Mixed feelings

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Hey all! It's Candi again. Ok. I've been getting mixed feelings and I'm in need of yet more advice. I've been told do an apprenticeship with the local union. The union in my area will take 5 years to complete. Is being an apprentice with the union a wise choice? I've also been told take a few classes, get certified, then get a job. I need some feedback. They both sound great, but I need some pros and cons to both or something. Anything!
Reply:which trade and what classes are they suggesting you take?
Reply:Originally Posted by candicane83Hey all! It's Candi again. Ok. I've been getting mixed feelings and I'm in need of yet more advice. I've been told do an apprenticeship with the local union. The union in my area will take 5 years to complete. Is being an apprentice with the union a wise choice? I've also been told take a few classes, get certified, then get a job. I need some feedback. They both sound great, but I need some pros and cons to both or something. Anything!
Reply:It's for welding pipe fitters. i'm not sure what classes they suggest i take yet. i'll find that out tomorrow. i'm just not sure if doing the apprenticeship is a wise choice or not.
Reply:Well if you ask me its a wise choice.  They put out some of the best welders out there.   Ive known several women in this craft.   I personally dont think you can go wrong, but you have to do it for the right reasons, and you have to be determined to learn from all experiences good and bad.   Never give up.   Good luckIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:hey redneck, meant to tell you, LOVE THE PHOTO!! I need to put one up..hmmm... either way i can't go wrong. i'm still leaning towards the apprenticeship. yea it may take five years and i have to do a lot of class work as well a 40 hour a week job. hell i've been doing that since i was 15 so i think i can handle the apprenticeship.
Reply:I did a 4 year apprenticeship and took some night classes but by far the the most valuable lessons were given to me by patient and talented people on the job. Yes, there are plenty of cranky old farts, but you will be amazed at the defrosting that occurs if you politely and respectfully ask about the task they are performing. Most are ready and willing to share tricks, suggestions and better, easier ways to get the job done. (Kinda like this forum....)And by the way, nobody expects a first period apprentice to know everything. They just expect you to show up, ON TIME, EVERY DAY, with a willing heart and an open mind.Last edited by bluestreak; 07-09-2006 at 10:25 PM.
Reply:Thanks for the words. I think the apprenticeship is a good idea. it's kind of like that extra push I need to make a commitment and keep me focused.~ CandiObstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.- Henry Ford 1863-1947
Reply:If you do go with the apprenticeship route, make sure to read the fine print on anything you sign.  Understand completely what you are giving up for what they are giving you.  School on your own dime is less a commitment. but it also is entirely yours to do with as you please.  If things change for you, you can adjust...how rigid is the terms of the appreticeship?  I am not trying to discourage you in any way...but, knowledge is power....be knowledgable about what ever you decide to do.  Now go get'um.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:yea, i did think about that as a con to the apprenticeship. i'm not sure yet on the terms. i'll know tomorrow. i know it's 5 years and each year is about 2000 hours of work and 216 hours of class time per year. i'm not sure if that's good or bad ya know.~ CandiObstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.- Henry Ford 1863-1947
Reply:Not trying to discourage you, but have you experienced any of the world of welding? If not, it might be best to see some of what it involves. I'd find 2 or 3 local companies that will let you observe or assist for 3 days at each place. Not necessarily as in getting hired as a helper / weld assistant yet, just get into a couple places to check it out.
Reply:I've observed a few places. and no it's not tv..hahaha.. i get that alot. i was able to tag along and see what it was about and i loved it!! and i know i could do it. so yes i have experienced the world of welding and it's kick ***!!~ CandiObstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.- Henry Ford 1863-1947
Reply:My wife is a union journeyman electrician.  She has inspired several young ladies to seriously consider the union trades because of the work experience, and the equal footing upon graduation.  After that, the poor ones (women and men) are quickly discovered.Yes, it is a very busy 5 years in the electrical union apprenticeship.  Any apprenticeship will take commitment.  I might wager that the electrical union's schools are more heavily math oriented, though, but I can still think of LOTS of math involved with fitting pipe.  Be prepared for lots of homework, AND NO POSSIBILITY OF EXCUSES FOR NOT DOING IT.
Reply:yes the apprenticeship program will take a lot of commitment. i know it will force me to push myself to do better and that's what i need you know. the pro's of the apprenticeship are outweighing the cons it seems.~ CandiObstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.- Henry Ford 1863-1947
Reply:Here's what I can tell you about it.  Depending on the work load in your area, the Joint Apprentice Training Council (jatc) put on a list those who qualify. You will be asked to take a drug test, pass it and pay for it. Also an asset test, which is basically a college entrance test, and you must score a certain number for the math and english portions(this you also pay for). Once these things are completed, you will put your application packet together. This will include your app, resume, school transcripts, your pee test and asset test scores.Some jatc programs take apps twice a year, some once and there are some going to 4 times a year. Once you turn in your packet, you will be contacted for an interview. I this area they only ask 5  questions and its the same every time. After your interview you will receive by mail your number. 1 being first to get hired and so on. Depending on the demand in your area you could be number 5 for a month or 2 years. Certs do help your score so take classes in the mean time. Also, as I said before, these guys are hiring for a pipefitting apprenticeship and they like to take journeyman plumbers. Welding experience helps only if you have certs. The cons to the apprenticeship route are these... It takes awhile to get in sometimes so take classes. (Improve yourself always)Sometimes you are not working a 40 hour week. I know guys working 6 tens and in class on monday, wednesday and all day saturday.When a job slows, you may not be doing what you are trained to do. Another guy I know has been reduced from Journeyman fitter/welder to supply clerk but dogded a layoff. He gets paid the same but he has no weld time and is very bored.If you don't like a particular job, you cannot quit. Union rules.If work slows in your area, you will travel. Your local union has an area in which they are responsible for so they will provide workers for the whole area.The pros...1st class education, many union programs now present you with a bachelors degree because thats exactly what you have earned through your hard work.Good pay and benefits, up to 35 dollars an hour.Good retirement.If I missed any Pros, I'm sure someone on this forum can help me out here.Did I say take classes? Yes take as many as you can. You may be on the list for an apprenticeship for a while. While you wait you may get to know some people who can help you or provide you with more information, and you could decide its not for you. I know this because I decided its not for me. I know plenty of fitters, and like any occupation there are some that like it and some that don't. Others like the job and hate the Bulls..t. You may wind up with an even better opportunity, who knows.Oh and take classes.Bill
Reply:i plan to take classes :-) any knowledge is better than nothing~ CandiObstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.- Henry Ford 1863-1947
Reply:Once you hae your apprenticeship completed and your journeyman's papers they can never take them away from you.  Also if you end up someting like a pipe fitter you don't have to test all the time like welders do.  It gets more difficult to qualify on welding tests as you get older.
Reply:yikes!~ CandiObstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.- Henry Ford 1863-1947
Reply:Candi, I can't comment on Houston, but in San Antonio and when I was in Dallas, there was a ton more open shop work than Union work. Unions don't have a foothold here like they do in other places. I have been open shop all my career. I have been in with the union types, worked with the union companies and have seen the BS up close. I have seen and heard enough to not ever consider the union as a place for me. When I was up north, union corruption and I went toe to toe. They tried to shake me down for a weekly fee for my job, even though I was not union. That didn't go over. All the others paid it...like 20 bucks. I refused and was threatened bodily. That told me quite enough about the type I was dealing with in that situation. We had to constantly prove we had what it takes to keep working, not because we did the apprenticeship and now carried a card. Working hard never ever hurt anyone...but it could have done some I know some good. Just my take on it. If the unions have most of the refinery work, then maybe that would be the way to go. It is sounding like there will be some action on that front there for the forseeable future. Might be worth a look.
Reply:i got all most the same stort as DDA52 dose i will not work for one eather but if it works for you good my dad did for 35years and one of my nephew is a union carpenter and most the time he's out of work and if he get's cought doing side job's he'll be in deep dodoChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:I was told about the 20 bucks thing before. actually i got that from the union website that you still "had" to pay dues if you weren't union. i know there'a a big need for pipe welders here in houston, so it all depends on the need and how you look at things.. thank you for your take. It's all still up in the air. i just don't know which way to go about it~ CandiObstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.- Henry Ford 1863-1947
Reply:yes i heard that too about the union. all these people are trying to do is work and be treated fairly and have a decent way of life. i just hate to hear that people are going through that and can't work because of the union, like the union IS there EVERYTHING. i don't know. it's sad ya know.~ CandiObstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.- Henry Ford 1863-1947
Reply:I got out of the union for many of those reasons (IBEW, though).  I didn't need their crap.  Years later, I married someone in the exact same union.  Seems almost ironic that now I get all of their benefits after telling them off.My wife makes good pay for good work, is well-liked (even though she makes them take down their topless pin-ups (or keep the toolbox lids closed)) and I make a killing doing nothing but side work.  Best of both worlds.  Hey, SOMETHING has to go in my favor, right?One thing we don't like about the union communistic practices, though, is what they charge us for health insurance.  Kids are by far the most expensive when it comes to claims to your health insurance.  You can have as many kids as you want and you pay the exact same premium as those of us who choose not to have kids.  Only single people pay less for their health insurance.
Reply:what does IBEW mean? I've heard good and bad things about the union and their practices. I'd just like to have a decent job with decent pay and decent benefits because i do NEED the medical insurance. I'm not sure why people act the way they do just because someone wants to have a better life and beat the odds..~ CandiObstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.- Henry Ford 1863-1947
Reply:IBEW: International Brotherhood (sic) of Electrical Workers.  International meaning we count Canada.Candi, that 20 buck deal was so he wouldn't run you off the job. Had nothing to do with the job or the unions. He was just shaking down all he could to line his pockets.  The job was an open shop job, too. I believe there were three union companies there and the rest were open shoppies. No one could say anything either since he was the top dog. I said something to his face. Left the job on my own very soon after that. No way was I going to stay there. Someone was going to get hurt...soon. Unfortunately there are bad apples everywhere. Hopefully, you won't have to make as much applesauce as I did.
Reply:woohoo! i learned my first acronym..hahahaha~ CandiObstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.- Henry Ford 1863-1947
Reply:Don, canada is included........ great,  wish you guys would keep the unions to yourself. In all seriousness, It has been my experience that unions take care of themselves first and foremost and will protect their "members" (that is those working in the union) interests if it happens to co-incide with their own interests. I ahve seen more than one company become unionized only to close its door a couple years later to end all the political BS and red tape. I do think unions are important though, as they can lobby the higher political powers to enforce safer work practices, but generally, my opinion is this. Do you personally need the union's protection and handouts? If yes, then go for it, but if you are a strong individual, you'll make it much farther on your own, you'll just have to be willing to wrok harder and want it more.
Reply:good point!~ CandiObstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.- Henry Ford 1863-1947
Reply:Many of the unions were founded way back when to combat unfair working conditions, unsafe practices and the like. There was no OSHA then, nor much labor legislation. For example, when IBEW was founded, there were basically NO safety practise for linemen and electricians. Men were being put to work with little to no training and getting electrocuted left and right, forced to work 16 hour days and longer without overtime, had to travel very long distances to get to work every day at their own time and expense, and the list goes on. During storms, they would often work until they dropped. Same with the teamsters, they were founded because of unsafe practices, companies making drivers run for often 20 hours at a time, haul dangerous overloads, etc. I've worked both union and non-union, both hiring hall and closed shop. At present, I'm IBEW, working for a power utility, and I could not imagine what my job would be like without the (a) union. I made more money non-union, but I sure have much better benefits with them.
Reply:you made more money non union? i thought being in the union meant you earned more...~ CandiObstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.- Henry Ford 1863-1947
Reply:Originally Posted by candicane83you made more money non union? i thought being in the union meant you earned more...
Reply:I did a lot of prevailing wage jobs before I struck out on my own this last time. Three or four jobs didn't pay me any more than I already made....and most of the others were less than a buck more. Never seemed worth it in the long run. I stay away from them now that I have to do the paperwork.
Reply:ooooh.. well that's interesting to know.. i know unions can be big fat bullies sometimes. they take care of themselves first and foremost and then take "care" of the members. that i have seen.~ CandiObstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.- Henry Ford 1863-1947
Reply:It mostly depends on the individual union. The International right down to your Local's Business Agent and Business Manager, even the Shop Steward on the job you're on. In general, the pros are: Excellent training, good pay, good benefits. The cons(in my opinion): They choose your jobs. You go where they tell you(in the case of the contractor game), or you don't work. You also don't choose your employer, they do, although whatever employer that is has to abide by the union contract. I'm not sure how it is in Texas, but up here if you do the power plant outages you may work for quite a few different companies each year which can be a pain on taxes. One of my big issues with at least the couple unions I've dealt with(Insulators and Abatement Workers), is that someone with zero experience makes exactly the same money as someone that's been doing the work for 30 years. I don't know if the Pipefitters operate that way though. You don't get raises based on performance, you only get raises when the contract comes up. Even then, some unions will still cut deals with employers if work is slow. If you have a problem with your boss(employer), you are not allowed to deal with it yourself, you have to take it to your Steward, who may or may not do anything about it. They may have a "noncompete clause", meaning if they have no work and you're sitting home for 6 months, you cannot get a non-union welding job. Again, these come down to how good your BA and Steward are.
Reply:true.~ CandiObstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.- Henry Ford 1863-1947
Reply:I've worked in both union & non-union environments. Out of welding school in 1982, my first job was as a welder-fitter - through the United Steelworkers - for which I was paid $14.76/hr. + shift differential of $0.50/hour.24 years later, in the same city(Vancouver, Canada), I earn $30-32/hr., depending on the shift, while non-union companies are offering $14-20/hour.In the same period, average house prices have gone from $70,000 to over 1/2million, in the same city.In most situations, an apprentice with a union company "banks" their hours and, aside from having fairly steady employment during the period of their apprenticeship - at the apprentice rate - takes a huge jump up the senority list once the apprenticeship is complete. Sure, the union environment is not a perfect one, however, the financial compensation, safety considerations & job security, ON AVERAGE, are better than the non-union alternative.Example: I worked a fuel tanker repair last October, at the Grand Bahamas Shipyard. Aside from locally employed/contracted foreign workers, there was my crew from Canada(MarineWorkers, local1) and a crew from Houston, Texas(non-union). The Houston crew was getting US$12/hr. + hotel/travel expenses & we were getting C$26.52/hr + 12% dirty work pay + travel pay & hotel/travel expenses. Working a 12 hour shift, we received double-time for 4 hours each shift, while the Houston workers were $12/hr for 12hrs.On my 2nd shift, I found myself working with one of the Houston crew in an almost "dead air" situation, due to a lack of correct testing by the shipyard. We were hauled out of the tank, the Houston welder unconscious, me seeing pink elephants. On the following day, both crews refused to work until adequate ventilation was installed. The Houston team was fired on the spot, but we Canucks received the ventilation & other safety equipment(respirators, ear plugs) which had not previously been supplied. In the end, I cleared C$3,466 for the 8-day trip(6 working shifts of 12hrs. + travel pay, etc.). In a nutshell, these discrepancies are why I prefer union work.