Miller 211 wiring clarification

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A bit confused over wiring for the 220 volt plug in . The Miller site suggests using a 30 amp breaker , the plug itself has 20 Amp printed on it. Input Power shows as 120 V: 24.3 A, single-phase, 50/60 Hz240 V: 16.6 A, single-phase, 50/60 HzSo wouldn't it make sense to run 12-3 wire with 20amp breaker on a dedicated line or am I reading it wrong?  Please clarrify so I can either take back and exchange the 12-3 and 20 amp breaker I bought for 10-3 and 30 amp breaker.I was also curious, is there any difference at all between the older 211's and the new 211 I just bought as per wiring requirements?Thanks

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Last edited by disisme; 10-31-2019 at 06:13 PM.
Reply:Pretty universal, welders use 230 volts & equipment ground. Two insulated conductors + bare earth ground. To be correct the white conductor needs to be re identified as red.12/2WG, or if I were doing it 10/2 wgAn optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Willie B

Pretty universal, welders use 230 volts & equipment ground. Two insulated conductors + bare earth ground. To be correct the white conductor needs to be re identified as red.12/2WG, or if I were doing it 10/2 wg
Reply:30amp Breaker and 10/2 is an ideal fit for the MM2116-50r in the wall.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:

Originally Posted by Broccoli1

30amp Breaker and 10/2 is an ideal fit for the MM2116-50r in the wall.
Reply:The manuals are for those familiar with code and NEMA.  This machine can be used on circuits to 50A provided the wire is 12 or better.  It can use 14 wire,,,, if a 30 breaker is used.  the 12 wire and a 30 breaker is good. Better wire doesn't hurt anything but,, the old 211 drew more than the new ones. It drew about 25A and also allowed 14.   I used to use 1o for them, recently did one with MC 12 for someone for one. Used a 30 as he doesn't intend to use larger machines. The benefit of 10 is the breaker could be changed to 50.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Broccoli has it right, 10-2 with 30A breaker works and meets code. No point upping the breaker amps without going up in wire gauge. IIRC 12g/20A; 10g/30A; 8g/50A but do your own research.
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Originally Posted by Johnmm

Broccoli has it right, 10-2 with 30A breaker works and meets code. No point upping the breaker amps without going up in wire gauge. IIRC 12g/20A; 10g/30A; 8g/50A but do your own research.
Reply:I would not running anything less than 10 gauge. Actually 8 would be my choice in case you decide on a larger machine or a plasma in the future.
Reply:No it doesnt.  The machine te rates it and no one thinks a 211 is ideal on 14 but when you step up one size and concern goes away especially with the new inverters. 17A load on a 12 and at limited duty cycle.   This is a LONG established practice and chart, they didn't come up with it yesterday, we'll before the Internet. 225 buzzers are a good example, a 10 is a size bigger than the cord. It needs to be a size bigger for extension cord or cable, the mi imams are single circuit in pipe.    The machine can run on 220,, we have 240 or better. The voltage drop  with the minimum 12 is 10 or 12 wide open, a bit of a factor and more if it was ran a lot but when the wire is 10 only 3 or 4 and moving to 8 about 2 or 3.  Doesn't matter, operator can't tell.   There seems to be almost panic here about a bit of voltage drop , a pound or 2 loss, stuff an operator can't tell, the fear of loss almost compulsive. The Internet seems to compound it..   I never seen this a real problem. Never,, not a little or a lot. My neighbor, a master of masters, holds every paper,  wire a whole casino, could have any wire they make for free. Still has a 10 cable he put in for a welder 35 years ago.  Another has 12 in pipe and 25 ft of 12 cord for his, didn't know anything about welding when he put it in but read the instruction.  At the rate they use them not a problem.   When I look a master plummy bud,, has same 1/2 air line he plumbed 40 years ago, never heard him ever worry about a pound drop.   When I started this in my teens worried about shat like that,, cost me some grief and parked a lot of wire and pipe that never got utilized, worked hard to put inch in when 1/2 would have been well adequate.  Be different if it caused a problem or didn't work.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:We get people coming on forums wondering if they need 10 on their long,, 25 ft circuits cause they "researched" every chart they could find. Read the numbers on a circuit saw and went in to a panic and we have done away with a lot of general understanding,  some realization that if the rest of the world runs fine from a 12 that maybe it's fine for them too.  If it lists 14 does it really need 6 or 8?  As for future proof,, the same model welder went from 25A to 17.  Toilets went from 5 gpm to 1, could now put 4 on the same 1/2 line been in use for decades.   Know a couple ran welding shops for 40 years on 100A service.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Wire size is determines breaker. I suggested running 8 which allows him a 50 amp breaker if he gets a larger machine. Why spend money twice. It doesn't cost that much. IF he was running a hundred feet $$$$ may come into play. It doesn't hurt running large wire as long as breaker is sized accordingly.
Reply:The inverters I use are automatically able to adapt to whatever voltage they are fed. Transformers are a different story. If you unwind the winding in a welder and connect power, current is exponentially higher, while magnetic strength is small. Wound, a transformer has a strong magnetic field. It restrict current flow, called magnetic impedence, or magnetic choke. One expert estimates the increase in current at 30% for a ten volt loss in voltage. Meanwhile, lower input voltage means less magnetic field inducing power to the secondary winding for the welding rod. To get equivalent output, you must turn up the amperage. Most single phase transformer welders are rated for 230 volts. They are commonly hundreds of feet from the utility transformer. If you start with 240, you can lose 10 volts and be within design voltage. It is widely assumed within 10% of design voltage is functional. Voltage a bit above design is helpful, below design voltage reduces your duty cycle. Most of us want peak performance. Bumping wire size a bit doesn't cost a lot, and leaves you prepared for the next welder should you upgrade.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:He can put a bigger welder on a 10,, even a 12 in some cases. And as for voltage drop, linear, a machine allows 75 ft, at 25 not so much an issue. At a size bigger and half the allowable distance it's enough overy ill that all this is moot.   Only reason I mention this is that some of it should be based on math and code rather than fear of loss.   It's ok to upside some wire, doesn't hurt but doesn't help either. It's why the poco hooks a lot of number 2 wire to 200A service, they know the actual demand.  One of the benefits to buying a new machine that pulls 17  is,,,,,, is,,, so it doesn't need a huge wire. It's a feature they paid for.  I will buy a machine needs a 12 so I can put in a 6, not a lot of logic in that.Last edited by Sberry; 11-01-2019 at 09:01 AM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:

Originally Posted by BD1

Wire size is determines breaker. I suggested running 8 which allows him a 50 amp breaker if he gets a larger machine. Why spend money twice. It doesn't cost that much. IF he was running a hundred feet $$$$ may come into play. It doesn't hurt running large wire as long as breaker is sized accordingly.
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Originally Posted by danielplace

A code compliant 50 amp feed normally requires a #6 copper. Only the 60 degree table is applicable for that calculation. Some derations will allow use of the 90 degree table to start with and de-rate from those higher ratings. This being a dedicated welding outlet you can often over protect the circuit based on the duty cycle of the machine so #8's on a 50 may be ok still but not worth trying to install minimum if you just install #6's just as easily.   It could work just fine with #12 to 750mcm but with the 50 amp 6-50R being used for a plug if it is a new installation probably smarter to just run the #6's and feed it with a 50 amp breaker or if running that little machine I would install a 30 amp on it for now just to give it some level of protection. I would say a 20 amp or 25 amp breaker but often the lugs on those small breakers won't accept a #6 wire. Even check the 30 to be sure your brand has lugs suitable for the #6's.
Reply:Man lots of information and I sure do appreciate it. First off very good point about future upgrades, but no I will never be getting a bigger welder or adding a plasma cutter, I'm just a simple hobbiest. My son popped in last night with the grandson, he is an HVAC guy, I happened to mention I need a bigger breaker than the 20 I had bought and first thing he asked me was how big was the breaker that the subpanel in the shop was running off. It had been a while so I took a look, its a 200 Amp service with a 100 Amp service in the shop using a 60Amp breaker in the 200 Amp panel. I know I will be doing some research on this but would like to ask, is this an ok setup ? In the shop right now ,n in the 100 Amp panel I have a 220volt compressor running on a 20 Amp breaker and a few other 15 amp breakers for lites and plugs.  I'll include photos if it helps.

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Reply:Might not work in your shop but I put my receptical right next to my panel, so maybe 2’ of 10g thhn, then 50’ 8g SOOW extension cord to my 211 cart. Works great. 30a breaker has never tripped.
Reply:Well Johnmm looks like I’m moving forward with the 10guage wire and 30 amp breaker. Question is , it’s 30 feet to back of shop , (separate section ) , I want a recepticle back there as well as one 10 feet from breaker , do I go from panel to first recepticle then off the first recepticle to the other  recepticle Or do I go from panel to a junction box and run the two receptacles out of the junction box or does it matter other than trying to manipulate 10 gauge wire inside the first receptacle box?Thanks
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Originally Posted by BD1

8 gauge THHN and THWN are rated for 50 ampshttps://www.cityelectricsupply.com/d...ty%20Chart.pdfSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:When I did my wiring, the county inspector said # 8 THW is fine for 50 amp breaker .That was good enough for me.Last edited by BD1; 11-01-2019 at 06:05 PM.
Reply:

Originally Posted by BD1

When I did my wiring, the county inspector said # 8 THW is fine for 50 amp breaker .That was good enough for me.
Reply:

Originally Posted by disisme

Well Johnmm looks like I’m moving forward with the 10guage wire and 30 amp breaker. Question is , it’s 30 feet to back of shop , (separate section ) , I want a recepticle back there as well as one 10 feet from breaker , do I go from panel to first recepticle then off the first recepticle to the other  recepticle Or do I go from panel to a junction box and run the two receptacles out of the junction box or does it matter other than trying to manipulate 10 gauge wire inside the first receptacle box?Thanks
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Originally Posted by Johnmm

Honestly I don’t know the code on that or how much that concerns you. I don’t see why you can’t run from outlet to another like the 120 outlets on your other breakers, I did that in my garage (not shop) to put a welder outlet on my well pump circuit for occasions when I need the welder up there. Same deal, 10g thhn or better on a 30a breaker, and my 8g extension cord from there, I only run the 211 on 240V, personal preference. I am not a licensed electrician or EE, keep that in mind
Reply:It doesn't hurt to up the wire a size but we shouldn't leave the idea that it has to be raised 4 sizes of that there is a real benifit. The adapter allows these to be ran on 50,  the breaker doesn't provide any protection to the machine.  The reason for a 30 is whenthe minimum of 14 wire is used, the cord is 14,after the adapter. 30 is the limit for short circuit for 14, once it's 12 it's allowed on 50.www.urkafarms.comDo you have empty breaker spaces for additional outlets at main panel ?? Maybe consider running the larger wire and add subpanel. Then add outlet box off sub panel for welder and run whatever you want from sub panel for outlets. You only want to do this once. You may consider installing double outlets .Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:

Originally Posted by BD1

Do you have empty breaker spaces for additional outlets at main panel ?? Maybe consider running the larger wire and add subpanel. Then add outlet box off sub panel for welder and run whatever you want from sub panel for outlets. You only want to do this once. You may consider installing double outlets .Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:

Originally Posted by disisme

Sorry BD1 I’m a bit confused on what you’re suggesting. I have the 200 amp main panel in house and a 100 amp sub panel in the shop is running off the 60 breaker from main panel in house.
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Originally Posted by BD1

Sorry, I saw the photos of the main panel and didn't see open breakers . I  missed the sub panel in shop. I do have a excuse, it's the meds. I had full knee replacement  3 weeks ago. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:

Originally Posted by disisme

Haha sounds like a seniors moment, I get em all the time.
Reply:

Originally Posted by disisme

I just found it a bear to get tucked into the receptacle box, I got it all wrapped up junction box helped but again a bear to twist 3 10 gauge wire ends together to pit marretts on, but I think easier than the small box.
Reply:So what if a guy has to do something again?  There is a lot of fear about this too, so,, you got to add another wire or circuit or do it twice to fix it or get it right.  Can future proof, all assumption and spectlation, may never happen no matter how much you toss at it. Stuff changes, never even occurred we would have wireless or Internet when I start.  Design changes, equipment improves or becomes obsolete.   Do some general right, make it easy to modify, face some of it if it ever comes.   We are not talking to a career welder here but a hobby guy buys a 211, wire to make it work.Last edited by Sberry; 11-02-2019 at 11:42 AM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Thanks for the help guys, Sberry very good point.
Reply:

Originally Posted by BD1

8 gauge THHN and THWN are rated for 50 ampshttps://www.cityelectricsupply.com/d...ty%20Chart.pdfSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:

Originally Posted by danielplace

You can't use the THHN table. Only the 60° because once you terminate it the lugs aren't rated 90° so it de-rates everything. That was the topic of my post actually. The 90° chart is only usable when taking other derations you can start from the 90° charts numbers the de-rate.
Reply:

Originally Posted by BD1

When I did my wiring, the county inspector said # 8 THW is fine for 50 amp breaker .That was good enough for me.
Reply:

Originally Posted by danielplace

We used to wire 50 amp ranges with #8 for years and one day all that changed and they came up with the terminations needing 90° also and overnight #6 was the new requirement.It was in South Florida so they tend to be more strict about making change when someone comes up with a fresh idea about something new to start enforcing. On a welder with a duty cycle #8 is plenty good. If the system was subjected to some continuous actual 50 amp load then #6 may be better choice.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Sberry

The manuals are for those familiar with code and NEMA.  This machine can be used on circuits to 50A provided the wire is 12 or better.  It can use 14 wire,,,, if a 30 breaker is used.  the 12 wire and a 30 breaker is good. Better wire doesn't hurt anything but,, the old 211 drew more than the new ones. It drew about 25A and also allowed 14.   I used to use 1o for them, recently did one with MC 12 for someone for one. Used a 30 as he doesn't intend to use larger machines. The benefit of 10 is the breaker could be changed to 50.
Reply:

Originally Posted by GiantTechGuy

No you can not use a 50 amp breaker on 10 ga wire.The breaker is to protect the circuit conductors not the machine.
Reply:

Originally Posted by GiantTechGuy

No you can not use a 50 amp breaker on 10 ga wire.The breaker is to protect the circuit conductors not the machine.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Willie B

When we size a conductor we consider two factors: Will it get hot? and Will it lose too much voltage. Plenty of people have pointed out that many inverters adapt to any voltage. For them we don't need to get alarmed about voltage if it falls within the range the welder needs. Inverters will use more current if voltage is low. NFPA 70 National Electrical code addresses this in Table 630.11(A).

A cheap welder has a low duty cycle, some are low as 20% (2 minutes out of 10) NEC recognizes this and allows you to factor I1Max current to less for conductor sizing for specific welders. This becomes risky where people have the "If it fits it ships" mentality. A 60 year old buzz box might have a 50 amp I1Max rating, at 20% duty cycle or 22.5 amps. the rules allow #12 conductors when limited to the 75 degree column in Table 310.16. When the magic smoke that enables these old relics to work escapes, Bubba is gonna plug in what he finds on Craigslist. I've plugged 7 different welders into the same outlet. No, I did NOT run #14 wire!
Reply:You would think if it was a problem the mfg s like Lincoln and Miller would pencil it in their book if it caused warranty failures, code would have changed if it caused fires or damaged equipment.  Instead they invent an adapter and reduce the cord to 14. The make it smaller, made it lighter along with less demand on a whole new class of machine,, but maybe all these engineers are stupid and don't know what they are doing when they spec this.? The problem couldn't possibly be rather limited understanding here could it?  No.. not possible.  Couldn't be under what circumstances it's allowed or disallowed?  Would be so much easier to read and understand PART of the code and manual.   This might be part of the reason the manual is writhen the way it is and intended for those understand it, they suggest a qualified electrician,,, the manual does kind of assume the "qualified" understand this.   Here is where it could be improved to some extent,, maybe.  Due to the proliferation of diy install there might be a layman suggestion which meets or exceeds the minimum.  There is probably a reason by minds greater than my own as to why they don't do this.  There must be a reason they didn't keep the 12 cord and come up with an adapter. Seems 5 ft of 12 cord would have been cheaper than that but I think they may have simply moved some of the internal out to the end.  It doesn't need it on 120v which is current limited by the breaker.I am not totally sure why they do bUT it's probably someting that has never even occurred to me.Last edited by Sberry; 11-04-2019 at 08:25 PM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Most engineering is over my head. The skill set of a wireman is different, not to invent the rules but to follow the instructions and install it in a safe manner compliant with the code.  You can exceed it, nothing wrong with it except for economy and it may even work a little better,,,, if it would work a lot better then they would spec a better wire, no skin off their *** but they do it this way for some reason.www.urkafarms.com
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Originally Posted by Sberry

You shouldn't have a 14 wire where it s used for different machines. It is allowed [ hence the stuff written in the manual and the code] for specific machines and,,,, it must be limited to 30A breaker when this is done.  Now,, this is not 14 on a 50 and if Bubba plugs a buzzer that specs a 50 in to it will send the breaker to a trip before it overheats the wire, prolly not make it thru a rod.    I know it's hard to believe but the code gurus have thought this thru, if it was a problem they would have changed it several code cycles ago, been this way for decades.  Just like it's legal to use a 16 cord on a 20A circuit.
Reply:That is being read wrong. It's not allowing the 12 on a 100A breaker. It's limited to 50.  I have it explained to me by the guru but I forget all the details and probably don't understand it well enough to slain it anyway.  I have never found anything I know enough about it to disagree with the code on. I found some stuff at first I thought there was a fault with but upon further investigation I find its my understanding that is the problem, often incomplete. I am not really a natural electrician or mechanic for that matter, only come to it by sheer repetition and questioning specifics.    Lots of code and the calculations are over my head, only know some of this in given area I work with, wiring welding machines and comps and some general circuits.Last edited by Sberry; 11-04-2019 at 09:03 PM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:630 addresses welders. 630.11(A) gives factors for choosing conductors. It allows as low as .45.630.12(A) and (B) limits the 200% overcurrent based on I1Max of the welder to 200% of the conductor rating.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:The instruction manual tends to simplify it. Says min wire size max breaker. It's not complete in the eplanation that once the wire is above the minimum a breaker up to 50 may be used.  50A plug the unit comes with is limited to 50 ocpd.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Right 200% of the conductor rating of the 12 thhn to be 50A. 100% would be 25A, 200 50.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Hi, Thanks for all the great info!  I'm a newbie who just bought a new Millermatic 211.  From reading what you all posted it seems as if a bigger wire won't hurt anything as long as you use a breaker sized to protect the machine that you're going to be using.I plan on running a dedicated 220v circuit for the 211 using 6-3 wire with a 30 amp breaker.  6-3 because I have happen to have a  50' roll of it already.  A 30 Amp breaker because it seems that 's what the 211 needs for protection.Is the wire too big? Should I use a larger breaker?Thank you Gentlemen.
Reply:

Originally Posted by NHWelder

Hi, Thanks for all the great info!  I'm a newbie who just bought a new Millermatic 211.  From reading what you all posted it seems as if a bigger wire won't hurt anything as long as you use a breaker sized to protect the machine that you're going to be using.I plan on running a dedicated 220v circuit for the 211 using 6-3 wire with a 30 amp breaker.  6-3 because I have happen to have a  50' roll of it already.  A 30 Amp breaker because it seems that 's what the 211 needs for protection.Is the wire too big? Should I use a larger breaker?Thank you Gentlemen.