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I once had a Honda snow thrower frame that needed a weld fix after a tree fell on it and bent the handles. People were too busy, I couldnt fine anyone who could do it and winter was coming to the mountains of Utah where I live and I couldnt wait any longer. So I purchased a Hobart 140, only had access to 120 volts.I flux cored it. Looks horrible but first weld I ever made and its held together for 6 year now and living at 8000 feet with 25 feet of snow each year, I work this machine hard. I now have a gas bottle. Last week I had to butt weld 2 pieces together. Got some scrap and started to practice. The wild was horrible, bubbles looked line mini Swiss cheese. OBVIOUSLY not acceptable even for me. So I got more scrap and went back to more practice before my project.Out of curiosity, I wondered how that first horrible weld really was from a structural point of view. So I clamped it down in a vice and went at it with a 6 pound hammer. I expect it to snap in half on the first impact. But I pounded and pounded on it and no part of the weld broke. The steel started to bend over at the clap point on the vice on the worst looking weld ever made my anyone but not one crack in the weld.Now, I understand a Pro is always working toward perfection or 99 percent of it. A pro wants it to be perfect. I will never be a pro. I just need to fix stuff now and then and need it to hold. My first flux core weld on my snow thrower frame is still holding 6 years later. So Im wondering how to determine if a weld for a trailer fix is good enough when I see an obvious spot of porosity?
Reply:4 paragraphs about a crappy weld on a snowblower handle And then you throw in A cryptic question about a trailer??You dont give us much to work with. But using my vast Spidey sense,And your past booger weld historyI would say NODo not attempt to make any repairs or welds on a trailer where you are possibly putting other people in danger.Miller 211Hypertherm PM 451961 Lincoln Idealarc 250HTP 221 True Wisdom only comes from Pain.
Reply:Sorry if the post was vague, but I'm still not sure what I'm seeing in all this making it difficult to analysis results, I have a weld that has a section of porosity. Lets say 10 inches is okay, then for some reason I get a bad section. It looks bad but if I pound on it with a sledge hammer and it does not break, is it really a problem? It would be for a pro who earns 100,000 a year and wants to deliver nothing but the best, but what about just a fix on something. I'm not doing structural welds on a building and never will. I just need to know if I'm in the ball park. I often grind down a test weld looking for cracks or holes but don't really know what I'm looking for so I bend and smash thing to see if they break. The snow thrower was just example of weld that looked terrible but it's held for years and years. A pro would have never accepted it. All the videos on a place like weld.com are helpful but it's all about some kind of perfection. Why did the worst solid core weld you have ever seen not crack/break when hit it 20 time with a 6 pound hammer? Other then it looking horrible, if it doesn't break what's the problem? I'm not suggesting I would accept something like a weld where I forgot to turn the gas on but how bad is it? Is it only 50 percent the strength of a perfect weld, or is 75 or 80 percent?So if I have a 3 inch butt weld with the gas turned off with a million holes it and it I can't break it, how bad is it? So I turn the gas on and I do another 4 inch weld and only have a bubble or 2 in 2 places. is that a real problem? If I couldn't smash the horrible one apart wouldn't just a few spots of porosity be not much of a problem? The basic question was how do I tell if something is okay. Videos always point out bad spots but do not really indicate what the resulting problems will be under load. Like I said, a Pro wants perfection and I understand that. But if I can't seem to get things perfect, what is acceptable? I don't have a feel for it.Now people could say, let a Pro do it. Well Utah has had explosive growth for years now. Getting anyone to look at anything is really difficult because their backlogs are huge. So I need to develop the skill to get things done to the point they are okay. I'm not suggesting I would do a weld on a trailer with holes all over it. When I watch videos on weld.com which are almost all great, they mostly just say why a particular weld in is not perfect. I have never seen them take what they consider a bad weld and try to break it under load to show what the negatives are.From the tone of your reply, I get the feeling you are probably and accomplished welder. It is easy to forget that a new comer is often so low in knowledge that it makes it difficult to even ask the right question since the total amount we need to know is so larger. No one was born knowing how to play guitar, weld or write software, at the being it difficult to even know what questions to ask.So, I'm trying to learn to do things my self but don't really know when something is good enough to get by. Got to start somewhere, sorry for what was a poor post and so long, I won't bother anyone else and will fine another source.
Reply:Best of luck. And welcome to Welding Web.Miller 211Hypertherm PM 451961 Lincoln Idealarc 250HTP 221 True Wisdom only comes from Pain.
Reply:Welcome to the group Dave
Originally Posted by smokey9701
I once had a Honda snow thrower frame that needed a weld fix after a tree fell on it and bent the handles. People were too busy, I couldnt fine anyone who could do it and winter was coming to the mountains of Utah where I live and I couldnt wait any longer. So I purchased a Hobart 140, only had access to 120 volts.I flux cored it. Looks horrible but first weld I ever made and its held together for 6 year now and living at 8000 feet with 25 feet of snow each year, I work this machine hard. I now have a gas bottle. Last week I had to butt weld 2 pieces together. Got some scrap and started to practice. The wild was horrible, bubbles looked line mini Swiss cheese. OBVIOUSLY not acceptable even for me. So I got more scrap and went back to more practice before my project.Out of curiosity, I wondered how that first horrible weld really was from a structural point of view. So I clamped it down in a vice and went at it with a 6 pound hammer. I expect it to snap in half on the first impact. But I pounded and pounded on it and no part of the weld broke. The steel started to bend over at the clap point on the vice on the worst looking weld ever made my anyone but not one crack in the weld.Now, I understand a Pro is always working toward perfection or 99 percent of it. A pro wants it to be perfect. I will never be a pro. I just need to fix stuff now and then and need it to hold. My first flux core weld on my snow thrower frame is still holding 6 years later. So Im wondering how to determine if a weld for a trailer fix is good enough when I see an obvious spot of porosity?
Reply:If using flux core if looks good it is good.If using solid wire a good weld me be cold.Dave
Originally Posted by smokey9701
I once had a Honda snow thrower frame that needed a weld fix after a tree fell on it and bent the handles. People were too busy, I couldnt fine anyone who could do it and winter was coming to the mountains of Utah where I live and I couldnt wait any longer. So I purchased a Hobart 140, only had access to 120 volts.I flux cored it. Looks horrible but first weld I ever made and its held together for 6 year now and living at 8000 feet with 25 feet of snow each year, I work this machine hard. I now have a gas bottle. Last week I had to butt weld 2 pieces together. Got some scrap and started to practice. The wild was horrible, bubbles looked line mini Swiss cheese. OBVIOUSLY not acceptable even for me. So I got more scrap and went back to more practice before my project.Out of curiosity, I wondered how that first horrible weld really was from a structural point of view. So I clamped it down in a vice and went at it with a 6 pound hammer. I expect it to snap in half on the first impact. But I pounded and pounded on it and no part of the weld broke. The steel started to bend over at the clap point on the vice on the worst looking weld ever made my anyone but not one crack in the weld.Now, I understand a Pro is always working toward perfection or 99 percent of it. A pro wants it to be perfect. I will never be a pro. I just need to fix stuff now and then and need it to hold. My first flux core weld on my snow thrower frame is still holding 6 years later. So Im wondering how to determine if a weld for a trailer fix is good enough when I see an obvious spot of porosity?
Reply:You are not going to get a reply you like on this forum from a question along the lines of "how crappy of a weld is OK". If you are willing to read and search you can find much of the information you are looking for, at least in terms of how poor welding techniques can effect weld integrity. Until you learn what makes a good weld vs a bad one (and how to make a good one), do what I do. Understand the criticality of the joint in terms of "what happens if the joint breaks". If you are doing farm welding on snow blower handles or fixing things that will not cause injury if they fail, then weld quality is not as important as applications where failure would result in injury or death. If that injury or death involves other people that are not part of the "good enough" decision then weld quality is of the utmost importance and the weldment has to be as strong and durable as the base metal your are joining. If you want to learn from the folks here - get some scrap and practice till you think you are making a fair looking weld, then post pictures with the settings you used and ask opinions of how they look. Also read up on how to section and etch welds so you can cut and polish to see what kind of penetration you are getting.Tweco Fabricator 211iSieg X2 AMT radial arm drill pressAMT belt/disk sanderHF 4X6 bandsaw
Reply:
Originally Posted by jrporter
You are not going to get a reply you like on this forum from a question along the lines of "how crappy of a weld is OK". If you are willing to read and search you can find much of the information you are looking for, at least in terms of how poor welding techniques can effect weld integrity. Until you learn what makes a good weld vs a bad one (and how to make a good one), do what I do. Understand the criticality of the joint in terms of "what happens if the joint breaks". If you are doing farm welding on snow blower handles or fixing things that will not cause injury if they fail, then weld quality is not as important as applications where failure would result in injury or death. If that injury or death involves other people that are not part of the "good enough" decision then weld quality is of the utmost importance and the weldment has to be as strong and durable as the base metal your are joining. If you want to learn from the folks here - get some scrap and practice till you think you are making a fair looking weld, then post pictures with the settings you used and ask opinions of how they look. Also read up on how to section and etch welds so you can cut and polish to see what kind of penetration you are getting.
Reply:Im not sure what the whole point is. Somehow I think youre trying to convince yourself that sh*tty looking welds are or can be OKWhich can sometimes be true but most of the time the answer is no. I also take umbrage with the chosen terminology of artworkSure there are guys that try very hard at getting that perfect stack of dimes. But that doesnt necessarily make a strong structural weld. A pretty weld is not always a strong weld. But that said, A good weld should absolutely look a certain way. And in my opinion, if you are seeing any type of porosity in your weld It gets an F minusWhich means fail. Unless of course its a snow blower handle. LoL
But as far as artwork or a good looking weld, all that comes with experience. Once you get the fundamentals down Then, to amuse yourself you can manipulate the puddle to make a nice pretty weld to impress all your neighbors and friends.Miller 211Hypertherm PM 451961 Lincoln Idealarc 250HTP 221 True Wisdom only comes from Pain.
Reply:I don't know that I think anyone can easily tell you what to look for. Some of it you would see as your welding. Maybe the best further advice I could give is to build a bend test jig and as was mentioned cut and etch some test welds you've made. You'll see if they are well penetrated etc. Spend some time welding test bars and testing them and the differences will become clearer for you. You'll see what worked well and what didn't. Keep records of the variables and settings and electrode used to show which choices are an improvement and which ones are a detriment. Eventually you'll know what a good weld looks like and how you made it.---Meltedmetal
Reply:It is simple for stick, flux core, torch and tig by looking at the weld. It looks good it is a good weld by layer. The simple rule is double the weld for any error not seen or xray the weld.Mig can look good but may not be good but is the cheapest of all the welding. Xray will show this error but it makes the weld having to xray . Dave
Originally Posted by Meltedmetal
I don't know that I think anyone can easily tell you what to look for. Some of it you would see as your welding. Maybe the best further advice I could give is to build a bend test jig and as was mentioned cut and etch some test welds you've made. You'll see if they are well penetrated etc. Spend some time welding test bars and testing them and the differences will become clearer for you. You'll see what worked well and what didn't. Keep records of the variables and settings and electrode used to show which choices are an improvement and which ones are a detriment. Eventually you'll know what a good weld looks like and how you made it.
Reply:There's no such simple rule of doubling the weld size. Any weld thickness greater than the thinner parent metal in the joint is a waste of weld, serves no purpose and probably introduces stress raisers. The simple rule is to get it right.
Reply:Try California steel fabratoin laws.Live by rules till about 2004.Ok It is not a rule it is only the law.Dave
Originally Posted by Woznme
There's no such simple rule of doubling the weld size. Any weld thickness greater than the thinner parent metal in the joint is a waste of weld, serves no purpose and probably introduces stress raisers. The simple rule is to get it right.
Reply:The law is on engineering side of welding and found in steel engineering hand books.A welder would not see that part it would only be show to do that weld that way. It would not even be said on the drawing only in Calcs.Dave
Originally Posted by Woznme
There's no such simple rule of doubling the weld size. Any weld thickness greater than the thinner parent metal in the joint is a waste of weld, serves no purpose and probably introduces stress raisers. The simple rule is to get it right.
Reply:Not quite sure what you're on about Dave. You mention state laws and hand books, none of which you are referencing.For me with good welding design and practice I only go with standards like:Australian Standards AS1554 and 4041ASME1XAWSEuropean equivalents.None of them say "if you've made a crappy weld, leave it there and double up on it".If you know of handbooks and laws that say it, please identify them so we can all have a look.
Reply:I have not been doing that work for almost 20 years. But did not follow the law all welds had done by a cert welder and inspected in shop .Dave
Originally Posted by Woznme
Not quite sure what you're on about Dave. You mention state laws and hand books, none of which you are referencing.For me with good welding design and practice I only go with standards like:Australian Standards AS1554 and 4041ASME1XAWSEuropean equivalents.None of them say "if you've made a crappy weld, leave it there and double up on it".If you know of handbooks and laws that say it, please identify them so we can all have a look.
Reply:I don't wish to offend, Dave.Personal opinion: I wouldn't recommend non-standard welding procedure if I wasn't qualified or certified to do it. Especially if the result could be undesirable.It's ok for small works of art maybe but I'm not an artsy kind of guy.
Reply:License shops can do that work without cert welders in California. Dave
Originally Posted by Woznme
I don't wish to offend, Dave.Personal opinion: I wouldn't recommend non-standard welding procedure if I wasn't qualified or certified to do it. Especially if the result could be undesirable.It's ok for small works of art maybe but I'm not an artsy kind of guy.
Reply:A 120 volt 140 amp welder operated by a novice on a trailer that will be towed down a road is a NO GO, it's completely possible to lay a beautiful bead with a mig maching that has absolutely no penetration, it's also possible to lay a crappy beat with no penetration. That $300 snow blower is a far cry from ANY trailer that you will tow down the road. Do yourself a favor and hire the job done or get training & a proper welder for the job.NRA LIFE MEMBERUNITWELD 175 AMP 3 IN1 DCMIDSTATES 300 AMP AC MACHINELET'S GO BRANDON!"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. BENJAMIN FRANKLIN
Reply:
Originally Posted by smokey9701
I once had a Honda snow thrower frame that needed a weld fix after a tree fell on it and bent the handles. People were too busy, I couldn’t fine anyone who could do it and winter was coming to the mountains of Utah where I live and I couldn’t wait any longer. So I purchased a Hobart 140, only had access to 120 volts.I flux cored it. Looks horrible but first weld I ever made and it’s held together for 6 year now and living at 8000 feet with 25 feet of snow each year, I work this machine hard. I now have a gas bottle. Last week I had to butt weld 2 pieces together. Got some scrap and started to practice. The wild was horrible, bubbles looked line mini Swiss cheese. OBVIOUSLY not acceptable even for me. So I got more scrap and went back to more practice before my project.Out of curiosity, I wondered how that first horrible weld really was from a structural point of view. So I clamped it down in a vice and went at it with a 6 pound hammer. I expect it to snap in half on the first impact. But I pounded and pounded on it and no part of the weld broke. The steel started to bend over at the clap point on the vice on the worst looking weld ever made my anyone but not one crack in the weld.Now, I understand a Pro is always working toward perfection or 99 percent of it. A pro wants it to be perfect. I will never be a pro. I just need to fix stuff now and then and need it to hold. My first flux core weld on my snow thrower frame is still holding 6 years later. So I’m wondering how to determine if a weld for a trailer fix is good enough when I see an obvious spot of porosity?
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
License shops can do that work without cert welders in California. Dave
Reply:One more thing. "Good enough" IS NOT what you're aiming for. You want the welded joint to be as strong as the metal that you're joining. Anything less is a bad weld and can be dangerous. As others have said - if there is a chance that someone who wasn't a part of the "good enough" decision making process getting hurt - it NEEDS to be a proper weld. Porosity IS NOT acceptable in that case. Grind down and start over. Weld as hot as you can without blowing through. Undercut isn't acceptable, either. You NEED to have good tie in, too. NO slag inclusions. Also, it sounds like you didn't have enough shielding gas flow. You also need to reverse your polarity if you're welding MIG vs FCAW.
Reply:I can see it,,,, but I am never turning it up to get it hot enough, I am turning it down to keep from blowing a hole in it.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Basically if weld looks good it is a good weld but there maybe a unseen flaw to weld so double weld for safety. This has been around for a very long time. If look at drawings you can see this from the welding symbols. They add extra weld and this why for a margin of welder error. Dave
Originally Posted by Woznme
I wasn't talking about shops in California, l was talking about your comments.
Reply:
Originally Posted by John T
But that said, A good weld should absolutely look a certain way.
Originally Posted by Munkul
Absolutely, but I'd add to this also, that welds that look a certain way are absolutely bad welds.HTH
Reply:I was joking.... Sort of.Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
Basically if weld looks good it is a good weld but there maybe a unseen flaw to weld so double weld for safety. This has been around for a very long time. If look at drawings you can see this from the welding symbols. They add extra weld and this why for a margin of welder error. Dave
Reply:A stick weld that looks good, generally is. You don't get a good looking stick weld unless the heat is right.A flux core weld is about the same. They don't look very good unless the heat is right.A MIG weld is pretty damn close to the others in terms of being good at a glance. I know that I run MIG down, but if you really look close, you can tell if a MIG weld is bad. It is a very good process if you know what to look for............mostly a good understanding of what the toes should look like. IMHO, it's a less forgiving process, but that's just my opinion. Get it right, and it'll hold the Earth.
Reply:I think we may have scared him off. Oops.
Reply:
Originally Posted by 52 Ford
I think we may have scared him off. Oops.
Reply:Don't know why, we've stayed on topic mostly. In between we've just shut down bs practices and bs advice.
Reply:No problem. If want to see examples of the type of weld you see it on most buildings.It is a larger amount (hump) more that need. Typically You do not see this on ag equipment they do need to complies to any standards. Dave
Originally Posted by Woznme
Don't know why, we've stayed on topic mostly. In between we've just shut down bs practices and bs advice.
Reply:Here photo I fount internet. If see hump they add extra weld.Dave https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.953b1fc5...&r=0&PC=EMMX01
Originally Posted by Woznme
Don't know why, we've stayed on topic mostly. In between we've just shut down bs practices and bs advice.
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
No problem. If want to see examples of the type of weld you see it on most buildings.It is a larger amount (hump) more that need. You do not see this on ag equipment they do need to complies to any standards. Dave
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
Here photo I fount internet. If see hump they add extra weld.Dave https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.953b1fc5...&r=0&PC=EMMX01
Reply:I'm suspecting you know very little about welding even though you post up advice on most threads. You did say you were unqualified, right?Is that why you got banned from WW? I don't know cause I wasn't around then.
Reply:I am highly qualified I spent over 40 years including engineering and construction. Dave PS sounds like you trying to troll
Originally Posted by Woznme
I'm suspecting you know very little about welding even though you post up advice on most threads. You did say you were unqualified, right?Is that why you got banned from WW? I don't know cause I wasn't around then.
Reply:You all might find this interesting - I found this in one of my old text books (Shigley, "Mechanical Engineering Design"). Their technique for analyzing the strength of butt joints is to ignore the "hump" (they call it the reinforcement), and say the following about it - "Note that the value of h does not include the reinforcement. The reinforcement can be desirable, but it varies somewhat and does produce stress concentration at point A in the figure. If fatigue loads exist, it is good practice to grind or machine off the reinforcement.". There is undoubtedly some strength gained by the "hump" but at least one source is saying to ignore it when figuring joint strength. For reference, the allowable load "F" is determined by height times length times strength of deposited material (in psi).
Tweco Fabricator 211iSieg X2 AMT radial arm drill pressAMT belt/disk sanderHF 4X6 bandsaw
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
I am highly qualified I spent over 40 years including engineering and construction. Dave PS sounds like you trying to troll
Reply:Looks great 👍 Dave
Originally Posted by jrporter
You all might find this interesting - I found this in one of my old text books (Shigley, "Mechanical Engineering Design"). Their technique for analyzing the strength of butt joints is to ignore the "hump" (they call it the reinforcement), and say the following about it - "Note that the value of h does not include the reinforcement. The reinforcement can be desirable, but it varies somewhat and does produce stress concentration at point A in the figure. If fatigue loads exist, it is good practice to grind or machine off the reinforcement.". There is undoubtedly some strength gained by the "hump" but at least one source is saying to ignore it when figuring joint strength. For reference, the allowable load "F" is determined by height times length times strength of deposited material (in psi).
Reply:
Originally Posted by jrporter
You all might find this interesting - I found this in one of my old text books (Shigley, "Mechanical Engineering Design"). Their technique for analyzing the strength of butt joints is to ignore the "hump" (they call it the reinforcement), and say the following about it - "Note that the value of h does not include the reinforcement. The reinforcement can be desirable, but it varies somewhat and does produce stress concentration at point A in the figure. If fatigue loads exist, it is good practice to grind or machine off the reinforcement.". There is undoubtedly some strength gained by the "hump" but at least one source is saying to ignore it when figuring joint strength. For reference, the allowable load "F" is determined by height times length times strength of deposited material (in psi).
Reply:First off, if you are seeing porous welds(porosity), you have to look at contributing factors that cause porosity such as inadequate gas flow(what cfh are you running on your gas bottle?); dirty base metal( oil,paint residue, mill scale etc); clogged up diffuser or bad liner on your gun/whip, excessive travel angle( what’s your travel angle looking like?). There are a few other factors but check the aforementioned first. Secondly, while it is true a pretty weld doesn’t always mean a structurally sound weld. Most of the time,if the settings are good and weld technique is sound. You can produce sexy welds that meet WPS Specs(code). I have done structural welding and my welds are beautiful and passed inspection by a CWI and I never worried bout the “moment of truth” that is after a part has been powder coated and the welds are exposed to see discontinuities( undercut, porosity, incomplete fusion;etc). When you welded on your snow blower it wasn’t critical and depending on what thickness your base metal was your unsavory weld fused and held. I am guessing the material you welded on was 1/8th thickness. But on a trailer, porosity will cause stress fractures and crack when under load and the tensional strength integrity will be compromised. Porosity is a huge no no. Grind off all porosity and before you re-weld the joint, make sure that you get scrap metal of the same material thickness and type of joint geometry(groove weld, butt weld etc) and do a few practice weld to make sure your gas flow is adequate, travel and work angle are good, stick out is good, and once you get a good looking weld then go ahead and proceed with the trailer. When it comes to trailers, handrails, building columns , and all structural based welding you must adhere to code work and make sure your welds are strong with no defects. Hope this helps you bro. The fact you posted shows you care and I won’t bash any one who wants to improve their weld game.Last edited by EJOrtiz; 04-05-2022 at 03:01 AM.
Reply:This is an example of a bad weld, done by a skylight manufacturer (not me)
Reply:
Originally Posted by henry42
This is an example of a bad weld, done by a skylight manufacturer (not me)
Reply:
Originally Posted by John T
Yeah I can see more than one problem there.(besides the crack)
Reply:It is a problem with rod burners. They where had schooling from the College in how to weld only. This was a problem first seen in the North Ridge earthquake on steel buildings. They could lay a good looking weld which the inspector took as a good weld. Dave
Originally Posted by John T
Yeah I can see more than one problem there.(besides the crack)
Reply:From one amateur to another, I've been searching for the same answer. I will hopefully be attending a welding school in a few months that will give me some better experience and knowledge. I think with welding, having someone who knows their stuff be there with you would be ideal, but that's feasible for all of us, all the time. The general consensus I've found is that, if you have to ask if it's a good weld, or you're not sure one way or another, assume it's not. LOL. I joke, a little... I'm in the same boat sort of. I have a 110v flux core welder (not mig). I can make two pieces of metal stick together. Sometimes it looks better than others. I can tell from the backside of my work that I'm getting good heat penetration. I'd feel pretty confident fixing a kids bike, or building a welding cart (a project I hope to start in the next couple of weeks). I have a utility trailer that I haul a Polaris Rzr on that needs a new a-frame tongue and coupler welded on. I'd love to try it, but when it comes down to it, it's not worth taking a chance of my trailer breaking and rolling over with my RZR, or Heaven forbid, being on a highway and it coming loose and hitting another car and who knows what could happen. If it was a lawn cart, I'd give it a go. Something for hauling a ton or more at 70mph.... I'll pay a couple hundred bucks and have a pro do it. Maybe after my class and a lot more practice I'll feel differently, but for now, I don't trust my own work.Just remember, just because you can't bend it by hand or break it after a few blows with a hammer, it doesn't mean it's a good weld and will hold up. |
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发表于 2022-5-19 11:02:58