a mig pack 180 from cdn tire in Canada last November 2015 . The plug wire for the welder was 14 guage.. Big heavy 220 plug on light wire...I called Lincon and they told me that was the spec ...due to the duty cycle...BUT it should have a 220v 40amp feed. ???? I returned it and bought a 140... 110 v machine 20 amp on a 12 guage wire feed...Confused. I guess!!!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by jdeere_manLower voltage requires heavier wire to carry the same wattage because the amperage is higher. I am not familiar with the machines or specs, but 2400 watts is 20 amps at 120 volts, but is only 10 amps at 240 volts. Lower amperage means lighter wire can be used. These are just random numbers for an example. Not specific to your question. They may have used a heavier than necessary 240 volt plug because it is more common than a lower amperage plugSent from my SM-G900R6 using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by OldendumEd, I thought there was some rule that said 10 gauge or under wasn't excepted. In addition, that de-rated stuff had to be done by a hard connect, not a general purpose outlet where anything could be plugged in. Makes sense, but I'm not a sparky. I prefer to use big wire. 100A garage panel is fed by 2/0 aluminum. 10 gauge for a 30A compressor outlet, 6 gauge for a 50A welder outlet. (Do have a 70A breaker sorta hooked up in a test mode but no need to talk about that one. )
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1That is not what is happening here with Welding machines that have a Duty Cycle. In the example of the 180 using 14g wire on the power cord and also allowed to to use smaller wire to feed the circuit is because the machine does not run continuously. Normal operation and the machine will shutdown long before the wire overheats.All of the welding machine manufacturers do this with all of their 240v machines that come with a factory plug on the cord. Usually a 6-50P.Originally Posted by mberta2I really have no problem changing the 10 gauge wire over to 8 gauge wire if you guys think it's safer. I understand what your saying Oldendum. Who's to say that someone else might not come over and try to plug something else into that outlet, or if I sell the house, (which i never plan on doing haha) how will the new owners know that outlet is for a welder only? It's worth the $100 to be safe I guess. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by jdeere_manThat is probably true for something with like a 40 or 60% duty cycle. It's not a continuous load like a motor. Also the length of the run isn't substantial so you can get by with it. I still maintain my position that the 10 gauge wire should be changed to 8 gauge in the household wiring if he is going to run a 40 amp breaker. it may not be an issue with the welder, but if something else was ever connected to that plug it could overheat it. Plus you might have an issue with voltage drop. I am not sure how long that run was.Sent from my SM-G900R6 using Tapatalk
Reply:Lots of info. Thanks guys. I'm a better safe than sorry guy so I just got back from Home Depot. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Here is the setup after this weekend. 40a cb, 75ft run of 6gauge wire to the junction, 8gauge from the junction to the receptacle, 6-50 50a outlet. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:That's about 30ft from the junction to the receptacle. No issues now or in the future. Thanks again to everyone for the help. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BYour duty cycle is essential information for a correct answer. Willie
Reply:Originally Posted by mberta2Here is the setup after this weekend. 40a cb, 75ft run of 6gauge wire to the junction, 8gauge from the junction to the receptacle, 6-50 50a outlet. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Haha thanks for the help broccoli. I know u were rooting for saving money. You never know, maybe someday I will get a bigger welder. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1That is not what is happening here with Welding machines that have a Duty Cycle. In the example of the 180 using 14g wire on the power cord and also allowed to to use smaller wire to feed the circuit is because the machine does not run continuously. Normal operation and the machine will shutdown long before the wire overheats.All of the welding machine manufacturers do this with all of their 240v machines that come with a factory plug on the cord. Usually a 6-50P.
Reply:Article 430Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Rated 130amps welding/30% Duty cycle.40amp x .55 = 22 effective amps.That's why I said just put in the 30amp CB with the existing 10g wire.
Reply:Originally Posted by tinker001Ok here let's clear the air on the plug to the machine part. First the distance that is there is short enough that you could put a 50 amps through it with out a problem for most of a day. It might get warm but not hot. This is not the same has running 50 amps through 14 ga house wiring at 100 feet. Two different worlds one is a solid wire which does have certain advantages carrying amps and voltage over a distance. Now for the cord on the machine is multi stranded wire (multi surfaces and more surface area to carry electrons) which will carry more amps with very little voltage loss then a solid wire.for a short distance. Electricity is carried on the outside of the wire not through the middle of the wire. Yes voltage comes into play here big time.Now that is the lesson for the class, dismissed.
Reply:Originally Posted by mberta2I really have no problem changing the 10 gauge wire over to 8 gauge wire if you guys think it's safer. I understand what your saying Oldendum. Who's to say that someone else might not come over and try to plug something else into that outlet, or if I sell the house, (which i never plan on doing haha) how will the new owners know that outlet is for a welder only? It's worth the $100 to be safe I guess. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by winginitI am not a Electrician. 20amp breaker 12ga. 30amp breaker 10ga 40amp 8ga, 50amp 6ga I would not use wire that is underrated for the breaker, it is against code im sure, maybe you know but if you sell, or if it burns and insurance finds out ,they will not pay.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BI am an electrician. I got my masters license in 1978, started in trade 1969. It is, and has always been acceptable under very specific conditions to overfuse a conductor. I caution that things change. Now it may be a low duty cycle welder. People are financially motivated to be stupid. If I don't like my welder I will look for a new one. When the stars align, and my better welder arrives, I will plug it in. That arrangement won't then be acceptable. I'm too cheap to replace the cable, now I have a dangerous installation.Willie
Reply:Originally Posted by winginitthats good advice for a Electrician, for me i will fallow the recommended guide lines. thanks
Reply:…. Good advice Willie. Here is another scenario. My Milliermatic 211 came with two separate and removable plug ends. A 120V connection ( includes the white neutral ) and a 20A/230V plug since the power cord to the machine is I believe 14 gauge. That way Miller can offer to run the 120V plug for most of the Millermatic 211 welding ranges and 230V required for it's capacity at thicker plate stock up to 3/8 inch. O.K., However, on my shop wall I have always had a 30A/230V dryer outlet so I cannot simply stick the supplied 20A/230 plug onto the machines power cord end and plug it into my 30A/230V dryer outlet and I don't wanna have to go and replace this outlet and the 30A breaker to a 20A/230 breaker/outlet. So with that said, I have a pig tail I make up many years ago for a compressor I had that is about 3-feet long on 10/3 dryer line wire with the correct male end that plugs into this my 30A/230V dryer exiting outlet. I did it this way since I would take compressor to job sites and could then easily plug into a common dryer 30A/230V outlet configuration that was normally always available on-site. On the other end is a outdoor rated double gang box where I have had simply installed a female outlet configuration needed for that particular compressor setup. Question: So Can I now just take that dedicated female compressor outlet out of my pig tail gang box and install a matching female 20A/230V outlet so that the Millermatic's supplied plug can plug right into it and thereby save me the time and materials needed to change over my exiting 30A/230V dryer outlet just so I can use the Millermatic's supplied 20A/230V changeable plug end ? I realize this would render an oversized CB for the needs of the welder and it's factory supplied 14 gauge wire, but due to it's limited duty cycles I see no harm in doing this and I think this is why the NEC allows greater CB ratings while at the sometime allowing smaller than regularly rate wire sizes for a given existing larger CB circuit. Any opinions as to doing it this way ?Last edited by FLASHGORDON; 05-29-2016 at 02:31 AM.
Reply:Flash,The supplied 230v plug on the MM211 is a 6-50 plug - rated up to 50amps.Not sure why Miller stamped 20A on it because it does not designate the amperage.Do as you mentioned- install a 6-50 receptacle in your gang box.Good to go.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Thank you Ed, just wanted to confirm my thought process here. For the most part, just thought maybe Miller had something covert going on inside the 211 that would not lend itself to being over fused like an internal heat trip fuse or would counter-act with the use cycle internal settings or what & whatever. Yeah the heavy plug supplied threw me off at first as well as the spades could clearly be used on a solid 50 amp setup.
Reply:Ask an on site electrician that question....
Reply:… er … well I am a licensed general building contractor and was hands-on active for over 30 years, does that count ?
Reply:Are you a licensed electrician.If no it doesnt count.An electrician on site can answer the question.Anything else is a WAG.
Reply:…. nah your wrong, for this boy no it counts. At this point after 30 plus years we don't need a subcontractor tell us the code or how to look it up or what size wire to run or the number of bends in a conduit run of 3/4 inch e-conduit or etc. etc. At this point in the game don't even need a structural engineer to tell us how much rebar we need, the size, the spacing or where to put it, at this point in the game we have pretty much done it all….but thanks for your continued input :') |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:04:38