ARC for Autobody?!

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Hey All,This is my first posting, and am very new to welding. I decided to start with ARC since I could probably learn the most about the craft that way. I recently acquired an old Lincoln welder, and have ordered a low-end 110 powered for around the house. I am restoring an '85 F150 and need to do some body work using panels from JC Whit. I had been riveting them and using Superbody to fill them, which has worked out fine. I'd like to weld the last few and am wondering what rods I should use. I have some 6010 on hand. Should I use these or are there better ones? I know ARC is not the easiest route for this job but is it a bad way to go?Thanks, I can't tell you how much I enjoy learning about all this via the forums.Chris
Reply:An E6013 would suit you better, E6010 is a "hot" rod (deep penetration) and as you are new, you'll probably find it burning through. You hadn't mentioned if your machine is DC, AC/DC or just AC, so run the '13's DCEN (stinger negative) or if you are limited to AC only, it will work but you'll find slightly more penetration. Practice on some scrap of the same thickness, till you get the quality you seek, no sense wrecking new metal.
Reply:I think it's a bad idea personally.  Learning to weld with a Stick machine is one thing, forcing yourself to do the almost impossible is another.MIG, TIG, and Stick are all arc welding processes, and there are others as well.There are also some guys who do this for a living that say that flux-bearing processes are themselves a bad idea for quality finishes like autobody, so that would even include flux-cored wire in a wirefeeder.Part of learning how to weld is to use the best process for the job.  I highly recommend something like a Hobart Handler 140 with a C-25 shielding gas, .023" solid wire, or even the ESAB EasyGrind wire, which is designed specifically for easy grinding of autobody panels.
Reply:There are also some guys who do this for a living that say that flux-bearing processes are themselves a bad idea for quality finishes like autobody, so that would even include flux-cored wire in a wirefeeder.
Reply:I believe it has something to do with the acids and residues left over in the fluxes which are difficult to completely remove, and can affect the quality of the paint job.  I would assume Bondo is DESIGNED for automotive finishes, yes?  Whatever, it's just information; I'm sure I completely deserved the rolling eyes....
Reply:Can you do sheet metal work with stick (SMAW)?  Maybe yes, but you will typically need a LOT of practice and skill to do so.  SMAW would be better suited to work on the frame and brackets of a vehicle and not the sheet metal.MIG (GMAW) and TIG (GTAW) are much better suited to welding sheet metal parts.  Flux-core wire welding -can- weld thick sheet metal (maybe down to 18-20 ga), but typically can't go down in sheet thickness as low as 0.023/0.025 MIG wire can, even in the same machine (typically down to 24-22 ga).IMHO, the proper welding tool for sheet metal would be either MIG (GMAW) or TIG (GTAW).  Fluxcore wire (FCAW) isn't really the right tool/process for automotive sheet metal welding, and neither is stick welding (SMAW).  TIG can be precise, but is a slower welding process than most other welding processes.  Sometimes the speed of doing the job is not a major concern, and precision, control, and cleanliness may lean the process selection to TIG.And that $40 spool of 10-12 pounds of MIG wire will do a LOT of sheet metal welds.  You'll also need shielding gas, and a MIG welder, and a welding helmet, and welding gloves, and clamps, and cutting tool(s), and grinder(s), and wire brushes/wheels, and flap disks/wheels, etc, etc, etc.Proper tools for the job and all that ...
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702(a)There are also some guys who do this for a living that say that flux-bearing processes are themselves a bad idea for quality finishes like autobody, so that would even include flux-cored wire in a wirefeeder.(b)I believe it has something to do with the acids and residues left over in the fluxes which are difficult to completely remove, and can affect the quality of the paint job. I would assume Bondo is DESIGNED for automotive finishes, yes?
Reply:Flux core has contaminants that will affect the synthetic filler, primers and topcoats in the future. Unless removed extensively (meaning deep), you will have finishes that lift or bubble in the future. Ask any professional bodyman that actually has real welding experience.When I chopped the top on my car, I used .023 wire with straight CO2 and never had a problem with the topcoat after 8 years. My buddy shaved the door handles on his S-10 last summer and welded them with some jipper fluxcore MIG unit from Sears and is now having problems with bubbling of the skim coat of body filler that lost adhesion with the metal around the perimter of the weld. We pulled the interior panel and the metal is still all intact and straight with no cracks. The contamination caused problems as many custom body shops found out.The right tool for the job is MIG with mix or TIG. Unless you are made out of time, I'd forget the TIG.My $0.02
Reply:Originally Posted by ChamferTrodea: Perhaps that's why they are BODYMEN & not welders.
Reply:I appreciate the feedback. Let me just clarify that this is a work truck and is being used to haul my dirt bikes, and any other crap that needs to be carried off. The truck will be banged around, scratched and beaten by mud, rocks, trees and other random things leaning against it. I'm using this as a learning experience, and ultimately enjoyment when my job as an inner city high school teacher gets overwhelming. Thanks again for all the info.
Reply:I guess you could use stick with small rod and a light touch. I suspect that you will have a lot more burn-through with stick than with a MIG, however.Oxy-acetylene gas welding would be easier than stick and would give better results. I have seen a lot of body work done with O-A, including chopping, channeling, lowering tops and lead work. That's what the custom bulders used to use before wire feeders became common.I don't think that stick lends itself to thin, tempered sheet metal very well.Miller Millermatic 252Miller Syncrowave 200Liincoln AC-DC 225Victor O-A Set
Reply:Originally Posted by ChamferTrodea: Perhaps that's why they are BODYMEN & not welders. See belowb: Are you saying that the weld bead itself contains these contaminants? Because if you are, many, many jobs are performed SMAW, critical jobs, where contaminants are not allowed, so it seems these 'acids' would be non-existant.Or are you saying that a proper weld, both in lay-down and cleaning, that is cut down flush with the panel still contains flux? If you are, I assure you even without being ground down, as you suggest with the 'Easy-Grind', that is why it's called Easy_Grind, a properly made weld does not contain these "acids".Also, unless the O.P. has a F150 DeLorean, he will be primer sealing these panels, negating any reaction with the welds.
Reply:Guys, guys, guys....What is needed is a carbon arc.  EVERYTHING can be solved with CA and duct tape.ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:I worked in a paper and pulp mill for a few year,we used mostly stainless steel piping.The pipe was very thin gauge stainless, on occasion water would corrode through the pipe and we repaired it with out shutting down.I would cut a patch of stainless with a grinder and weld the pipe with water ****ing through it.I used 3/32 6010 rod with very low heat setting around maybe 40 to 50 amps.It made a good patch till we had our shutdown and replaced the line with a new piece and flange.I also used stick on sheet metal with a corner joint on some surge tanks,also put in threadolets and welded them to the tank.lIt is possible to weld thin metals using very low heat settings, personally though i would use MIG for sheet metal.
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702I think it's a bad idea personally.  Learning to weld with a Stick machine is one thing, forcing yourself to do the almost impossible is another.MIG, TIG, and Stick are all arc welding processes, and there are others as well.There are also some guys who do this for a living that say that flux-bearing processes are themselves a bad idea for quality finishes like autobody, so that would even include flux-cored wire in a wirefeeder.Part of learning how to weld is to use the best process for the job.  I highly recommend something like a Hobart Handler 140 with a C-25 shielding gas, .023" solid wire, or even the ESAB EasyGrind wire, which is designed specifically for easy grinding of autobody panels.
Reply:I believe using 6010 on autobody sheet metal would be almost impossible.  It's just too forceful of an arc and you'd be blowing through or at best "bubblegumming" the patch together.  6012 or 6013 would be better if you absolutely HAD to use SMAW.  A mig welder using Harris twenty gauge and C25 would be the proper way to do the job.WeldingWeb forum--now more sophomoric banter than anything else!
Reply:I have welded some very light gauge materials with a stick over the years, and if you are going to attempt this, then there is only one rod I can think of....  Lincoln 1/16" Fleetweld 37  You can turn the current down low and do fairly well, but being out of position fit up will be critical.  I still recommend a good mig setup or even possibly hooking a tig torch to your stick machine and trying some scratch start tig.  as far as the 6010 you have, I don't think you have a chance of welding material as thin as a body panel without making a mess.  ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by 69 chevy...A mig welder using Harris twenty gauge and C25 would be the proper way to do the job.
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702  Being a cored wire, I'm assuming it's a .030" diameter?!
Reply:Flux core has contaminants that will affect the synthetic filler, primers and topcoats in the future. Unless removed extensively (meaning deep), you will have finishes that lift or bubble in the future. Ask any professional bodyman that actually has real welding experience.
Reply:I don't think anyone here is trying to be a "salesman"  but to even imagine that a newbie can weld a body panel in with a stick is completely unreasonable.  The guys point out that the learning curve would be much easier to use another process.  Hell, I know guys who have been welding for YEARS, and are dang good welders who could not weld a body panel in with a stick.  If you read his original post  the last line asks....." I know ARC is not the easiest route for this job but is it a bad way to go?"Is it a bad way to go?????  In my opinion yes it is.   There is a right way to do things and a wrong way I prefer to advise a person learning to weld the BEST way to go about a job.  Leading them into a situation that most experienced welders can't pull off is going to only cause them problems and possibly cause them to doubt there abilities.  I personally think he got some valuable information if he chooses to accept it.  ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Just for free info, From the Procedure handbook of arc welding by lincoln, .048 (18 ga) flat position 3/32 6010 DCEN 40 amps22-26" per minute travel speed6011 AC 50 amps 20-24 ipm.3/32 6010 Downhill 55 amps 23-28 Ipm travel speed3/32 6013 DCEN 70 amps 14 to 18 ipm flat or horizaltal fillet.DavidThe last one would be my first choice.I don't think I could do it.  I'd just use the 110 volt MIG.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I guess if you are the first guy to give an opinion to a thread, you're allowed to get offended if many of the rest of us have a different opinion?  Get over it.  The OP is certainly capable of deciding what he wants to do based on all the opinions he receives.What is the gauge thickness of autobody sheet?  Seems thinner than 18...
Reply:I'd bet the farm that '85 F-150 body panels are thinner than 18ga.  And JC Whitney patch panels are probably even thinner.Another thing to consider is that many A\C buzzboxes do not have a tap lower than 50 amps...he said he acquired an old Lincoln, probably a tombstone.So, no matter that the rod is 3\32", if you're pumping 50 amps A\C through it, there's a good chance it's gonna be too HOT.WeldingWeb forum--now more sophomoric banter than anything else!
Reply:I had a Thunderbird that had the striker broken out of the door post.  I had my SP100 as low as it went to keep from burning through the sheet metal. No way could I do it with stick.The smallest I have welded with stick is exhaust parts.  6013 DCEN is the only way I could do it.  Man was I greatfull when the SP 100 came out.  I bought one of the first ones.  Still have it.18 guage is as low as the book goes.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.Most panels i have dealt with (Back when i was working in the body shop while in College)  were thinner than 18ga.  I learned to weld on 16ga-18ga sheet metal transitions in the Cotton Gin my dad ran years ago.  If you are gonna consider body panels with a stick you will have to get a smaller rod than a 3/32"    I'll tell ya what I keep 5 pounds of 5/64" 6013's in the truck.  I might still have some 1/16" in the shop.  I have an old fender in the scrap pile I replaced on a service truck, and I will play with it tomorrow if time allows and post some pics of what i get.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by ChamferTrodePerhaps you should ask a professional welder to instruct you on how to lay down a proper weld, and you wouldn't have this contamination. If you leave slag inclusions, cold lap, porous welds, of course you leave slag behind, a proper weld will be clean & free of these problems you bodymen suffer.Don't blame the process for your short-comings. The O.P. asked for advice using a stick machine, and the answers he got was use a different process, what are all of you, salesmen?
Reply:"Perhaps you should ask a professional welder to instruct you on how to lay down a proper weld, and you wouldn't have this contamination. If you leave slag inclusions, cold lap, porous welds, of course you leave slag behind, a proper weld will be clean & free of these problems you bodymen suffer.Don't blame the process for your short-comings.The O.P. asked for advice using a stick machine, and the answers he got was use a different process, what are all of you, salesmen?"Well, maybe YOU could teach all of us dummies how to weld since after all, YOU seem to be convinced that you invented the processs of joining metal.I can get my car to the top of a hill by using a come-along, wheel chocks and some chain, but don't you think it would be easier to use the engine? Yeah...that's exactly as I thought.
Reply:Originally Posted by turboblown"Perhaps you should ask a professional welder to instruct you on how to lay down a proper weld, and you wouldn't have this contamination. If you leave slag inclusions, cold lap, porous welds, of course you leave slag behind, a proper weld will be clean & free of these problems you bodymen suffer.Don't blame the process for your short-comings.The O.P. asked for advice using a stick machine, and the answers he got was use a different process, what are all of you, salesmen?"Well, maybe YOU could teach all of us dummies how to weld since after all, YOU seem to be convinced that you invented the processs of joining metal.I can get my car to the top of a hill by using a come-along, wheel chocks and some chain, but don't you think it would be easier to use the engine? Yeah...that's exactly as I thought.
Reply:Originally Posted by turboblownWell, maybe YOU could teach all of us dummies how to weld since after all, YOU seem to be convinced that you invented the processs of joining metal
Reply:Originally Posted by ChamferTrodeYou can't teach what doesn't want to be learned.You and the others are convinced it can't be done, your feeling is go buy a different machine, gas, specialty wire, to replace a couple panels. I'm in favor of expanding your knowledge & talent, not reducing the thickness of your wallet.
Reply:Originally Posted by jamlitO.P. try to do the best you can if you want to try your stick welder or thats all you have and see what you can do. If on the other hand you are wanting to do a good job and are planing on doing more of this type of work. Look at getting a mig welder and gas. you will never regret it.
Reply:Originally Posted by PatrickJWell, it's put up or shut up time, let's see the "beginners guide to stick welding body panels" thread.  I really want to know how to do it, if I can stick weld 18 Gauge or thinner, the thicker stuff should be easy.  How do you control warping on steel that thin with a stick welder?
Reply:Originally Posted by ChamferTrode...You and the others are convinced it can't be done,...
Reply:I don't think anyone said "It can't be done"  But I don't think a newbie has a snow ball's chance in hell of pulling it off.   If you are talented enough to pull it off then  help the guy out by doing it and showing him how you went about it.   If that saying is true,  "Those who can, Do"  let's see ya do it?  As mentioned before. It's put up or shut up time.   Part of being a good welder is knowing what is the best way to handle a job.  I stand by the idea a stick isn't, and never will be the best way to go about this project.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by Hammack_WeldingI don't think anyone said "It can't be done"  But I don't think a newbie has a snow ball's chance in hell of pulling it off.   If you are talented enough to pull it off then  help the guy out by doing it and showing him how you went about it.   If that saying is true,  "Those who can, Do"  let's see ya do it?  As mentioned before. It's put up or shut up time.   Part of being a good welder is knowing what is the best way to handle a job.  I stand by the idea a stick isn't, and never will be the best way to go about this project.
Reply:Originally Posted by ChamferTrode...At least my statement does not have a person spending hard earned dollars to be set up for a potential failure....
Reply:Can a noob do MIG on autobody panels or sheet metal around 18 gauge or so and have a decent chance of doing an OK job?  Yup.  A little practice and a little coordination and they probably could do an OK job.  I'd tell them to start their practice on material a little bit thicker, cause it's real easy to blow through thin stuff.  Maybe start with some 1/8 inch (11 ga) and practice for a while and see how arc welding goes, watch the puddle, etc, etc.  MIG is an 'easier' process to learn and do than some other welding processes.  And small MIG machines are one of the "right tools for the job" to weld sheet metal and auto panels.Can a noob do SMAW/stick welding on sheet metal or autobody panels and do an OK job?  Not very likely at all.  Maybe they are a welding savant and could stick weld two razor blades together, but the chances are pretty slim.  SMAW is not generally the right tool for the job of welding sheet metal together, even for a really good and experienced welder.What do the factories use for body panels or sheet metal?  MIG or spot welds, usually done by robots.  What do body shops or custom fabricators use to do body panels or sheet metal?  MIG or TIG or spot welds, maybe O/A.  Old-school or high-end body shops might solder the panels together.But almost none of them would use SMAW/stick to weld body panels or sheet metal.
Reply:That's what I was thinking, too.  The OP asked for advice.  He got it.  SMAW will be EXTREMELY difficult, if he can do it at all.  Plus, on the parts that DO stick together without holes, the slag inclusions are going to be common, hence the advice on finishing, too.Also, I do not see "potential failure" at all with a proper GMAW set-up.  This would not take much time at all to learn how to do and is clearly the right tool for the job.Yes, it would cost money.  The OP can now decide to spend the money on the equipment, spend the money hiring out the job to someone with GMAW, or spend the great amount of time and frustration on what is a high case for "potential failure."
Reply:"But you are saying a noob using MIG has, which is as bad as, if not worse, than what I said. At least my statement does not have a person spending hard earned dollars to be set up for a potential failure.Isn't that contradictory? Can, Do/Can't, Teach. Besides if I could teach welding over the internet, I'd be a millionaire.And part of being "a pretty good welding man" is saving your opinion till you are a good welder."Chamfertoad,  Just how do you know what my welding ability is?  and I can guarantee if anyone sounds ignorant on this thread it's definitely not me.   Yea I am saying it would be tons easier and that he could do it with a mig set up.   A prime example would be Rustywrangler's thread on patching his sheet metal.  He has only been welding a short time and has done a good job with his project and a small mig setup.  And as far as my opinion goes he asked for it and he got it.       Before you start attacking me and my welding ability you had better know what you are talking about.    I have posted my work on this board many times for the critique of others, and have done my best to help the ones who ask for it If I am informed on the subject, and I might add I am informed on this one.  Do i calim to be the best?  hell no, but I'm dang sure good at what I do.  I don't make a living with it if I wasn't, and I don't appreciate anyone who has never even seen my work  down it.  Especially when they can't attempt and post a simple demonstration they claim can be done.   I tell ya what.   I'm done with this thread  To many good guys on here to help, and socialize with to deal with this .....  ya'll have fun........I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by CkosmoI appreciate the advice. I'll play around with some sheet metal I have in garage before I attempt to do it on truck. If it's a mess I'll come up with a Plan B. All the major rust spots are covered so the body work can wait until I have a sufficient option. I have enjoyed these posts and am learning a great deal.Thank You
Reply:For once I'm not involved... No further comment......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Chamfer - you aren't offering any help in this thread. Your only point in contributing to this thread is to cut down others comments. Instead of degrading what others have posted, why not become the positive influence here and post what options YOU would do if YOU were in his shoes.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:FWIW, Chamfer's first post was very useful info about how to go about this job if SMAW was the only option and he wanted to attempt it despite it's difficulties.There was just nothing wrong with pointing out that some of us feel it would be well worth considering a MUCH, MUCH better process.
Reply:Originally Posted by ChamferTrodeYou can't teach what doesn't want to be learned.You and the others are convinced it can't be done, your feeling is go buy a different machine, gas, specialty wire, to replace a couple panels. I'm in favor of expanding your knowledge & talent, not reducing the thickness of your wallet.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapster   For once I'm not involved... No further comment......zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by zapster...For once I'm not involved...
Reply:Interesting.   Hammack this one is for you.I have said it before and will say it again.  I have been welding 30 years.  I coulnd't do it.  The book sez 18 ga is the smallest and if you read closly, it has perfect set up with really high welding speeds.  How many body panels are flat?  How many have PERFECT fitup?I am not arguing with anyone.  I don't like seeing people being personally attacked.  I have yet to see one of the "Real Professionals" post pictures of body panels welded with stick.  SO maybe one of those could post a pic?  Show ME that it can be done.   Some one else said it "Put up or shut up".David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by CkosmoHey All,  ~~ Snip ~~ I have some 6010 on hand. Should I use these or are there better ones?
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702I was waiting for your experienced input in this thread, too.  But it degraded too quickly for some to want to bother. Can't blame you.