Hi-freq killing lights???

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Not sure if this would be better here or in the electrical forum, but.........  Until I finish building my new shop I am in a small one that I setup to get by with for now.  I have  4ft Flourescent lights, and every time I fire up my tig on Aluminum using the hi-freq the lights go crazy, flashing and flickering etc...  and Since I have been working on alot of aluminum lately I can't keep ballast in my lights.  Has anyone else had a problem like this?  I have about a week left cleaning up where my new shop is going to be built before I start hanging lights and running conduit.  I don't want to have the same problem in my new shop.  any help would be appreciated.  ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Sounds like your TIG is on the same circuit as the lights...maybe even the same breaker. Have you checked your main box to see what breaker operates what?John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Check what Microzone said. Is your current wiring ran in metal conduit?Last edited by tresi; 07-15-2007 at 10:23 PM.
Reply:They aren't on the same circuit.  I installed a 200amp main , and have five welders run off of five separate breakers.  No more than two will ever be used at the same time.  I do however have the lights and some duplex outlets on the same circuit (30amp), but the welders, drill press, air compressor, lathes, and mill are all on their own individual breaker.  That's what confuses me about this.  This building is an older wood frame with tin covered farm building and we did not use conduit to run the wiring since this is only a temporary location.  We ran the wire tight to the rafters or wall board, and stapled every so often to keep them from moving around. We did run two lines in conduit, but only because they were placed outside on the far end from the main panel so a couple welders could be rolled outside since alot of equipment we work on is to big for this building.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:How is it grounded?John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Hammack, try this: Check the neutral and ground leads in the box. Make sure that if there are seperate bars, keep the neutrals on one bar, the grounds on the other bar. If there is no seperate bar, keep the neutral that goes to the light far as possible from the neutral to the welder. If the ground is no good, you will have issues, too. But this sounds like the juice is acting up with the neutral leads. If you don't have a seperate neutral from the ground to the welder, install one in the conduit, or install a ground lug-nut on the conduit connection inside your new panel. Then, positively ground the conduit there. See if that will help.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:This is the problem I was attempting to avoid when I made my first post. I've seen it before and wanted to avoid it. Let us know what you do and what seems to be the fix Jackson.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:Sounds like interference due to improper grounding.  Never had to personally solve this problem, but Miller has good info in many of their user manuals.  I've tried to attach a copy of the Miller grounding diagram, but the file is too large.  Browse some Miller TIG power supply manuals online and you'll find what I'm talking about.  They show "the wrong way" and "the right way" to ground a HF system.
Reply:I agree with Pulsar, which is why I asked about grounding a few posts up. Before consulting my Miller manual for my TIG, my lights used to dim when it was cranked up. Once grounded correctly, according to their recommendations, it was fine.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Well as far as the grounding.  I have a 6ft copper ground rod driven down right beside the meter base, and it grounds the meter base and the main panel.  The neutrals are on a different bar than the grounds are in the main....  The only tig i have set up in this building is my little lincoln 175 with the standard 3 prong plug.  After seeing what is going on with it i was scared to hook up my larger unit until I get this solved.  The neutral/ground issue has me thinking.  Is the center spade on a welder plug a neutral or a ground?  The lights are 110V, but are grounded.  as of right now I have two hots and a neutral running to my welder, perhaps it should be 2 hots and a ground?   The last shop i had I did not have a problem and I believe it was wired just as this one is....  This thing is driving me nuts...........  ~JacksonThanks for all the helpI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Well I just talked to the guys at lincoln,and according to them the wiring needs to be in a grounded rigid metal conduit to the welder.  I guess I will run a new line tomorrow in conduit, and hopefully that solves the problem.  Shouldn't take long as it is only a few feet from the main.  Thanks again for the help.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Are they thinking you might be leaking HF through your hardwire between the box and the machine ?leaking (for lack of electrical knowledge of the correct term)Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:Normally with a 220 outlet (3-prong) you'd have 2 hots and a ground, not a neutral. For what it's worth.- John
Reply:Well Olddad, they didn;t say, but I am assuming that is what they were eluding to.   They just said that they recommend the wire to be in rigid metal conduit that is grounded.  It's also a possibility that the trouble could be coming from having a neutral instead of a ground wired to my plug.  I am going to move that wire over to the "ground" bar in the morning just to see if that has an effect then I'll run another line in conduit for this machine and see what is does.  This in only a temporary shop so I was avoiding spending that much extra money to run conduit but just for two tig machines it won't b e much.  Especially considering how much I have spent on lights so far. lolI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:HF travels superimposed over what ever electricity is there.  With conduit, it will not get out of the metal shielding around the power wires.  Sort of like coax cable.  Should cure your problem.  The conduit is also a ground, so the HF cannot go anywhere but ground.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Makes sense to me...that's why they have shielded and un-shielded twisted pair cabling. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:This is a neutral and/or a ground problem.Also, if HF-RF is getting out of the welder in the first place, maybe it's time to consider a better built machine. This machine could also be in violation of FCC regulations if it is radiating ANY RF back through its power source. No device that creates RF can emit it in the US unless allowed by the FCC.
Reply:Did you actually read the posts  It isn't the machine - the high freq is not contained in the electrical system - proper grounding = no problemsFire!, Fire! Oh wait, that's my torch...Lincoln PT-225 TIGLincoln 175 MIG
Reply:I'm sure the ground is the biggest problem. I was told to always run the circuit for a HF machine in metal conduit. I don't think it needs to be ridgid, EMT should do fine.
Reply:Start with proper grounding first. You said yourself that you have it as two hots and a nuetral when you think it should be a ground. Check what the wiring is supposed to be.If it says two hots and a nuetral, your still missing the ground and it is the most likely source of your troubles. Try that before deciding you have to rerun the circuit in pipe.Latest Toys Miller 180 Mig and Elite Mask!!Wright Welder 225ACShop OutFitters 20/20 Bending SystemHypertherm 380 Plasma30 Years of Sparking (Electrical & Welding)
Reply:Check the Miller and Lincoln websites and the manual (or other HF TIG manuals) for info on grounding and bonding and conduit for HF TIG set-ups.I've seen the info I think for some Miller equipment and/or on the Miller site, it is relatively straightforward but sort of involved.Basically, the HF from the arc is radiating out like a radio broadcast and being picked up by other metal objects or wires nearby.  The solution is to put the wiring into EMT or other metallic conduit that is properly grounded and bonded, so that the HF radio signal hits the pipe and goes right to the ground wire.Oh, and pretty much -anything- metal within 50ft of the welding zone is supposed to be bonded and grounded, so that it doesn't pick up the HF and possibly re-radiate it to someplace else.  So the metal building panels need to have a wire run to the ground rod if they don't already.See Page 8 and 9 of Miller's TIG overview here http://www.millerwelds.com/interests...rs/pdf/TIG.pdf for info about HF and grounding/bonding metal things in the welding zone.Also, your 220-240V welder is supposed to have two hots and a ground.  Not a neutral.
Reply:Guys just thought i would let ya know what i found.  I checked my wiring and i did have a neutral with two hots rather than a ground.  I moved the wire over to the ground bar in the main panel and it GREATLY reduced the effects on the lights.  I am going to go ahead and run a new line in conduit today when I have a chance, and hopefully it should solve the problem.  Thanks for the help.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Moonrise, just looking at that diagram.....  I hope the Conduit works.  The size of this shop is only 30 x30, and If I have to ground every metal object with in 50ft I'm in trouble to say the least, lol  ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Way to go Jackson! Glad you got her fixed up good.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com