New TIG torch contaminated?

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I recently bought a new CK WC-20 TIG torch, but I can't get it  to weld right. The problem became very apparent on a recent project involving aluminum. I just could not get the thing to weld. So after failing to get a stable arc and normal puddle (no filler) on a 1/8" 6061 coupon, I swapped out the wc20 for my trusty old gas-cooled 17 series torch. I swapped the tungsten at the same time, and the 17 torch did everything normally. I switched the tungsten back to the 20, plugged it in, purged the gas line, and...same problem as before.The gas and welding machine are the same. The tungsten and coupon material are the same. The torch connections are the same, except that the new 20 is water-cooled, which I think shouldn't matter. The 17 welds fine, the 20 doesn't. The pic below shows the results: a bunch of ugly attempts with the 20 and four successful no-filler passes with the 17.Any idea what's going on?Cheers,Q

1969 Chris Craft Roamer 46 RefitMiller TB280 w/Spoolmatic 30a2016 AHP AlphaTIG 200XAncient Millermatic 35Zeny Cut50 plasma cutter
Reply:Post pics of all the consumables of the new torch first.  Something is physically compromised, and its easiest to start with the torch end.

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Reply:Do you have a gas flow meter to put on the end of your tig torch? You need to verify gas flow at the torch end, you might have a leak somewhere in the line. Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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Reply:

Originally Posted by q240z

I recently bought a new CK WC-20 TIG torch, but I can't get it  to weld right. The problem became very apparent on a recent project involving aluminum. I just could not get the thing to weld. So after failing to get a stable arc and normal puddle (no filler) on a 1/8" 6061 coupon, I swapped out the wc20 for my trusty old gas-cooled 17 series torch. I swapped the tungsten at the same time, and the 17 torch did everything normally. I switched the tungsten back to the 20, plugged it in, purged the gas line, and...same problem as before.The gas and welding machine are the same. The tungsten and coupon material are the same. The torch connections are the same, except that the new 20 is water-cooled, which I think shouldn't matter. The 17 welds fine, the 20 doesn't. The pic below shows the results: a bunch of ugly attempts with the 20 and four successful no-filler passes with the 17.Any idea what's going on?Cheers,Q


Reply:Is the water cooling hooked up right? The return line for water needs to be on the power cable line. Did you snug up the little knurled fittings for coolant inside the torch with some pliers?How long did you purge out the new torch for prior to welding?Pictures of consumables/torches would help, are you swapping consumables them or does each torch have its own?The new torch being water cooled can matter if moisture leaks out of the fittings and works its way into the gas lens/collet body. I've seen that happen and it isn't pretty.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Oscar

Post pics of all the consumables of the new torch first.  Something is physically compromised, and its easiest to start with the torch end.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Thoriated Wolfram

Did you snug up the little knurled fittings for coolant inside the torch with some pliers?How long did you purge out the new torch for prior to welding?
Reply:

Originally Posted by Fab54

Gas isn't flowing through the torch.
Reply:Oscar, Fab54 isn't me.There's definitely gas flowing. As I mentioned previously, after cranking up the post-flow, I can tap the foot pedal with my thumb over the cup and feel pressure quickly build. While there's pressure building, I'm not hearing any gas leaks from the torch head.These consumables are ebay cheap knockoffs...same as the ones on my ol' reliable 17 series torch.I spent an hour trying different settings and gas flow rates. The only way I'm getting clean passes out of this setup is to have 1/16" or less of stickout, which makes it impossible to weld.I'll order a CK stubby lens kit from a reputable dealer and see if that solves the problem. It'll be interesting to go through the kit part by part and figure out which component is causing the problem.Stay tuned.1969 Chris Craft Roamer 46 RefitMiller TB280 w/Spoolmatic 30a2016 AHP AlphaTIG 200XAncient Millermatic 35Zeny Cut50 plasma cutter
Reply:Sorry about the mix up.  If you have flow in the torch head, you either have a wrong sized collet, the collet body threads are blocking the orifice hole, or mis-machined collet body gas passages.  I guarantee you if you put stock 9/20 consumables (that are made to the right sizes) it will work.  The 17 consumables might be the same type, but they are not one and the same since they go on different torches.

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Reply:It might be interesting and informative to make a smoke chamber in which to 'fire' the torch for short periods so you can watch the flow pattern. Using an empty glass aquarium is easiest, but even a cardboard box with plywood or a sheet of metal on the bottom and covered by glass or plexiglass will do. Put smoldering old cotton rags, slightly damp ripping sawdust, or maybe corn husks in a can, it going inside the chamber, to fill it with the smoke. Keep the heat output low and try different the can positions, trying to minimize convection currents. Might need a small light inside a non-transparent box.This would show unequal distribution of the gas, turbulence, or maybe even a single jet leaving the cup..Last edited by Oldiron2; 6 Hours Ago at 09:01 PM.
Reply:

Originally Posted by q240z

The fittings are tight. No snugging needed.I purged the new torch for several minutes thus far.
Reply:After seeing clean passes with the tungsten recessed 1/16" inside the cup, I tried to get a puddle going on a corner weld using the same material. By which I mean, I had two coupons clamped to a piece of 3/8" angle and had several clean no-filler passes on one of the coupons. When I tried the corner weld, it was like somebody turned off the argon. But there's a lot of gas passing through that cup. It's the strangest thing.I just ordered a new TIG Finger and CK stubby gas lens kit from WeldMonger. Jody's videos were pretty much where I learned everything I know about TIG welding, so he deserves the patronage. It feels a bit strange to order parts without knowing exactly what the problem is, but clearly there's something wrong with this ebay stubby lens kit. My guess is the country of origin will end up being the basic problem. Well...that and me being a cheap SOB. lol1969 Chris Craft Roamer 46 RefitMiller TB280 w/Spoolmatic 30a2016 AHP AlphaTIG 200XAncient Millermatic 35Zeny Cut50 plasma cutter
Reply:

Originally Posted by Thoriated Wolfram

Per the CK instructions, you need to setup the coolant flow properly and also snug the knurled connections. The water coolant on the torch side can be set up wrong on any machine, you should check it to make sure you're following the manufacturer's instructions.If you didn't snug the fittings inside the torch it's possible for moisture to work its way out. That may not be your problem here but it will be some day. Have you pulled back the handle on the water cooled torch to check for moisture?
Reply:

Originally Posted by q240z

Here's pix of the brand new 20 and its gas lens kit and the same for the ol' reliable 17. Both lens kits were ebay purchases.I don't have a gauge to put on the torch, but I can hear the gas flowing, and it changes as I dial the regulator up or down. I can also recess the tungsten, turn up the post flow, tap the pedal, and feel pressure build if I cover the cup with my thumb.All connections appear tight, and on this machine (AlphaTIG 2016) it's not possible to mix up connections.With the tungsten 1/16" up inside the cup, I was able to get clean passes with the new 20. My gas-cooled 17 with the same orifice cup needs ~17cfh of argon with 3/16" stickout. I tried dialing the argon up to 30cfh with the 20, but the pass started looking ugly with more than 1/16-1/8" of stickout.




Reply:Just get a flow meter to go on the end of a torch, you don't know anything until you get that. https://a.co/d/3EXJfaZEveryone should have one, they are useful for tracing down gas related issues You have a leak somewhere Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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Reply:

Originally Posted by MetalMan23

Doesn't matter if you can hear it, you ear can't  measure the flow rate.You can hear it come out every time and still have a leak, or it can jump up at first, and then go back down to almost no flowSent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
Reply:

Originally Posted by q240z

I mentioned already that when I tap the pedal with my thumb over the cup, I can feel pressure build and there's no evidence of leaks while that happens. The pressure keeps building until I move my thumb.How could pressure build if there was this bad of a leak? How could there be a 'jump up then no flow' gas scenario if I can feel the pressure build on my thumb?
Reply:

Originally Posted by MetalMan23

Just get a flow meter to go on the end of a torch, you don't know anything until you get that.You have a leak somewhere
Reply:

Originally Posted by q240z

Pressure builds and no leaks manifest when I put my thumb over the cup and tap the foot pedal. A flow meter will show a number representing what I'm feeling with my thumb and hearing (or rather, not hearing) with my ears: there's no leak.My money's on Oscar's analysis. Y'all're gonna owe him a beer if it turns out he's right! lol
Reply:Did you try tightening these connections, or checking them for leaks?

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Reply:

Originally Posted by MetalMan23

I'm guessing you've never had a gas leak before You can't necessarily hear them,
Reply:

Originally Posted by q240z

Sure I've had gas leaks before. I track them down with a spray bottle of soapy water, you get a few bubbles, but they're never that significant. This is like somebody turned off the argon. Which is why I suspect you're gonna owe Oscar a beer for his superior analytical skills when this is all said and done.


Reply:

Originally Posted by MetalMan23

Did you try tightening these connections, or checking them for leaks?
Reply:trying to save a buck can cost you 3x more in the end. alot of greif. bunch of down time. and you didnt even save a buck when its all said and done since you had to buy new parts againinvertig 221 water cooledhypertherm powermax 30xpfronius transpocket 180fronius transsteel 2200fronius iwave 230i water cooledalso i would get wedge collets and throw those split style in the trashinvertig 221 water cooledhypertherm powermax 30xpfronius transpocket 180fronius transsteel 2200fronius iwave 230i water cooled