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I saw this on Pinterest and it is something I want to try and make a version of.
I'm nothing more than a flux core welder wielding hobbyist that has been tinkering for a year or two at most - so EVERYTHING I do is an experiment/learning experience.This is a beam I picked up at a scrap yard - roughly 4" x 6" x 10' long:
I guesstimated the sections to be cut and arrived at 1", 2", 3" and 4-1/2" - the number of each dictated by the count on the original:
Reply:Would have been much better not to have a galvanized beam. Breathing galvanized fumes is very bad. You need to have a proper respirator and exhaust in your shop/garage. Does the scrap yard have any non galvanized beams? You would be far better off considering the amount of work required to the beam. A couple cuts and welds on galvanized is one thing but you're looking at extensive cutting and welding for your project. The last thing you need is zinc chills.
Reply:I plan on using a portaband saw to make the cuts, through the top flange, through the web, stopping just as I get to the bottom flange.Question #1: What tooth type/count and FPM would you recommend to make the cuts?Once (if) all the cuts are made, comes the hard part - bending each piece by spreading the cuts apart - how to do it.I don't have a torch kit, but if the consensus is that it will be required to make the bends, then it's on the procurement table with my war department.Question #2:Since the cuts/blades are only 0.020" wide, I'm not sure what method would work or not.* A 3lb hand sledge and good aim?* Some kind of steel wedge to pound into the cut to start to spread it open?* A long stout prybar to beat into the cut and try to muscle it open?My layperson's thoughts include:* It's probably the lightest I-beam I've come across, hell I can lift and carry the thing around fairly easily.* The flanges are not particularly thick or beefy, seems to be as noob-friendly as a beam could be.But every project and effort I've done has brought unforeseen surprises, this time I'm hoping this forum and it's members may be able to warn me off about things I hadn't thought of.Thanks for looking and thanks in advance for any and all thoughts, ideas, and advice.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Welder Dave
Would have been much better not to have a galvanized beam. Breathing galvanized fumes is very bad. You need to have a proper respirator and exhaust in your shop/garage. Does the scrap yard have any non galvanized beams? You would be far better off considering the amount of work required to the beam. A couple cuts and welds on galvanized is one thing but you're looking at extensive cutting and welding for your project. The last thing you need is zinc chills.
Reply:It looks like the one you're trying to copy each individual section is welded. Would be good to have a table to lay it out on.
Reply:Shootr
Originally Posted by Shootr
. . . so EVERYTHING I do is an experiment/learning experience . . .
Reply:I looked at the photo for a while and it looks like there wasn't any bending involved at all. I counted approximately 41 I Beam slices that were then welded back together to form the "Nautilus". You will observe the bottom flange has weld on them. If bending was incorporated then there would be no need to weld on bottom flange. Just my .02
Reply:I also looks as if the beam only comprises a small portion of sections like 5 chunks? Then it spreads wider. Seems mathematical?As stated there is no bending done there. And the sculpture is more complex than a so glad beamI would cut. Form a template(s) and weld. Where a respirator and use a fan outside you should be fine.You did state a "version of"... So carry onGood luckLast edited by tapwelder; 05-27-2020 at 03:30 AM.
Reply:As others have noted, the original is cut and welded, not bent. Bending .20" thick steel isn't hard, though it's a thorough pain in the butt when it's 4.125" wide and you don't have an OA rig and a big table to lay it out on! It's doable, but a ton of aggravation.I'd first draw out the scroll you want to form. You can use the Fibonnaci sequence to get a nautilus curl going, but that might not be the perfect look for the stock you're trying to form to it. A good starting place, though, and the golden ratio has been used for hundreds of generations.
Reply:I used a technique similar to what you are suggesting to make the piece below. I cut part way through the channel then bent using my 20 ton press. Doing it by hand was a no go. My piece of channel was not galvanized so I did not worry about the hazards. In your instance, the example was cut completely apart then each piece was welded together While this sound like more work, it is actually the easier and correct method. Trust me on this. It will be very hard to cut part way through then try to get all the bends correct. Very hard. If you are dead set on using your galvanized beam, this also would then make the complete cut and weld method more appropriate. You can cut the beam with your portaband or a cut off wheel. Then take the sections outside away from everything. Put the sections in a bucket with a lid. Pour some muriatic acid in the bucket and close the lid. Wait 20 minutes then remove. If the galvanized is not off, scrub a bit with a wire brush and soak again. Wear face and eye protection the whole time. Once the pieces are clean, dunk in a baking soda and water bath followed up by a fresh water bath. Getting an I beam that is not galvanized will save you a few hours of work. Maybe use this one for a future project.Layout your design on the floor or table using the golden ratio as Vaughn and Opus mentioned before. Tack weld both sides of the flange so it does not warp and curl more than you want. If you start at the small pieces and weld one or two at at time, you can then use a grinder to smooth the welds so they are not seen.
Last edited by psacustomcreations; 05-27-2020 at 06:45 AM.Millermatic 252 MIGMiller Dynasty 200DX TIGMiller Spectrum 625 PlasmaAltas 12x36 Metal LatheBridgeport Milling Machinewww.psacustomcreations.com
Reply:To add to my post above, if you are going to use the galvanized beam, leave it in one piece first. Take 10 minutes and run a grinder all over it a few times. If you can remove 40% or more of the galvanization in 10-15 minutes, you will save hours of soak time. That also saves time for the muriatic gases to get where you don't want them and rust everything in sight.Millermatic 252 MIGMiller Dynasty 200DX TIGMiller Spectrum 625 PlasmaAltas 12x36 Metal LatheBridgeport Milling Machinewww.psacustomcreations.com
Reply:I also looks as if the beam only comprises a small portion of sections like 5 chunks? Then it spreads wider. Seems mathematical?
Reply:
Originally Posted by Louie1961
Not a question you asked but a long time ago I learned the mathematical formula that describes the curve of the nautilus. I don't remember it off the top of my head, but you can probably google it. It should be easy to find and will help you lay out your cuts more precisely.
Reply:Wow, profuse thanks to everyone (sans one) for taking the time to detail many great observations and advice. I want to address each in a separate reply so if a conversation breaks out, I can keep it straight lol. Again, thank you all.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Welder Dave
It looks like the one you're trying to copy each individual section is welded. Would be good to have a table to lay it out on.
Reply:
Originally Posted by tapwelder
I also looks as if the beam only comprises a small portion of sections like 5 chunks? Then it spreads wider. Seems mathematical?As stated there is no bending done there. And the sculpture is more complex than a so glad beamI would cut. Form a template(s) and weld. Where a respirator and use a fan outside you should be fine.You did state a "version of"... So carry onGood luck
Reply:
Originally Posted by Shootr
The two links Dave posted are what I've been researching. In my opinion, the nautilus shape falls in between the two - looser than the Archimedes example, but tighter than the Fibonacci equation. The "golden spiral" link had another link that explains phyllotaxis (wow am I getting schooled!!!) which is closest to what I am trying to achieve.
Reply:If I'm allowed to stay on this forum, you'll soon see I have no shortage of weird off the wall ideas...
So what if I cut into the bottom flange a little, making a score line if you will. Then put a piece of stout angle iron under the beam at the bend point, and use something like this to wail into the saw cut to try and spread it.
Possible need to scab on a wider wedge that would be the full width of the beam? Or get really fancy and upgrade to a hydraulic/manual log splitter and modify it to work!
Reply:I would not expect difficulty bending is your reduced the flange to a bout 1/8 inch. The wedge would work. Got heat? Then you.could just cut away the web.The difference between .2 and .125 is substantial when bending manually.
Reply:I think it could be bent. If you draw out a pattern on cardboard & bend one segment at a time matched to your template, then tack a brace across the open end to hold it in place, then cut & bend the next segment, & so on. I would try to start with the tightest bends 1st - more leverage for those tougher bends. A come a long would be my tool for force & I would start with a riser in the middle to hold the cable at enough angle to get leverage to get it started (think truss with cable as rafters). Once you get the curl started there should be enough leverage to make the rest of the bends.
Reply:That's slick for sure. I'm gonna have to check my I-beam stock for length and thickness. Saw cutting would definitely be cleaner then cutting and welding. Depending on beam size and your cutting tools I would saw cut. As a reminder, you can cut straight from top flange, through web AND into the inside of bottom flange. That inside saw kerf will make forming the bend easier. A stout welding table would help and a come a long. A car or truck rim may work for a jig to bend around. Lots of options. I'm looking forward to seeing it IF you try it. Good luck. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:
Originally Posted by tapwelder
I would not expect difficulty bending is your reduced the flange to a bout 1/8 inch. The wedge would work. Got heat? Then you.could just cut away the web.The difference between .2 and .125 is substantial when bending manually.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Shootr
Would any of you have advice on what tooth count and blade speed I should try with the portaband saw?
Reply:Shootr'non sequiturs' have consequences . . .
Originally Posted by Shootr
Reply:test postIs there any make or model of a portaband that will cut down 6 inches? I like the log splitter idea to bend it but will it be able to get all the way around once it gets past 180 degrees? It also looks like in the picture that there's a backer that goes all the way around the spiral. I would assume that's what the dots are in the center of the beam segments?
Reply:
Originally Posted by ferrret3238
Is there any make or model of a portaband that will cut down 6 inches? I like the log splitter idea to bend it but will it be able to get all the way around once it gets past 180 degrees? It also looks like in the picture that there's a backer that goes all the way around the spiral. I would assume that's what the dots are in the center of the beam segments?
Reply:
Originally Posted by Shootr
Not that I know of. Mine goes down to a bit over 5", so I'll have a lot of manual sawing to get the last 1/4" or so.Once I know if it will bend as I hope (or can deal with), the plan is as follows:*Strip all the zinc*Make all the cuts*Start with the narrow slices and bend to shape. I think doing the bends in that sequence, I'll avoid getting jammed into an inaccessible curve. I'm hoping to start stripping the coating off tonight so I can do a test cut and bend to see what I get.
Reply:
Originally Posted by tapwelder
Research F-bar. Blacksmiths use them. i have several different sizes. You can make a large on for your specific.purpose. I have a 3.foot long set made from 1.25" pipe I use for twisting. A long handle will give you a bunch of leverage.Why strip all zinc? Looks? If health related wear proper ppe .throw clothes away if really concerned?
Reply:I was having a bad day and needed to take a break, so I geared up to do a quick cut and bend test on the beam - the curiosity of what I'm in for me was killing as well.I wore a mask and had pretty much everything on me covered when I used a flapper disc to clean off the zinc where I'd be working. Next I hand held the portaband and made the first cut at the 1" mark and went down as far as I could go. As I had only marked the top, the cut was slightly crooked - in the future I'll have both sides marked all the way down the web. I used the 18 tooth blade already on it at 350FPM with cutting oil, but it wanted to grab and catch. A little squirrely but manageable.
That's as far as the saw could take me, so I tried a cutoff wheel in the dremel, and it worked to cut the rest of the web surprisingly well. I did not make the score line on the bottom flange at this time - I wanted to see how it bent without it.
Using an 8" prybar I was able to easily spread the cut apart, but the uncut flange wasn't bending - the web seemed to be.I then took a pipe wrench and clamped onto the uncut flange as close to the web as I could and gave it a few shots - wasn't really bending as I wanted. As another test, I took the portaband and scored the outside flat of the bottom flange just a touch, less than 1/8". That seemed to be the ticket, this time with the pipe wrench I was getting the flange to bend.
Realizing I wouldn't be able to use a wrench like this on the rest of the bends, I started trying to figure out what tool could grab the flange on the side and with enough leverage let me bend each cut as I progressed through the length of the beam.And along comes TapWelder to save the day with the F-Bar tip. Even though I can't find a picture of one - I'm pretty sure what it is, and will be able to make one easily for my project.
This weekend I'll do test #2:Saw cut with a new, courser tooth bladeMark the cut line all the way down on both sidesPut the beam on the ground and off the jack stands to cut (oops)Use the dremel to cut a score line on the inside flat of the flangeMake an appropriately sized f-bar tool or two to bend withBend the beam and see how it comes out.This is going to be a long process but when I work slow and don't push myself too hard - I think I'm on track for a fairly successful effort.
Reply:But if someone has a pic or two of an F-Bar, I'd be greatly appreciative if you posted it!
EDIT:"Bending Fork" - I knew if I could find the right keyword I'd get it lol...
Last edited by Shootr; 05-28-2020 at 07:25 PM.
Reply:I would jam in a wedge when making the cut. Better yet make up several as a lot of the bending can be done with wedges.
Reply:Today's test went much better - kind of...Started by trying to make a couple of bending bars out of 1/8" scrap angle iron and 1/2" steel rod. Thought I was welding effectively but my first try I could snap the end rod off of each one:
Turned the wire feed speed down, cleaned up the area, and the second try stuck much better:
Next I wanted to see if I would be able to use the home made chop saw frame - it works great, but I have to stop and start to move the beam around to clear various parts of the saw frame. But it got down pretty far and mostly straight. Using a wedge once the flange was cut through did help, thanks again for the valuable tip - 18 tooth blade with lots of cuts on it already glided thru like butter.
To finish the cut, I first tried a cut off wheel in the angle grinder - it worked OK but again I have to really pay attention to keep it straight when cutting down for the bend score line. I did use the dremel to get into the web/flange joint to cut it down as best I could. I still didn't cut quite deep enough, but it did bend as I wanted.
The bender bars are strong enough that they started to bend up the corners of the flange while the cut and flange didn't budge.The last things I need to fine tune is how to finish the cut and a way to more easily keep the beam plumb and square as I reposition it several times throughout the cut. I'm going to buy some metal blades for the jigsaw and the sawzall - between the two I'm hoping they will allow me to finish the cut without using cut off wheels.
Reply:You need to practice your welding some, maybe a lot, more and I think you would save yourself a lot of hassle and frustration by building it the same way the original was, in individual pieces. If you had a steel table you could draw the layout and line all your pieces up. Flanges would all be straight and not distorted from trying to bend them. The edges would be flat and line up on both sides. I think your making the project a lot more complicated than it needs to be.
Reply:No ifs, ands, or buts - I need a lot of practice. I also need a real welder vs my HF flux core unit, a dedicated welding table, bigger bandsaw, and a shop to put it all in.These projects are my practice - I learn a lot doing them and if I happen to end up with something I like, it's a bonus. Welding without warping is another challenge for me. At my skill level, pretty sure cutting and bending may give a better result than trying 40 symmetrical welds.
Reply:Cutting individual pieces would be a lot easier to follow a pattern. You could lay it out on the floor if need be. Lots of fabrications have been laid out on the shop floor.
Reply:Drill holes for round stock and weld on backside too. It will take more abuse. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:Wear eye and face protection if you use a jig saw or recip. Both violently throw large hot particles with force. Cover hands and arm may be desired, depending on your rhythm and how much you like dancing.Good luck with your project. I look forward to the final results.
Reply:
Made all the cuts today. Used the bandsaw and got all but one pretty straight - darn saw started to walk and I wasn't watching close enough.Finished the cuts with a 24tpi sawzall blade. This also worked pretty good - I tried to really slow down and pay attention. A lot of chattering and vibration towards the end from the beam flexibility.
It's pretty bendy as is, so forming it to shape isn't going to be a problem. Now I'm kind of wondering if it will be "springy" when finished. Done for today, I want to be fresh and rested when I start the final step.
Reply:What portaband to you have ? The later Milwaukees have a guide with opening for blade. Older saws had a single foot. The wider guide does a nicer jobSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:
Originally Posted by BD1
What portaband to you have ? The later Milwaukees have a guide with opening for blade. Older saws had a single foot. The wider guide does a nicer jobSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:Time to try the bending...Seems to be a pretty fine line to not cutting enough and cutting too much. Mostly didn't cut enough initially so I had the sawzall at the ready and fine tuned each cut. I used a prybar to initially open up each cut, then the bender bars to get to the desired angle. The bender bars didn't work too well - they put the leverage in the wrong place.I took a piece of angle iron and notched the corner - it worked the best once the cut was opened up far enough.
Lessons learned at this juncture include: bending the big angles without heat probably not the best idea - I needed 45 degrees for the first bend, but by 35 degrees the flange kind of looked like it wanted to crack. I cracked the web on the second piece while trying to bend - it'll need to be cut off, the flange bent to the correct angle, and the web welded back on.As I keep saying - all these bumps in the road are teaching me practical lessons, or at least where my ability limits are currently
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Reply:Don't pick on yourself, it's a long learning curve. I always forget that I started this stuff as compulsory after hours maintenance work for the family construction company... at 12-13 years of age.
Reply:It is getting there.As you are finding out, scoring the flange is pretty much going to be required. As BD1 mentioned, your bending bars or "F" with the round bar will work better if you drill a hole through the angle, pass the rods through, then weld the other side. You may need the rods to be longer and larger as you proceed so the angle clears the outside of the beam.Millermatic 252 MIGMiller Dynasty 200DX TIGMiller Spectrum 625 PlasmaAltas 12x36 Metal LatheBridgeport Milling Machinewww.psacustomcreations.com
Reply:It is coming along. The bending bars have limits when the radius gets tight. If you have tubing that will fit over the pins it may allow you to get tighter bends and allow you do put leverage where you want. As they are the bars will be more useful as you move outward. As mentioned I have several.I agree, it is teaching valuable lessons. When I bend smooth/continuous... I feel it in my hands, rather than see it. Yet you are dealing with an discrete part and you will probably need to see the bend on that tight are.
Reply:
Originally Posted by psacustomcreations
It is getting there.As you are finding out, scoring the flange is pretty much going to be required. As BD1 mentioned, your bending bars or "F" with the round bar will work better if you drill a hole through the angle, pass the rods through, then weld the other side. You may need the rods to be longer and larger as you proceed so the angle clears the outside of the beam.
Reply:
Originally Posted by tapwelder
It is coming along. The bending bars have limits when the radius gets tight. If you have tubing that will fit over the pins it may allow you to get tighter bends and allow you do put leverage where you want. As they are the bars will be more useful as you move outward. As mentioned I have several.I agree, it is teaching valuable lessons. When I bend smooth/continuous... I feel it in my hands, rather than see it. Yet you are dealing with an discrete part and you will probably need to see the bend on that tight are.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Shootr
I think as I get to the wider pieces, I have a feeling (ok, hope) that it will get a little easier.Is angle iron a good material to make F bars out of? Next time around, what thickness do you think - and what bar diameter? Drilling holes to pass the bar through should be easy enough. Or is there another design more rookie-builder-friendly?
Reply:HF Porta-band and a large Snap-On toolbox... What's going on there?
Reply:
Originally Posted by Welder Dave
HF Porta-band and a large Snap-On toolbox... What's going on there? |
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发表于 2021-9-1 23:17:56