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I am building a generator for a customer. It is powered by a four cylinder, air cooled, Lister diesel. It drives a PTO driven generator head. I got a fuel tank built and installed last night and am now trying to get the thing fired up. I cracked the injector lines loose and primed till I got fuel. I cranked it over and got it to run, but I had to hold the murphy switch in. It ran a few min and then died. Now it won't start up again, and isn't really smoking so I don't think it is getting fuel. I checked the lines and there was still fuel available. There is also a toggle switch with a wire running to nowhere and an open terminal on the murphy switch. Does this toggle hold the murphy switch in? Other problems are that the tach doesn't seem to work and there is some type of heat or flame censor pointed at the head that seems to be falling apart. There is also an unused wire hanging from the alternator and I don't know where it goes.I am not very familiar with diesels and any help would be much appreciated.I will post some pics, but they aren't very good.
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Reply:When it ran did it smoke? If so what color was it? Is there a fuel filter? Make sure it is full of fuel and that all the lines are tight. It doesn't take much air to keep one from running. Is there a solenoid on the fuel pump or do you have to pull a lever to cut the fuel supply (what do you have to do to get it to shut down)?
Reply:No smoke has got to be a fuel problem. This thing has a Lucas/CAV pump on it dosen't it? Is it an inline pump?Also what speed do you plan on running this engine at? I am thinking those PTO drive generators were usually made to run at 540 RPM. That is way below the power band of that Lister.Joewww.CummingsHauling.com
Reply:It has very little white smoke. When it first fired up it produced a lot more smoke just before running on its own. My only experience with diesels is running the shag trucks where I used to work and they smoked like hell. As for the RPM this thing is going to run at....I don't know. I was told to assemble these parts on this trailer. I will go look at the generator and see what it is supposed to run at. If the RPMs are going to be a problem, then we will just have to come up with a reduction box or lose the increasing box on the generator end. Not sure what you are talking about with the pump, but I can run out and take a look at it. Maybe tell you what it is. I have another pic too if it will help.
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Reply:Is that engine shut off solenoid located right below the alternator moving? If not try moving it by hand while you crank the engine. But I would not start this thing before you are sure of the RPM or you will over speed the generator and throw the windings off the rotor.Joewww.CummingsHauling.com
Reply:The gen says 1800 RPM, but I am not sure if that is at the pto shaft or at the rotor. I have the clutch disengaged for now so it is not turning the gen. The solenoid moves when I push in the murphy switch. There should be something to hold it while running though, that's what I think the toggle with the wire to nowhere is for. Here is a pic of the pump.
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Reply:Forgot to add. When I hit the primer I can hear the fuel going into the tank. Shouldn't there be some type of restriction in the return line?
Reply:The injection pump does say CAV on the tag.
Reply:Try disconnecting that solonoid and operating the shut off by hand. Yeah there should be something to hold that solonoid in. The fuel going back to the tank is normal.1800 is the speed of the generator. That gearbox should be a 3.33 to 1 speed increaser. You are going to have to lose that gearbox.Joewww.CummingsHauling.com
Reply:Boostin, The thing to remember with diesels is it only takes compression, air and fuel to make some noise. If you suspect a problem with the Murphy gauges/switches you can just unhook the shut-down solenoid and shut it down manualy until you get things sorted out.Back to the no start problem, did you re-bleed the injector lines at the injectors? If the pump got a slug of air that could be the problem as air in the high pressure injector lines compresses and won't open the injector poppet valve due to insufficient fuel line pressure.Make sure the fuel filter(s) are full (remove and fill them) and if there's a manual primer, operate that until you get a steady flow from the return line. You did install a return line to the tank didn't you?I'm with Joe on the speed issue. That generator input gearbox will either be set up for 540 or 1000rpm. No good if it's 540 and if it's 1000 the engine sill has to be able to produce the hp required for full output at that rpm. That generator looks to be about a 15-20KW unit and if so it'll require 20-27hp minimum (1hp/746watts) at the required gearbox input speed.Joe, As for overspeeding the generator, that Lister is equipped with a clutch so it doesn't have to turn while he's sorting things out with the engine.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110
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Reply:Any chance you know where to find a wiring diagram? I have a toggle to nowhere, a starter button, a push to kill button, and a murphy switch. I believe the little sensor thing dangling is a heat sensor to kill the motor if it gets too hot. I should be able to wire around it for now and get a replacement monday.Kinda sux to have ta loose the gearbox as it is cast into the front of the gen. The customer might have another gen laying around (he has a collection) or maybe I'll have to fab up a new front cover for the gen without the gearbox.
Reply:Duane, filters are full, genny is 25kw 1phase or 30kw 3phase. It's got a 100amp tripple breaker in it. I think the customer said the Lister was good for 65 or 75 hp. I bled the injector lines at the pump cuz there is a goofy four bladed nut deal at the injectors. You can see them in the pics. Air between the pump and the injectors makes sense. Do I need a special tool for the injector end of the lines or will a crescent or channel locks work? I don't want to risk breaking them if they are gonna be real tight.
Reply:IIRC I think you'll find the front rotor bearing is in the gearbox cover. I'm not sure you can fab a bearing support and still have enough shaft to connect the driveshaft yoke to.Maybe you'll find it's a 1000rpm box and that Lister can make enough power at that speed for what size generator it is.
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Reply:I was trying to limit this job to just assembling supplied pieces, but the customer wants me to get everything going for him. Kinda sux but **** happens. I'd bet there would be enough shaft available. If there is room for a gear and a bearing then there is room for a bearing and some type of yoke, even if I have to do a flat faced hub and bolt the yoke to it like the engine side is. I'm thinking a 1/2" plate with a piece of DOM welded to it, then have my machinest cut the bearing recess and bolt holes would do the trick to lose the box.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Boostinjdm
. . .genny is 25kw 1phase or 30kw 3phase.
Reply:More accurate specs on the genny1phase 25000kw 84amps3phase 35000kw 100ampsI was just looking at Winco's website and it appears the bearing is inboard of the gear. So maybe I could just remove half the gearbox and it's contents, pull the gear off the shaft and replace with a yoke. Maybe. I will have to talk to the customer and see what he says. I just want to figure out the engine for now, I will worry bout the genny later.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Boostinjdm
. . .I cracked the injector lines loose and primed till I got fuel. I cranked it over and got it to run. . .. . .It ran a few min and then died. Now it won't start up again, and isn't really smoking so I don't think it is getting fuel. I checked the lines and there was still fuel available. . .
Reply:Wow, nice reply den. Labeled pic and all.What would you like to know about the new tank?Fuel pickup at the bottom. (I hate to do that, but since all is spotless clean I let it slide)Return and vent in the top.18 gal capacityThe top of the tank is just below the lift pump.I currently only have a couple inches of fuel in the bottom and the lift pump was picking it up just fine.Oh, and the tank is all Tigged and pressure checked at 10psi with fittings plugged and cap in place. (you can skip the lecture on pressure testing, I do it with all my tanks)
Reply:Did you see this engine run before you started the project?Will it fire on tiny little shots of either? And by tiny I mean tiny.Rule of thumb is 1 1/2 - 2 HP per KW. on smaller generators. That Lister isn't going to make that at 1,000. I know the formula is 746 watts to 1 horsepower, but due to losses it usually ends up being about 500 watts per HP.That Lister probably isn't in the powerband until 1,500 RPM and it's rated HP is most likely at about 2,000. Is your customer confusing his Lister with a Lister CS like this one?
Last edited by joethemechanic; 07-05-2009 at 07:08 AM.Joewww.CummingsHauling.com
Reply:Oh yeah, if all else fails. Get a quart of ATF. disconnect the fuel line and put it in the bottle of ATF. Pump the primer until you see atf coming out the return line. Hook everything back up and try to start it.That CAV pump only has one plunger and barrel in it. It is a rotary distributor pump. If something is stuck you lose fuel delivery to all 4 cylinders. Those pumps were designed to be lubricated by the fuel. Today's fuel is not very lubricating. You might want to run about a quart of atf to about 50 galons of fuel on a regular basis.Joewww.CummingsHauling.com
Reply:does that motor have glow plugs
Reply:
Originally Posted by Boostinjdm
Forgot to add. When I hit the primer I can hear the fuel going into the tank. Shouldn't there be some type of restriction in the return line?
Reply:
Originally Posted by joethemechanic
Rule of thumb is 1 1/2 - 2 HP per KW. on smaller generators. That Lister isn't going to make that at 1,000. I know the formula is 746 watts to 1 horsepower, but due to losses it usually ends up being about 500 watts per HP.
Reply:It lives! I bled the air out per Denrep's instructions (the pic really helped) and got it fired up. Starts easy and runs well around 1800 (hint, hint). Must have been something in the air this morning, cuz now the solenoid holds in, alternater charges, engine stop button works, and the tach started functioning. This thing runs surprisingly clean and smooth. I could prolly set my can of pop on top of it and have it stay put.Found some info on the engine last night. Two different figures, but they are in the same ballpark.62hp @220059hp @2200Also noticed it would have spun the gen the wrong direction, so looks like bypassing the gearbox will work (at least it looks that way). It looks like if I just split the gearbox and remove the gear from the shaft I will have 2-3" of shaft to play with for attaching a yoke. Will have to get with the customer before doing that though, he might have other ideas.Last edited by Boostinjdm; 07-05-2009 at 12:59 PM.
Reply:That's great news Boostin. denrep obviously has a special touch when it comes to long distant troubleshooting. Helps to know what he and Joe knows too.The directional thing on those Winco units is for proper lubrication of the gears under prolonged loads and is set up to rotate as such from a typical tractor PTO.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110
Save Second Base!Me? What do I know. Everyone knows that the best mechanics have Huge Snap-On tool boxes with murals of race cars on the side, and they drive around in new SUVs wearing expensive sunglasses. I am just a dumb junk man.Joewww.CummingsHauling.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by joethemechanic
Me? What do I know. Everyone knows that the best mechanics have Huge Snap-On tool boxes with murals of race cars on the side, and they drive around in new SUVs wearing expensive sunglasses. I am just a dumb junk man.
Reply:
Originally Posted by duaneb55
. . .and carry a diagnostics reader on their belt.
Reply:Update.Finally got the OK to move forward on this thing. Tossed the pto shaft in the junk and switched to an automotive drive shaft. Split gearcase and removed contents. So after several days of trying to track down the proper parts. I started off the day with a challenge. How to connect this driveshaft to this generator shaft....
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Reply:You use one of these. It will have the keyway broached tommarrow and then I will build a full guard and hopefully wave bye bye to this thing. Anybody want to tell me what they think this one of a kind adapter is worth?
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Reply:Couple questions.The lift pump loses prime after sitting a few days. Will an auto parts store carry a rebuild kit for this? Anybody know a part #, brand of pump, or anything else that might help me help them get the right parts? I have noticed that if I hit the manual primer several times before starting that I don't have any problems. I would prefer to fix the pump, but is it OK if I don't? I mean, will it only get worse?What should I set the voltage at? Right now the engine runs at approx 1800rpm and the gen is putting out 244 volts with no load. Should I bump it up to 250v to compensate for the engine slowing down under heavy load? One of the farmers I do work for mentioned his standby runs at 250v and with my house at 254v, this doesn't seem out of line. The engine just has throttle stops for speed control, no gov.Customer stopped by today and I got partial payment, the rest due when I deliver it. He was smiling the whole time. Just have to address the questions above and It will be done.
If it quits raining tomarrow, I will get it out in the daylight and take some final pics. Turned out pretty good for using stuff bought from several different farm sales. I even guarded the driveshaft and gave it a good coat of safety yellow. I didn't cheese out and just guard the top either. It's guarded all the way around. Almost idiot proof, almost.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Boostinjdm
. . .The lift pump loses prime after sitting a few days. . . .. . .What should I set the voltage at? Right now the engine runs at approx 1800rpm and the gen is putting out 244 volts with no load. Should I bump it up to 250v to compensate for the engine slowing down under heavy load? One of the farmers I do work for mentioned his standby runs at 250v and with my house at 254v, this doesn't seem out of line. The engine just has throttle stops for speed control, no gov.
Reply:I aggree 100% with denrep - a check valve in the fuel pick up line at the tank will solve your fuel drainback problem.Also as he stated, frequency is much more important than voltage with low Hz being worse than slightly high. Acceptable operating range is 60Hz (59.9 actually) +/- 2Hz. I typically set my generators for a no-load frequency of 61-62Hz and make sure it doesn't drop below 59 under load. Governor 'droop' (sensitivity) dictates how high the no-load setting needs to be.Speaking of governors, the governor would be internal to the fuel pump on that Lister and hence no additional external linkage. It should also be a 'variable speed' type used for stationary drivers as apposed to a 'limiting speed' governor used for road vehicles. Variable speed is best and again, it's droop characteristics will dictate what your no-load frequency setting needs to be to assure it stays above acceptable low end under full load.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110
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Reply:If you don't have anything to check frequency, you can use an old type clock that has an electric motor and gears.You plug the clock into the generator and when you get it to keep time the generator will be running the correct speed.And when you are working on generators, it is better to use an analog volt ohm meterJoewww.CummingsHauling.com
Reply:I think I will be going shopping later for a new meter, cuz mine does not have the correct functions.Frequency would be a nice function to have. If I remember right, you can also use it as a tach.
Reply:This little unit http://www.energyfederation.org/cons.../cPath/388_254 is what I use. Displays volts and frequency of input power and can be used to monitor up to a 15amp output load in amps or watts.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110
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Reply:Here's some pics. Let's just say that photography is not one of my better skills.
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Reply:Looks good. What is he using this for?Joewww.CummingsHauling.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by joethemechanic
Looks good. What is he using this for?
Reply:I just wanted to say thanks for this thread, especially to DENREP. I just acquired a similar Lister Diesel with a similar starting problem after having moved it to my location. I opened the two bleeder screws on the top of the fuel filter and cranked the starter until nothing but fuel came out around the two bleeder screws. That was all it took!Here's some pics of my three cylinder, 1800 HP, Lister Diesel attached to a 10 KW generator.My plan is to get it rewired and hooked into the house for emergency power. Any tips or info or where I might find any operation or maintenance manuals would be great. Thanks, Stan
Reply:Boostinjdm, in the 2nd image you posted in this thread you can see a large blue hose going to the backside of a gauge. In the 3rd image that you posted you can see that gauge on the far left.My question is, what king of gauge is this and where does the hose come from?I ask because it you look at the 1st image that I posted, you can see a similar blue hose that is only connected to the crankcase on one end. The other end is not attached to anything, but is held to the block with a wire tie. You may also be able to see a plate on the side of the control panel with a hole in it that looks like it had a gauge in it at one time.I'm trying to find the missing link.Thanks
Reply:Mine was for oil pressure. I have since delivered this project to it's owner, so I can't run out and look. I still do lot's of work for these guys. If I see it around, I'll take a closer look at it.
Reply:Your SR-3 is one tough girl... Anything any of you need to know about any of the Listers from the L through the J series, regardless of age, contact me.... Alpha included... I worked on and with the Corporate end of Lister for 23 years.. I've every book published as well as having most of it stuck in my head. As for the blue line there is on an SR, no factory oil gallery where your blue line seems to go, behind the pump housing or cover. In so far as any gauge you might think good to have on the engine, don't do it. 99% of ALL lister failures were due to people hanging gauges and such on the engine... the engine is tough with a factory build life of 20,000 hours on the S range and 40,000 on the H and J range. Drop the electrics other than perhaps the starter. If the engine is in remotely good shape it'll start with the and crank well below zero without issues. Find me, I'll show you how!Anything you need to know, find me.
Reply:Got word from the guy today that this generator works good. He said he's used it once so far and has it ready to go for the freezing rain we are supposed to get this week. He is using it to run 3 hog buildings.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Just thought I'd pop in with another update. Genny has been used several times throughout the winter with only a minor problem with the murphy switch. They did complain about it only running 23 hrs on a tank of fuel. I didn't figure it would be a problem cuz they only live about a mile or two from the site and have to do chores every day anyways...My name's not Jim....
Reply:Awesome news 'Jim'
. Owner probably expected it to run for days with that fuel tank.
Always nice to know when your hard work pays off.
MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110
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Reply:Very interesting thread. thanksMiller millermatic 251Miller aircrafter 330st, wp201961 Lincoln SA200Ellis 1600 bandsawLogan 820 latheSouth Bend 13"Bridgeport M Head
Reply:
Originally Posted by duaneb55
I aggree 100% with denrep - a check valve in the fuel pick up line at the tank will solve your fuel drainback problem.Also as he stated, frequency is much more important than voltage with low Hz being worse than slightly high. Acceptable operating range is 60Hz (59.9 actually) +/- 2Hz. I typically set my generators for a no-load frequency of 61-62Hz and make sure it doesn't drop below 59 under load. Governor 'droop' (sensitivity) dictates how high the no-load setting needs to be.Speaking of governors, the governor would be internal to the fuel pump on that Lister and hence no additional external linkage. It should also be a 'variable speed' type used for stationary drivers as apposed to a 'limiting speed' governor used for road vehicles. Variable speed is best and again, it's droop characteristics will dictate what your no-load frequency setting needs to be to assure it stays above acceptable low end under full load.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Blacksea7
Your SR-3 is one tough girl... Anything any of you need to know about any of the Listers from the L through the J series, regardless of age, contact me.... Alpha included... I worked on and with the Corporate end of Lister for 23 years.. I've every book published as well as having most of it stuck in my head. As for the blue line there is on an SR, no factory oil gallery where your blue line seems to go, behind the pump housing or cover. In so far as any gauge you might think good to have on the engine, don't do it. 99% of ALL lister failures were due to people hanging gauges and such on the engine... the engine is tough with a factory build life of 20,000 hours on the S range and 40,000 on the H and J range. Drop the electrics other than perhaps the starter. If the engine is in remotely good shape it'll start with the and crank well below zero without issues. Find me, I'll show you how!Anything you need to know, find me.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Blacksea7
Your SR-3 is one tough girl... Anything any of you need to know about any of the Listers from the L through the J series, regardless of age, contact me.... Alpha included... I worked on and with the Corporate end of Lister for 23 years.. I've every book published as well as having most of it stuck in my head. As for the blue line there is on an SR, no factory oil gallery where your blue line seems to go, behind the pump housing or cover. In so far as any gauge you might think good to have on the engine, don't do it. 99% of ALL lister failures were due to people hanging gauges and such on the engine... the engine is tough with a factory build life of 20,000 hours on the S range and 40,000 on the H and J range. Drop the electrics other than perhaps the starter. If the engine is in remotely good shape it'll start with the and crank well below zero without issues. Find me, I'll show you how!Anything you need to know, find me. |
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发表于 2022-10-9 15:51:55