|
|
Preparing a Hobart 190 and the power cord is a 12 gauge cord for this 230V machine. The feed to my outlet is 6 gauge coming from a 50 amp breaker on my main service panel. Aside from replacing the power cord on the unit with one that is properly rated, what other options do I have. Thank you in advance
Reply:You don't need to do anything. Don't replace the power cord. Your cord to the machine does not need to match the 6 gauge from the panel. I had that exact same welder, and my plug is also fed with 6 gauge from the panel with a 90 amp breaker. Never a problem.Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:Thank you for taking the time to reply. I am not so concerned with matching wire size as I am with 12 gauge wire connected to a 230V welder that will be asked to handle more than the 20 amps that 12 gauge wire is rated for at 230V.
Reply:I agree 👍 Dave
Originally Posted by Louie1961
You don't need to do anything. Don't replace the power cord. Your cord to the machine does not need to match the 6 gauge from the panel. I had that exact same welder, and my plug is also fed with 6 gauge from the panel with a 90 amp breaker. Never a problem.
Reply:you don't need to change it. Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
http://www.philswelding.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by David Tavens
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I am not so concerned with matching wire size as I am with 12 gauge wire connected to a 230V welder that will be asked to handle more than the 20 amps that 12 gauge wire is rated for at 230V.
Reply:
Originally Posted by David Tavens
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I am not so concerned with matching wire size as I am with 12 gauge wire connected to a 230V welder that will be asked to handle more than the 20 amps that 12 gauge wire is rated for at 230V.
Reply:As everyone said, just plug it in and your good to go.
Reply:All good mate. The cord is short. It is no problem at that length. Designed to be just fine. Duty cycle is not continuous.
Reply:
Originally Posted by rexcormack
#12 cord is rated for 25amps.https://www.awcwire.com/product/soow...25%20lbs%2FMFT. The rating of wiring for welders is covered by a totally different section of the NEC than house wiring.As the others have said there is no need to change it.
Reply:actual temperature achieved in testing, not limited by NEC
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
I am not sure how they test but there are developed standards and they do have to follow some aspects of the code. Code says 12 wire is the limit for 50A circuits for a cord, there are limits for internal wire of machines. The UL says it complies with recognized standards. Says it has a legal cord, says it has a legal plug and says it complies with short circuit protocals and internal fuse if required. Its got to be safe for the circuit its intended to be plugged in to. Willie is probably more familiar with the details of the organizations and they do call UL a testing agency but thyey cant pass somethiung that wouldnt be code legal. Hence the 50A adapter again, allows the dvi machines to connect a 14 wire to 50A circuits. I am not sure how the adapter works but its basically a 30A fuse to allow that wire to be used on that outlet. This is why the warning in the book, do not cut the end off and wire on 50,,, it has now lost its proper ocpd. Its not published but if a guy was to limit the breaker to 30 then it would be legal again.
Reply:We need a copy of the front of the book where it describes equipment compliance. They leave it up to others but basically if it connects to these systems has to be code compliant.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
We need a copy of the front of the book where it describes equipment compliance. They leave it up to others but basically if it connects to these systems has to be code compliant.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
We need a copy of the front of the book where it describes equipment compliance. They leave it up to others but basically if it connects to these systems has to be code compliant.
Reply:Yes it does, says no cord smaller than 12 on 50, has a chart for it.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:I can spot a missing link from here. It draws what it draws but you can't put cord on it based on that if it doesn't meet short circuit , can't simply wire a 14 to a 50 circuit. Can't wire 16 to it either. Doesn't matter if it draws 2 amps. If this was so why we ever current limit a circuit?? Why not run 100a in a ring and plug you computer in to it, after all, it won't overheat the wire.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:That's what I said and been saying that some machines like ac buzzer do not have internal protection. Thermal provided by calculated load and internal wire sized for fault protection with 50A.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:I don't mean to be snippy but sometimes I wonder when we still have trouble with the basics of a cord and plug appliance. There was a good link someone had to control board design. But,,, as was mentioned above, not sure where the missing connection is but look at the difference in a couple machines and their allowed wire and their cords should make it obvious. Single voltage 210 migvrequires 14 wire but comes with a 12 cord,, I will type slower if you got trouble keeping up but it's sonits allowed on a 50 circuit. Machines that come 14 cord have special 50A adapter. They don't need it on 120 due to the fact its using a 20 circuit and yes, uses 1 different wire.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
I don't mean to be snippy but sometimes I wonder when we still have trouble with the basics of a cord and plug appliance. There was a good link someone had to control board design. But,,, as was mentioned above, not sure where the missing connection is but look at the difference in a couple machines and their allowed wire and their cords should make it obvious. Single voltage 210 migvrequires 14 wire but comes with a 12 cord,, I will type slower if you got trouble keeping up but it's sonits allowed on a 50 circuit. Machines that come 14 cord have special 50A adapter. They don't need it on 120 due to the fact its using a 20 circuit and yes, uses 1 different wire.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
I don't mean to be snippy but sometimes I wonder when we still have trouble with the basics of a cord and plug appliance. There was a good link someone had to control board design. But,,, as was mentioned above, not sure where the missing connection is but look at the difference in a couple machines and their allowed wire and their cords should make it obvious. Single voltage 210 migvrequires 14 wire but comes with a 12 cord,, I will type slower if you got trouble keeping up but it's sonits allowed on a 50 circuit. Machines that come 14 cord have special 50A adapter. They don't need it on 120 due to the fact its using a 20 circuit and yes, uses 1 different wire.
Reply:I agree the cord is rated to the machine but there is a legal limit to the size can be plugged in to the outlet. Legal extension cord for 20A circuit, 16. Xmas lights have additional fuse. Old ones drew more current but had heavier wire to meet short standards, 16. Worth noting. lots of machines wired 14/30 ends in woodworking, none come 16/30 240V welders, single voltage no matter what the draw, none smaller than 12. As for the shaver or lights, these have to be listed to plug in to 20. Don't explain it to me, explain to UL. I didn't put the cord on. If I put it on, it'd have to be bigger.
Reply:As a practical matter,,, depending on model I would be with Willi9e too, wouldnt replace the buzzer with the same size either unless it was factory replacement and since the type wouldnt likely be the same it would be sized up too as well as for terminations. Not saying I wouldnt improve it, simply stating why its legal and acceptable to do what they did,,,, to me those 2 things are different and clear but I guess not.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:I can even spot some of the types of apprenticeship and education different guys have had with this. I am not gonna go in to that because any detail I get wriong no matter how irrelevent would be a shootout. There are a couple guys here that are not in the trade have as good a grasp on circuit design and electronics leave me eating dirt and I am almost sure a couple of the guys I debate thius with have wayyyyy better understanding of most things than I have. Thats to get it out of the way that in no may do I think I am smarter or better educated. I really ait talking to them anyway, its simply a mechanism or the thread would be quite short. But the facts are not,,, i did it this way,,, I would do it that way, I was always told or the super gem when we really dont know wtf we are talking about is what an inspector in my part of the world would allow and then go on to state they really dont know **** anyway,,, so still dont have a fact only opinions. That doesnt mean there isnt value in that and had cause in a couple cases from a guy in AZ frequents this had the classes said they allow something I hadnt considered due to different methods. At first due to experience and local would have disagreed with him out of nature but I take a bit and ponder the point he was making and see why it may pass an inspection. Certain types of equipment, hard wiring a cord not legal but depending on several factors might add cord end and make it plug and cord and also act as a disconnect. Be allowed if it DIDNT violate other fundamental prinicples. This seems a bit hard to grasp also,,, that because there is an allowed exception doesnt mean all the rest dont apply. In other words,,, we point out the welder exception and then Joe comes along and says,,, no inspector woiuld allow this wire on all the outlets in a house,,, well,,, duh and no one said they would or even suggest it was legal or good practice to wire a 14-50 any other way than code standards. Somehow electricians use "code minimum" with thst, with dryers and water heaters but absolutely piss their pants if a guy only uses it one sioze better when it comes to a welder? Better yet why somehow its not to insure equipment is plugged in to current limited circuit its designed for and the whole fuggin country tries to idiot proo0f it with a plug in system but someone can find a way to outsmart it below athe minimum standard they complain about then advocate improper wire sizing. As the inspector bud of mine says,,, the code and the breaker do not stop at the wall outlet but perform other function beyond that. Proper electrician involved in education,,, would be trying to drive this often silent componants principle vs brushing past it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, hence the missing link I am refering to. I suspect in some apprenticeship it wasnt stressed during those formulative years, guy doesnt have to understand this to wire houses or even be a good safe wireman. I know lots of guys wire well dont know squat and a couple genius are very poor installers.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:There are cord and plug machines to 5 grand now. We see a long list of advertised features. They all drive the price up. The cost differenjce in a cord from 12 to 10 at 6 ft or so would be minor in the grand scheme of things, the difference mostly in a little copper, wholesale, what1$, even now 2 and even at 5 seems it would be cheap to advertise,,, we put a better cord on out machyine than the other guys do. Got to wonder why when they opften upsize internal wires bx beyond their needed load especially when going on circuits above 20A In other words my transformer uses 1/2 the current but they use bigger leads cause its 220 or 221? Its to meet shorts without further protection,,,, now,,, before gitting in a wadd,,, does that mean there might not be further thermal or ALL machines do this,,,,, no but they aint basing all this wire sizing on Joe simpleton opinion about whats legal at a wall. The code book says,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, all this has to comply,,, UL, NEMA, which where,,, kind of irrelevant for this point and understanding all that sounds kind of useless if this isnt understood,,, another missing link.www.urkafarms.comWe got guys wanna splain what they think they know but I am working on what I thought I knew but didnt. Book says not only is this system code but to equipment may be connected to these systems,,, may be standardized by someone else, but its cot to apply. Can connect the clock in the range to a 50A circuit provided the wire going to the fuse is adequate for short circuit of the breaker and followed with fuse adequate to let enuf current pass for operationand small enough to protect wires, think modern xmas lights again with 2A fuse. I dont recall what all the wall warts got in them, they might just blow open in event of a fault but Are actually listed for 20A circuits.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:They dont test every wire to see how much will pass in a test, they start with a wire listed for the app by a standard, maybe nema, maybe another outfit but the code uses the word " recognized" The article on control board recognizes this, says you size all the parts right and all is fine. Doesnt say test a wire and find out all this and then determine,,, says follow the standard. Says, this can be 18, this 16, or the switch rated etc, any parts need to provide adequate fault protection as well as serve the load.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Am I "Willie in Connecticut says UL doesnt know squat"?I don't believe I ever said to anyone UL doesn't know. I said that limitations in NEC can be exceeded if laboratory testing proves no problem exists. For example NEC gives box fill requirements violated by a multitude of UL listed products. There are exceptions to NEC requirements. Manufactured & tested equipment are examples.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Tested against what? There are standards, cant just say, I tested it and it works.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Kind of like a guy wiring a house, doesnt have to have it tested or even engineered, can simply assemble the listed parts as allowed by code. like a lot of audits its pass or fail, do the parts meet listing, check the yes box. Are the wirees sized to meet short circuit, check yes box. Are additional outlets protected if the wire is smaller than 12,,, check yes if it has a fuse like a power strip. Is the fuse a listed part,,, check a box.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Say a guy is making a table lamp, he doesnt have to test it Plug 15A,, yes, cord 16 yes socket listed Edison, yes. Lots of equipment comes with cord bigger than it needs to run it, alarm clock, even minor appliances. Simply sized to meet legal short circuit standards. The mfg doesnt get to simply make it up by saying he tested it, he has to use a minimum wire size. He cant simply say he tested it for fault. He has to follow the rule says no wire smaller than and listed wire in a fixture. There is a code for nema too, this isnt the only one but its kind of king snd the others got to follow. Cant put a cord on something too small it cant be legally connected to 20A circuit. Cant test a way out of that. that is not compliance.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:I would be glad to read something to the effect that we have this set of standards but if you think you can prove it doesnt matter then its ok if you dont follow it. Is that in this code or any other. BEC has jurisdiction over extension cords, describes how they are marked even, has section on cords and plugs, even mentions specific equipment. Says the welder switch must disconnect all ungrounded conductors. Sounds like it doesnt stop at the wall?Last edited by Sberry; 1 Week Ago at 09:24 PM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Look at lamps, portable lamps, appliances, lists a lot about limitations in code about all those. 422.62 describes a lot they must comply with. Tells how motors are rated listed when required, marked and labled, Mfg doesnt deterrmine this and they have to comply.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:III. Motor and Branch-Circuit Overload Protection430.31 General. Part III specifies overload devices intendedto protect motors, motor-control apparatus, and motor branchcircuitconductors against excessive heating due to motoroverloads and failure to start.430.42 Motors on General-Purpose Branch Circuits.Overload protection for motors used on general-purposebranch circuits as permitted in Article 210 shall be providedas specified in 430.42(A), (B), (C), or (D).(B) Over 1 Horsepower. Motors of ratings larger thanspecified in 430.53(A) shall be permitted to be connected togeneral-purpose branch circuits only where each motor is protectedby overload protection selected to protect the motor asspecified in 430.32. Both the controller and the motor overloaddevice shall be approved for group installation with theshort-circuit and ground-fault protective device selected in accordancewith 430.53.(C) Cord-and-Plug-Connected. Where a motor is connectedto a branch circuit by means of an attachment plug anda receptacle or a cord connector, and individual overload protectionis omitted as provided in 430.42(A), the rating of theattachment plug and receptacle or cord connector shall notexceed 15 amperes at 125 volts or 250 volts. Where individualoverload protection is required as provided in 430.42(B) for amotor or motor-operated appliance that is attached to thebranch circuit through an attachment plug and a receptacle ora cord connector, the overload device shall be an integral partof the motor or of the appliance. The rating of the attachmentplug and receptacle or the cord connector shall determine therating of the circuit to which the motor may be connected, asprovided in 210.21(B).
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
We got guys wanna splain what they think they know but I am working on what I thought I knew but didnt. Book says not only is this system code but to equipment may be connected to these systems,,, may be standardized by someone else, but its cot to apply. Can connect the clock in the range to a 50A circuit provided the wire going to the fuse is adequate for short circuit of the breaker and followed with fuse adequate to let enuf current pass for operationand small enough to protect wires, think modern xmas lights again with 2A fuse. I dont recall what all the wall warts got in them, they might just blow open in event of a fault but Are actually listed for 20A circuits.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
Tested against what? There are standards, cant just say, I tested it and it works.
Reply:Show me where that is written? Where does anything say says UL can violate code? UL insures compliance, its not a way to get around it.Last edited by Sberry; 5 Days Ago at 09:15 AM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:(C) Cord-and-Plug-Connected. Where a motor is connectedto a branch circuit by means of an attachment plug anda receptacle or a cord connector, and individual overload protectionis omitted as provided in 430.42(A), the rating of theattachment plug and receptacle or cord connector shall notexceed 15 amperes at 125 volts or 250 volts. Where individualoverload protection is required as provided in 430.42(B) for amotor or motor-operated appliance that is attached to thebranch circuit through an attachment plug and a receptacle ora cord connector, the overload device shall be an integral partof the motor or of the appliance. The rating of the attachmentplug and receptacle or the cord connector shall determine therating of the circuit to which the motor may be connected, asprovided in 210.21(B).
Reply:with theshort-circuit and ground-fault protective device selected in accordancewith 430.53. Doesnt have a work around for this. Doesnt say some outfit can say its ok if they feel like it.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:
Not everything UL listed has EVER even been tested. UL can approve a manufacturer and they are free to install UL labels on anything they build even completely new assemblies never before been tested because they are building to a set of standards. If they meet those standards, they are UL listed equipment.
Reply:It has to have the right cord on it and correct end. They can't simply put a 50 end on a lamp cord cause it won't overheat the wire. I agree they might not need to test every piece, it eludes to this in both code and a couple other links. I keep referring to the control.board link was on here somewhere, says, if the instructions are followed, the load calc, the sizing for short and parts rated for that, say a light switch then it can be done by design and really doesn't require a test. Same for any legal wiring, simply done following code and good share of it doesn't even require a drawing. Approved recept, wire and breaker doesn't require engineering.Last edited by Sberry; 5 Days Ago at 02:10 PM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:The standard itself needs to be fundamentally code compliant. Code goes on at length about motors and controls may be installed in equipment and even describes the nature of the cord and different forms of ocpd required.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:The code fundamentally says, can't build something not legal to be plugged in to it. It charges other agencies to do it and allows it to be qualified by approved design. I agree a mfg could build a lamp without agency testing of the particular unit if it meets standard.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:https://righthandindustrial.com/the-...installations/https://righthandindustrial.com/unde...ire-and-cable/Last edited by danielplace; 5 Days Ago at 02:33 PM.
Reply:Part of the listed mfg would be that he agree to use a wire listed for both load but to meet short circuit. Much of the world's appliance wire isn't undersized but over. A torpedo heater, draws 4A, has 15 plug and 16 wire. In order to meet listing has to have fault for the circuit it connected to. Simple as that.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:I agree with both those links, I dont see the contradiction with my point, actually makes it in both of those. I would look at the Holdt link but it doesnt click and I am not going to ferret it out, good link and I will gladly read it.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
I agree with both those links, I dont see the contradiction with my point, actually makes it in both of those. I would look at the Holdt link but it doesnt click and I am not going to ferret it out, good link and I will gladly read it.
Reply:That is a thread worth reading, good link. Could pick a lot of points from there. One was, they tell where if failed and can suggest how it could comply. This might be,,, adding a fuse, upsizing wire for fault etc.Last edited by Sberry; 5 Days Ago at 08:10 PM.www.urkafarms.com |
|
发表于 2022-9-16 15:52:22