Help with cast aluminum

admin

Hello,Ive been having a hard time welding cast aluminum. Im not sure why. What im trying to do is weld up two holes shut on a cast aluminum oil pan. I went out to my local metal supermarket store and bought a 1 2/8 in. diameter round solid rod to put in the holes and then weld it up on each side of the pan.here is one side ive been trying to welding up. For some reason im having a hard time trying to weld these two together. I just cant seem to keep the bead going When i weld, i keep getting black residue and smoke and getting contaminated. Ive cleaned the casting good around the area of welding. But when i weld on a regular piece of aluminum plating i have no trouble.Here is the other side i havent started on.Here is my setup. The gauge shows im getting reallly really low on gas. Im not sure how much i have left, since ive been reading that these gauges are not accurate.Thanks, brent.
Reply:If you clean the bark off the cast it will weld much easier.Turn the wave balance all the way to cleaning, but not auto and try again.  It works for  me on cast aluminum.Nice machine!DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Thanks for the Input David R. I will try that and practice on some other cast scrap pieces i have.
Reply:I've done tons of this stuff..The problem is cast vs. billett plug..5356 filler..The amps are OK..The flow is OK...The volume is low..Edit..Turn it down to 14-15..save your gas..The tungestion is contaminated... The second you touch the filler or subject with the tungestion stop!!Regrind and continue..Or better yet have 4 or 5 ready to go..Clean it first!!!Acetone..Stainless Wire brush...You need to weld it in..The crap will rise to the top..Grind off the crap..Acetone...Wire brush...And repeat as many times as needed to get no crap left at the top of the puddle..It takes awhile but you can do it.. ...zap!Last edited by zapster; 07-19-2007 at 09:19 PM.I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:An aluminum oil pan can be a pain to weld.  Sometimes the oil will impregnate in the pores of the casting and is tough to clean out.  as David mentioned turn your cleaning up.  Brush the heck out of it with a stainless brush clean with acetone and sometimes on semi truck pans I have heated the area to help burn the oil out then just brush and clean with acetone and try it again.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Seriously, that looks pretty good for a weld on oil impregnated cast aluminum.  You are going to get porosity.  Chemical washes sometimes help to clean out the aluminum, but the easiest thing to do is weld it, grind the weld off, re-weld, and repeat until you get a clean weld without porosity. The repeated welding will cook the oil out of the metal.
Reply:hey,Thanks for all the help.Ok here is what i did, from what you guys told me:-I turned my flow of gas down to 15-I put my AC balance almost all the way on the clean side, just above to where its not on autobalance.-I grinded the cast aluminum down lightly until no more bark is on.-I used the brush wheel to smooth it out-I used 80 grit sandpaper to smooth it out even more-Then i washed it with soap and water to clean from contaminations -Then i brushed it -Then i used Acetone to clean for final contaminationsResults, Of coarse i need alot more practice, but all that stuff really helped. Am i still going to fast? Also i still see a little bit of black residue on the side of the welds, In the pic i brushed after i welded, but there were residue.When i turned my flow of gas down, for some reason it keeps going back up a little bit.Here is the stuff i used.Thanks, brent
Reply:The reason your gas is "going up" even though you turned it down is because you have no real pressure left to let the guages do their job as to type..Forget the soap and water..Loose the sandpaper.. All you need is the stainless toothbrush and the acetone...The hi speed wire brush is not needed also...Clean is king when doing this stuff...But there's no reason to over do it..The acetone and toothbrush with some clean rags will do.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:And by the way..Your beads look great!Just try to "tighten them up" a bit.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Thanks zap!I guess i was a little anal about cleaning, i just wanted to make sure the aluminum was clean before welding. Tomorrow im going to try and get more gas if can and practice more.
Reply:Good job!John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Okay I'll throw my hat in the ring here!I agree with zap that the plug is a bad idea. I would just tig it shut. Thats about the only thing I agree with tho.#1 on cast I would use 4043 not 5356, thats pretty much standard.#2 only grind the very edges like where you are chamfering not anywhere else because the grinding wheel crap will impregnate your weld. Grinding on aluminum is something you should keep to a absolute minimum and try to use blades whenever possible for shaping...much cleaner. But make sure that your weld is 100% thrue the part...ie....grind out "air" on both sides.#3 For removing the patina or aluminum oxide DO USE that high speed brush it works great and don't take off a bunch of material in the process.#4 As far as acetone goes I know everybody on the web is in love with it but to me its pretty much a waste of time and really don't know too many actual "pros" that use it much. Not to metion it's exsplosive and a health hazard as well..I always have it on hand and almost NEVER use it myself. And I sure as hell NEVER use a freakin' rag!! They rake of a ton of particules. I worked all my life in welding shops and you just don't see guys stopping and getting out their acetone and acetone soaked rags and wiping down stuff and welding and then re-acetoning and welding again if they are seasoned pros. Osha would have a heyday here! It might work, but if you went to get a job tigging aluminum and stopped and told the boss you needed the acetone and rags so you could weld something they would laugh yer butt right outa there. I think it's a crutch and sort of an obbsesive compulsive habit.#5 Keep the sandpaper but it is for use after welding not before.#6 I love the soap and water only I do it a little different...Use Castrol Superclean full strength and rinse with water...it works fantastic on aluminum engine parts and was designed for just that very purpose. (it will etch polished surfaces tho) It is a lifesaver when welding fuel tanks as well. I don't use it all the time either. The torch and the brush method will purify almost everything.Once again IMO#7 always burn the edges of your cast welds before you add filler sort of like a fusion bead...this will bring the crud to the top...if you get crud brush it away. Litle bit of crud use the toothbrush, lot of crud use the high speed brush. Then do the fusion thing again..the bead should be nearly perfectly clean.#8 Now for your beads...I won't bs you here...on cast repair those won't get it. It ain't about pretty dime stacking. You are moving way to fast. Look at those edges like you mentioned, they need to "flow in" with no porosity or it will be weaker and if it needs to be a undetectable repair then you will have to flow over it however many times it takes before all the porosity is gone. It will turn almost white when you do this. This is the most important part of casting repair and once you totaly master it you will find that a lot of the prep will become less important...learn to watch your edges blend while welding any type of aluminum. (or anything else for that matter)#9 If you chose to dress your work to hide the fact it was repaired only grind on the weld itself not on the casting untill nearly flush. Leave a little material here because aluminum "smears" and you will grind it below flush before the edges blend. I can't say enuff about not rushing this and I tell people I am really a grinder who knows how to weld. A soft touch here really pays off. Next go to a flap disc if possible or some type of paper or cloth abrasive working with the weld mainly. This is when the porosity will start to appear if you didn't blend the edges of your welds completely. You may need to tig the little spots back over again and reflapdisc it again before final sanding. If you go to a variable speed die grinder and play with stones here you can almost perfectly match the texture of the original casting and if you didn't know where to look you would never notice it was repaired, esp. over time. I fix a lot of hard to find rare parts in this method and get lots of return biz from it. Sometimes it just blows my mind. Usually when I go off the deep end on the texturing I don't charge a lot for that ......I consider that free advertising. The best investment you could ever make is in your own business!! Not trying to say my methods are the proper way or anyone else is wrong just that's how I've doing it and getting paid for it very well. I hope I ain't coming off to strong here just trying to pass on a little real world exp. here. I pick a lot of new ideas on the web as well and am always looking for better ways to do stuff.Last edited by FusionKing; 07-21-2007 at 12:26 AM.Miller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!
Reply:Thanks for the tips FusionKing.So to make this a little more understandable for me.As far as the cleaning part goes, All i really need to do is brush it (using the wheel or stainless brush) and use water and Detergents such as (Soap or the castrol cleaning stuff) for good results, Then when comes time to weld just make sure that my beads get good fusion to the casting and go a lot slower. Then after that, Grind the welds down from that weld being contaminated, and reweld it for a stronger, cleaner weld.It just seem like however much i try and get the casting as clean as i can, when comes time for welding, there is always this black crap that keeps getting into the bead. And to get rid of that, i have to grind the bead down and reweld it? I have no problems on aluminum plating. Its just this casting thats hard.Thanks, brent
Reply:I have NO use for acetone on a rag in a welding shop.  I usually use a SS wire brush by hand until the aluminum is BRIGHT.  Just MY opinion.  For cast, I use a grinding wheel made for aluminum.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:When grinding aluminum you need a wheel specified for aluminum.  When you use a disk designed for steel it is made from aluminum oxide which is the very thing you are trying to remove from the material in the first place.  Sandpaper is also aluminum oxide.  A "STAINLESS" high speed brush is great, but it needs to be stainless not a steel brush.  Steel will break off and imbed in the aluminum thus causing problems when welding.    I keep acetone on hand all the time, and I use it from time to time, it depends on the situation.  I have had plenty of times that nothing else would work.  (sometimes oil pans I have dealt with were impossible to clean without using acetone even after cleaning with my high pressure steam cleaner.   As far as the rags go, Zap said, "clean rags"  I took that as after brushing loose all the crap have something without oil, dirt or trash on it to wipe away the crud or contaminants which I do quite often when using acetone.  If you just brush it and leave it to dry the contaminates are still there when the acetone evaporates.  I don't think he ever intended to recommend to wash the part with a rag.  However given the photos of Zaps work that he has posted over the years if anyone here is a seasoned pro  Zap would be it.....I do agree that your beads need more heat, but I like your consistency.     It basically boils down to different stroke for different folks.  Keep in mind though that when working with Aluminum use a STAINLESS brush only, hand or grinder mounted is fine, and only wheels designed for grinding aluminum.  It will make things easier in the long run.....I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:OK let me clarify....I would use the Superclean only because THAT casting is a nasty old oil pan. As far as welding and then grinding and then rewelding....that ain't what I meant. When you get "good" you will sometimes get it in the first pass...edges and all.The only way your re-weld would be stronger is if you dig it completely out and start over. I am saying reweld on edges if needed to eliminate porosity so it wil be 100% thickness. If you have a porosity laden edge along the weld that is exactly where it will bust because it is basically perforated there.On the rag part what I am driving at is castings are rough it don't matter if it's a new rag or not it will leave pieces behind.If you gotta use acetone then squirt it or dump it and use a hand brush.If the part is polished rags will only scratch if not VERY careful.I am sure that Zap has got his technique perfected and that works for him.He likes the acetone and rags and I like the wheel brush and burn out method.BTW if you see black crud in your weld that means the crud DID float up. If you are not going to metal finish it and are looking for a "pretty and impressive" bead then you will have to re-weld over after removing the crud. If you use a gringing wheel, even one made for aluminum you will just imbed more crud in the weld....so use the stainless brush instead in between wash passes. If you ARE going to metal finish it then as long as the edges are flowed nicely without porosity the crud you see really don't matter cause it floated to the top just like it was supposed to do!! Just begin the grinding sanding process cause the crud is not in the weld just on top.I buy tons of the aluminum grinding wheels...they are designed to not load up and keep cutting....not to make for clean weld prep. They really have no place in a "critical" weld cause the still leave some junk behind and you must have a "mechanical process" follow up behind their usage such as a stainless brush, carbide cutters etc.The main thing on a casting is flowing the edges before adding filler...this flows the crud out BEFORE welding as opposed to DURING welding. It also flows out a bunch of porosity at the same time. Then keyhole weld it and flow the back side as well. Generally I begin with HUGE gaps because the turn out tons better in the end. I am not trying to be contraversal here but rather help people step up their game a little and save some time in the process.Where I need to grow is in the area of typing speed and just how to operate computers in general and so if you guys don't mind putting up with me I don't mind passing along some of my expertise as well.Miller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by Hammack_WeldingAn aluminum oil pan can be a pain to weld.  Sometimes the oil will impregnate in the pores of the casting and is tough to clean out.  as David mentioned turn your cleaning up.  Brush the heck out of it with a stainless brush clean with acetone and sometimes on semi truck pans I have heated the area to help burn the oil out then just brush and clean with acetone and try it again.
Reply:#1 on cast I would use 4043 not 5356, thats pretty much standard.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterI'm sorry to fill you in but that statment is backwards.. 5356 for cast or anything that will be annodized...4043 is for Billett...And if you disagree..Too bad.....zap!
Reply:Its all in the silicone content of the filler my friend...I did military work..And thats the way it was...What facts do you have to say opposite??...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I'll agree with the anodized part. 4043 will turn black when anodized. Actually both 4043 and 5356 have a good deal of overlap in their applications and field results determine the final choices for many things. 4043 is a good bit softer and will solve cracking problems a lot of the time. 5356 is a stronger filler and will do much better in destructive testing esp. in fillet welds.Both of you guys are asking for facts....I read 'em just really don't know how to link them to this site so I'll work on that! I mean heck what do I know?? I am nothing but a lowly solderer!!BTW what castings would require WELDING for the military? I would think that as cast would be all they need. I believe that this is the first time I recall someone saying to use 5356 as a general casting repair rod.Miller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!
Reply:Naturally 5356 is best for annodizing due to it's ability to take color better. Wouldn't 4043 with it's ability to withstand cracking be better for cast welding ? I would "butter" up the cast surface to remove all the crap. As was stated, once you've got a good surface to weld to the only thing left to do is fill the hole.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:Well I just Googled about half the internet and found almost nothing refering to using 5356 on cast  unless you are joining it to wrought and very few alloys even then.And then I ran across the easiest to find site for everybody to find...Lincolns section on their filler rods.  They just flat say 4043 is their cast tig rod. I would hate to think of the litterally hundreds (possibly thousands) of repair jobs that I had done wrong as recently as today.  It just makes me shudder. That was a close oneMiller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!
Reply:From all this, I picked up the part about running a bead with no filler to float the crap to the top.  Why didn't I think of that?Going to do it on my next cast aluminum part.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Yea it works good. I think I prolly have told you guys every thing I know.Miller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!Originally Posted by FusionKing...#4 As far as acetone goes I know everybody on the web is in love with it but to me its pretty much a waste of time and really don't know too many actual "pros" that use it much. ...I always have it on hand and almost NEVER use it myself. .... I worked all my life in welding shops and you just don't see guys stopping and getting out their acetone and acetone soaked rags and wiping down stuff and welding and then re-acetoning and welding again if they are seasoned pros. ... It might work, but if you went to get a job tigging aluminum and stopped and told the boss you needed the acetone and rags so you could weld something they would laugh yer butt right outa there. I think it's a crutch and sort of an obbsesive compulsive habit......Not trying to say my methods are the proper way or anyone else is wrong just that's how I've doing it and getting paid for it very well. I hope I ain't coming off to strong here just trying to pass on a little real world exp. here.
Reply:^^^ And this man right here, in regards to attitude, ethic, and quality of work, is the epitome of professionalism.  And I mean that.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabFusionKing....your input/experience is appreciated but a word of advice from me (as a fellow weldor and not a moderator of this site), just try to give it without the attitude. You say that you don't want to "come off too strong"? Well, a good way to come off smelling like rotten Limburger cheese is to insult people and their methods that you might not use or understand without knowing who they are.This site is full of some of the most talented people I've ever been able to interact with, whether they consider themselves "professional" or not. I am constantly seeing and learning new things.You may be a good weldor, you may be a great weldor....I don't know, I haven't seen any of your work but I can say that by your comments in this thread I definitely wouldn't consinder you a professional.... and BTW, I use acetone constantly.- Paul
Reply:For all you guys know I may only be 12 yrs old and never really struck an ark.
Reply:Whilst I would never portray myself as a professional welder we do, do Aluminium  tig at work.I never use acetone nor stainless brushes , but, every thing is linished prior to welding with various tool depending on its profile using scotch brite belts  Admittedly virtually all our welding is with new material (no repairs) and with 6060,6061 and 6063.Ive often noticed this method is rarely mentioned and its been my experience that it is superior to stainless brushes both in speed and quality of final clean.Of course as with brushes you can contaminate them if used on another medium.I highly recommend people should "give it a go".It is interesting the different approaches various posters have to the same endeavor.
Reply:Man man, things are starting to get spicy in here, Please keep on topic. I will simply just try everyones method that i know of and try em out, or put some of those methods together and try em out and see what works for me best.I have yet gotten any gas, been busy, but im going to soon, and keep practicing on this casting stuff.I really appreciate all the input, i didnt expect the arguments. hehe.The guy fusionking was talking about named Engloid, i know who he is (not in person, but seeing alot of his post on a forum called honda-tech, there is a welding section in there where he goes, he hasnt been on for a really long time there, not sure what happend to him) But he is a really good welder just like any of you professionals are.here is some of his workhttp://mywebpages.comcast.net/engloi.../workpics.htmlthanks, brentLast edited by disepyon; 07-22-2007 at 08:17 PM.
Reply:Engloid is a member here also...Last thing I saw from him was crash footage of him and his bike on a track somewhere.. ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:All of you have made some great inputs here.  I don't usually step into firefights, but I may have something to add about aluminum castings.  For the most part, I follow the procedure FUSIONKING uses.  I like the pre-heat method to burn out the crap, then clean.  I begin with fusion also.  The first thing I look for is the green colored plume.  If I see that, I know there is magnesium in the casting and I use 5356 as filler.  I also make a living welding castings and lots of auto and motorcycle parts are made with castings that contain magnesium.
Reply:All of you have made some great inputs here.  I don't usually step into firefights, but I may have something to add about aluminum castings.  For the most part, I follow the procedure FUSIONKING uses.  I like the pre-heat method to burn out the crap, then clean.  I begin with fusion also.  The first thing I look for is the green colored plume.  If I see that, I know there is magnesium in the casting and I use 5356 as filler.  I also make a living welding castings and lots of auto and motorcycle parts are made with castings that contain magnesium.
Reply:Good point about the magnesium, hadn't given that a thought.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:There is some Almag out there alright. Not to mention just plain old Magnesium too, but you can usually tell it right off tho cause man it is light.I had to buy rod like ...heck I don't know...10 yrs or so ago and Airgas charged me $75 for a pound.Got lucky and fixed an old McCulloch(sp?) chainsaw the other day. I bet I ain't used 10 rods TOTAL...Looks like at this rate I got my lifes supply of it.Hey Mcgirrt have you ran across any of that crap that "GROWS" when you lay the torch to it?? Man that stuff is weird!!Miller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!
Reply:I ran into the same thing with AIRGAS and couldn't justify the cost because I was getting zero calls for magnesium welding.  My dad had some AZ61A stashed away, and I use it sometimes on aircraft support equipment (stands etc.)  I have also tigged pot metal a few times with filler my dad gave me.  Talk about wierd.
Reply:Well, I tried it.  Today I was building a fan and belt guard out of 3 x3 x 1/4" aluminum.  The deal we made was I use his equipment and shop.  First I used a snap on 200 amp MIG machine with a spool gun.  The arc would not stay consistent.  He has a Hobart 330 something AC DC sine wave welder with a water cooled torch. Big Bertha.  So I used that.  Worked OK but nothing like a square wave machine.  I went over both sides of the groove with the torch and no filler before I welded them.  It worked great.  I am a believer.  I have no use for Acetone in any form in a welding shop.  Its just a thing of mine.  Way too much of a fire hazard for me.  So I learned something out of all this.ThanksDavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Thats HILARIOUS!! I am about the opposite....I always have a little oval can of acetone in the van with me...just waitin' for the day I light it off !! What I ussually end up using it for is when I screw up painting somthing I need to wipe it off quick and it's ok for that. Same goes for if I needed it for something nasty I had to weld. I like it on "special" occasions like birthdays etc.!!Btw some of those "old" welders were fantastic...sorta like old weldOrs!!Miller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!