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I'm wiring my shop and I want to make sure I'm not messing up since I have very little electrical experience. The only thing I've ever wired was my house(two 225 amp panels) this past summer. Called 8 electricians and couldn't get anyone to do the job(and I'm a home builder). I do prefer to leave electrical work to the professionals where possible.I have seen various recommended wire gauges and breaker sizes in my research for running the welder circuits. I decided to call Miller yesterday and the tech I talked to said to use 12 gauge wire and a 30 amp breaker. That sounds awful small to me. Do any of y'all have recommendations on wire/breaker size that you have used?I don't want to use too big of a breaker but I wouldn't mind over sizing the wire to mitigate voltage drop. I'll probably have a 100' run, a couple 60' runs and a 20' run.Thanks
Reply:According to the Miller manual, 12 gauge and 30 amp is sufficient. I have run my 211 on 50 amp circuit for over 10 years. It is wired with 6 gauge with 6-50R receptacle. That gives you sufficient power and standard outlet for any future machines. Technically you are allowed to derate welding circuits to lighter gauge wire due to intermittent cycle but it makes sense to me to spend the money for standard wire size as the cost difference is not much compared to effort to install the circuit.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:If I wiring a shop I would run a 50 or 60 amp 240 volt line. This saves money later on wiring. This can also be done by using a larger conduit size of 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" and still use 10 Guage wire later you pull a larger wire.FYI the NEC calls out 10 ga for 30 amp plug.Dave
Originally Posted by shelby
I'm wiring my shop and I want to make sure I'm not messing up since I have very little electrical experience. The only thing I've ever wired was my house(two 225 amp panels) this past summer. Called 8 electricians and couldn't get anyone to do the job(and I'm a home builder). I do prefer to leave electrical work to the professionals where possible.I have seen various recommended wire gauges and breaker sizes in my research for running the welder circuits. I decided to call Miller yesterday and the tech I talked to said to use 12 gauge wire and a 30 amp breaker. That sounds awful small to me. Do any of y'all have recommendations on wire/breaker size that you have used?I don't want to use too big of a breaker but I wouldn't mind over sizing the wire to mitigate voltage drop. I'll probably have a 100' run, a couple 60' runs and a 20' run.Thanks
Reply:The Miller spec is the minimum, nothing stops you from going bigger. Like wise why not just go with #6 and 50 amps for future versatility?Miller Challenger 172Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150Miller Maxstar 150 STLVictor 100CVictor JourneymanOxweld OAHarris O/ASmith O/A little torchNo, that's not my car.
Reply:I agreeI put in my garage a sub panel with 60 amps it does supply kitchen but I can install a 50 amp breaker. The cost of installation is about same for 30 amp as it for 60 amp. It just cost of wire Dave
Originally Posted by bigb
The Miller spec is the minimum, nothing stops you from going bigger. Like wise why not just go with #6 and 50 amps for future versatility?
Reply:Dedicated circuits for welders have a different section in the National Electric Code that applies to them. The code recognizes that welders operate on a duty cycle and do not operate continuously. As a result, the wire sizes required by code are much smaller than those for a non-dedicated circuit that could have lets say a continuous resistive load applied (like a water heater or a dryer or a range). The code for a dedicated welding circuit also allows for the the breaker to be oversized by as much as 200% relative to the wire size. There is a specific formula to be followed. But suffice to say that for a dedicated welder, the information from Miller is correct, and it is quite different than normal circuit sizing. I used to run my Syncrowave 250 on 6 gauge wire and a 110 amp breaker. That machine drew 92 amps on max output of 310 amps. I never had a problem and I tried to stress it out a time or two. Now there may be some logic for designing a larger circuit if you plan to use other welders or a plasma cutter on that same circuit. But if all you will ever do is run that welder, you are fine with 12 gaugeMiller Multimatic 255
Reply:The latest on NEC is 12 ga max amperage is 20 amps.Dave
Originally Posted by Louie1961
Dedicated circuits for welders have a different section in the National Electric Code that applies to them. The code recognizes that welders operate on a duty cycle and do not operate continuously. As a result, the wire sizes required by code are much smaller than those for a non-dedicated circuit that could have lets say a continuous resistive load applied (like a water heater or a dryer or a range). The code for a dedicated welding circuit also allows for the the breaker to be oversized by as much as 200% relative to the wire size. There is a specific formula to be followed. But suffice to say that for a dedicated welder, the information from Miller is correct, and it is quite different than normal circuit sizing. I used to run my Syncrowave 250 on 6 gauge wire and a 110 amp breaker. That machine drew 92 amps on max output of 310 amps. I never had a problem and I tried to stress it out a time or two. Now there may be some logic for designing a larger circuit if you plan to use other welders or a plasma cutter on that same circuit. But if all you will ever do is run that welder, you are fine with 12 gauge
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
The latest on NEC is 12 ga max amperage is 20 amps.Dave
Reply:I know I just did not go into details Thank you Dave
Originally Posted by bigb
The small conductor rule (which used to apply to #14, #12 & #10 copper conductors but since 2008 also now includes #16 and #18 conductors) has exceptions, one of them being for electric welding equipment. I am aware of no changes to the exceptions, even under the latest edition which is 2020. If you are aware of a change to the exceptions please post a link.
Reply:
Originally Posted by bigb
Like wise why not just go with #6 and 50 amps for future versatility?
Reply:A dialarc is not sposed to use a 50 recept due to the fact it needs a breaker bigger than 50. Circuits zbove 50 should be direct wired. A 211 allows 14 if single circuit in pipe if breaker is limited to 30. 12 in pipe would allow a 12 wire. The 12/30 Miller suggested would be good cable or pipe, could go to 10 cable and up to 50 for that machine and buzzers if you wanted. I install them 10/30 with the possibility of going to 50 but,,,,, its never fricken happened. If i get a 300 synchro i gonna run a circuit for it and keep my small circuit for the machine its intended for.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:To tell the truth all the future proof is kind of amateur to some extent. Its done by smart people but based on faulty demand estimate. Why buy a 211 or modrrn welder just to run a wire 4 code sizes better than it needs A 10 is 2 sizes bigger and would run 2 at once.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:The future propf assumes the future changer would follow all aspects of a different circuit not just change breaker. Code also hp limits this recept to 3 making it not fit 5 hp comps. 12 cable at 240 will run a 211 like its home.If i was splurging might go 10 if it was convenient.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:You never know But run a lager conduit let say 11/4" you run larger wire later. Maybe 100 amps for larger dark side welder.Dave
Originally Posted by whtbaron
Yep, never know when you might cross the border to the dark side and snag yourself a big ol' Dialarc...
Reply:I appreciate all the replies.Looks like I'll be good(and oversized) running 10/3 with ground. The shop is 40' deep by 68' wide. The load center is going in the middle of the left side wall, I plan on having a receptacle for the welder in the middle of each wall. I like the idea of going bigger than 10/3 with the wire but cost becomes a factor. 250' of 10/3 is $430. 250' of 8/3 is $802. 250' of 6/3 is $1,014.I do like the idea of future proofing, but this should be my last hoorah. Worst case scenario, it's a truss roof so running a new circuit would be easy.
Reply:Sorry Dave but that is incorrect for a dedicated welder circuit.Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:
Originally Posted by shelby
I appreciate all the replies.Looks like I'll be good(and oversized) running 10/3 with ground. The shop is 40' deep by 68' wide. The load center is going in the middle of the left side wall, I plan on having a receptacle for the welder in the middle of each wall. I like the idea of going bigger than 10/3 with the wire but cost becomes a factor. 250' of 10/3 is $430. 250' of 8/3 is $802. 250' of 6/3 is $1,014.I do like the idea of future proofing, but this should be my last hoorah. Worst case scenario, it's a truss roof so running a new circuit would be easy.
Reply:If was a industrial zone and over 10ga you can adjust for duty cycle. But this does not sound like a industry use. Also see below on bigb post.Dave
Originally Posted by Louie1961
Sorry Dave but that is incorrect for a dedicated welder circuit.
Reply:You need 10/2. Buy a roll and can do all those. Some of the breakers even take 2 wires. I just did o e, used ac cable, 12 and landed both wires on a 30. But a 10 is really good for these machines. It gives them all the help from the circuit they can get. No advantage to any more and it wont work any better. The most likely additions are dc buzzers or heavier wire feed and a 10 will run heavier feed with some limitations mainly for duty cycle. I have a couple convenience outlets away from the main. They are what they are for. I dont need 100A welder service everywhere, i have a 300 synchro but dont need to use it in a far cornerLast edited by Sberry; 4 Hours Ago at 11:05 PM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:I have run welders using a 12ga wire extension core.Wire prices are high today. Dave
Originally Posted by Sberry
You need 10/2. Buy a roll and can do all those. Some of the breakers even take 2 wires. I just did o e, used ac cable, 12 and landed both wires on a 30. |
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发表于 2021-12-17 15:51:17