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If you were going to build 4 metal buildings. Ranging from 30x30 to 100x40 with 30ft lean to's down both sides..and you had to go with Miller equipment what would you buy?I was thinking of a trail blazer 302 gas engineand possibly a mig welder that is somewhat portable I need to be able to use flux core.Give me all your ideas.
Reply:Originally Posted by stumpfinderand you had to go with Miller equipment what would you buy?
Reply:I have plenty of guns stop on by the house we can set it up for you.Anybody have some decent input out there?
Reply:If these are engineered steel buildings you probably will have little, if any welding to do.  How thick do you anticipate, sheetmetal or structural?Bench work or in the air?
Reply:Personally I'd rather have a stinger with a sheath of sticks when in the air. A good suitcase would be handy and quicker for groundwork. It's more personnal preference than anything. Can't help as to which Miller, my stuff is RED, although I think the 250 Bobcat numbers look good.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:Structural Stuff16' 2 7/8" Sch 40 New .150 wall   30' Truss20'  3" x 3" x 11ga Tubing Anchor Plates  Truss Gussets20' 3" C PurlinSheet metal will be .26 I believe but should be screwed onThey are kits..We have a loader that we built a platform for.  I was thinking about a shop mig but was curious about the suitcase stuff.  Will a trail blazer run a shop mig?This is at our farm and most stuff we do has all been arc but we are now looking to get a gen and such so we can be mobile this will allow us to fabricate corners and stuff now, but the buildings are the justification for spending the money.I just want to end up with a nice gen and a mig welder that works as good as my neighbors but I have only used that in his shop never seen it out in the field.  J
Reply:Originally Posted by stumpfinderWill a trail blazer run a shop mig?
Reply:Get a trailblazer and suitcase wire feeder, you will be very happy.  Another Lincoln guy.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Lincoln man, I think you took a wrong first step :P (first post)My Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3   4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:stump, i got the tb302 and it's alot smoother than the old bobcat 250 i had. and alot quieter.. it runs my MM251 all day long and my thermadyne1000 plasma. never tried at the same time as both are 240. it will run one of the 12vs migs or the 8vs. i am looking to upgrade to the 12vs myself for the portability in the field. i tested one at my dealers and it worked smooth even after the drop test. another option is a spoolgun, but i personally wouldn't use one.to all the lincoln folks, every shop in my area uses blue, except for the CAT dealer. i guess that's why they charge $145hr and you never see them welding. they only use the red stuff for grinders and lights."Retreat hell, were just fighting in the other direction"Miller Trailblazer 302, Extreme 12 VS, Dimension 400, Spectrum 375, HF 251D-1, Milermatic 251 w/ spoolgun  Hypertherm 1000Lincoln sp 1702000 F-450 to haul it
Reply:There's a bit of welding to be done. A trailblazer size machine is nice but to tell the truth a bobcat 225 or a ranger 10,000 will handle the job with capacity to spare.  They will run a suit case wire feeder or power a any 120 volt or small 240 mig. Actually the smaller single cylinder welders would handle it but the cost is only a little less than a bobcat for 1/2 the welder. On steel buildings the few welds are small and you're moving around alot. It just doesn't justify the cost of a wire feeder.
Reply:I do weld up buildings and run a TB302. It will handle it without breaking a sweat. Very nice set up for the work I do. I run two different feeders. I use a VS feeder, either an 8VS or a Super S-32P voltage sensing if I need to be over 75' away from the TB or a 12RC when I can be 75' or less from the machine.....or I'll use whichever has the wire I want and am too lazy to swap it out.   For most of it, I will use sticks..even the 14 and 16 gauge stuff. About the only time I use the feeders would be to set columns and if the column heads have big gaps to fill. The feeder will save time on high deposition stuff, but stick will be the fastest set up. Besides, after lugging a feeder around all day, that stinger and a handful of rods looks really light. BTW, just ignore the red rage. It seems to be their way or no way.
Reply:Originally Posted by DDA52BTW, just ignore the red rage. It seems to be their way or no way.
Reply:Red Rage ?? Blue Way, No Way ??  LMAOThe big 3 have millions of machines out there, mostly good, some bad. If you're going to be biased, let it be Country of Origin !!Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:THanks for all the valuable input.  I can see I am in the ball park, I finally have an understanding of the rc verse the vs... By the way, if you have a 100ft lead for stick and you want to run your suitcase do you take the stinger off and use the same cable or how does that actually hook up.. I know the RC has the little 12 pin whatever that is another cable you have to run back to remotely control but I won't need anything like that.
Reply:I A Hobart hefty or Lincoln LN-25 needs a cable to go to the + for welding power input.  They have a little wire with an aligator clip that hooks to your ground ( right to the clamp is best) to get the - voltage to run the motor in the wire feeder.  The polarity can be switched to run self shielding wire.In MY opinion this is NOT a voltage sensing wire feeder.  It just needs + and - for welding power and to operate the electronics inside.I have an LN9-GMA  that senses the welding voltage and if you have a bad ground, a welding problem or welder problem, It shuts off.  The wire feeder comunicates with the power supply via a smaller multi conductor cable to give better arc control.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I will take the high road on the red comments and answer the man's question instead of fueling the crap barrage that has started. Stumpfinder, I have my leads set up on quick connects and the stinger is on a 10' whip and a QC. I just take off the stinger and hook up the feeder which comes with a QC. Like David said, the VS have a clip to clamp onto the work. It will work better if it can be placed on the ground clamp, but for what you are wanting to do, that will not be possible for the most part. Down low on the ground, maybe...up top, no way. I just use a grinder to make a clean spot and clip it on there. It usually works just fine. I have been 200' away from my machine with zero problems.The RC's do have the 14 pin cable. Miller recommends that it not be over 75' long...can't remember why at the moment. I have a 75 footer and use it as long as it will reach the work. One really good advantage to the RC is the voltage can be adjusted at the feeder, whereas the VS has to be adjusted at the machine. I did some rough fit up on my shop on two column heads. The up beads required one voltage and the others needed another...and it was just outside of the range the VS could have given me by adjusting the wire speed. These things were 16' in the air and I was running solo. The RC kept me from having to climb up and down every time I needed to switch the voltage. Saved me a lot of time by allowing me to switch it at the feeder. Running both types of feeders can have advantages, but may not be practical for you. The RC's will run just as smooth as a shop MIG unit. The VS is close, but not quite. At distances, the VS is king, up close and with lots of adjustments, the RC works better. You just have to decide which will be better for your situation. To me, it sounds like the VS may do you better.
Reply:.26 sheet metal to be screwed on?  seems a little thick
Reply:More than likely meant 26 gauge, at least that is how I read it. Didn't really catch the decimal before.That would be tough on the scew gun.....and the operator.   26 ga is 0.0179" fwiw.
Reply:Thanks again guys and yes I meant 26 gauge ( =is 3775 about the best price for the 302?
Reply:Originally Posted by David RI A Hobart hefty or Lincoln LN-25 needs a cable to go to the + for welding power input.  They have a little wire with an aligator clip that hooks to your ground ( right to the clamp is best) to get the - voltage to run the motor in the wire feeder.  The polarity can be switched to run self shielding wire.In MY opinion this is NOT a voltage sensing wire feeder.  It just needs + and - for welding power and to operate the electronics inside.David
Reply:Originally Posted by stumpfinderThanks again guys and yes I meant 26 gauge ( =is 3775 about the best price for the 302?
Reply:True Blue.  Just my opinion.Depends on what process you like to use when welding.  I have used innershield and 7018 for steel buildings.  Both are fine.  Both are equally strong.  One is cheaper than the other, but harder and slower.Me?  I'd love to run some 1/16"-3/32" innershield on steel structures.  But the setup can cost you $2500 more in the end for new equipment.
Reply:2500? Not really. You can pick up a used feeder for way cheaper. That is how I started out, then upgraded to a new one. My new 12RC was around 1600 or so...add 50 bucks for a couple of sets of drive rolls. Had to make another gas hose...it was about 20-25 and then the cable was 175.  Dang cable was expensive. FWIW, I picked up my S-32P for 500 bucks. It was new old stock I found on Epay. Works like a brand new one...'cuz it is.
Reply:I agree with DDA52. I build a few buildings. Have a Suitcase 12vs and a couple older smaller ones, but as much as you move around, stick is almost the only way I go. Even on perlins. To me feeders are fine if you dont have a lot of movement. And they get heavy in the air. I have been happy with the 12vs though. Sounds like your material list are close to mine, I seem to get mine done faster with stick than wire. Just my .02If it is outside the workshop I prefer stick, also if you are in the open air you don't want gas shield as the breeze can give you a bad case of porosity.
Reply:Originally Posted by DDA522500? Not really. You can pick up a used feeder for way cheaper. That is how I started out, then upgraded to a new one. My new 12RC was around 1600 or so...add 50 bucks for a couple of sets of drive rolls. Had to make another gas hose...it was about 20-25 and then the cable was 175.  Dang cable was expensive. FWIW, I picked up my S-32P for 500 bucks. It was new old stock I found on Epay. Works like a brand new one...'cuz it is.
Reply:Where do you get the 1000 extra? I started out running it on a Bobcat....an 18 year old Bobcat at that. Worked like a champ.
Reply:Hmm, let's see.  Well, look at the average price for a welder/generator that doesn't run wirefeeders.  Look at the average price for ones that do run them.There you go.
Reply:Ok, not wanting to start an arguement, but.... there seems to be a lack of communication. What machine are you saying will or won't?  Bobcats/Rangers/Champions are entry level engine drives and probably the lowest one one should consider for metal building work. So, since the entry level machines WILL run the feeders in CC and CV modes (CC only on the Champ), what machines are you talking about?
Reply:Miller Bluestars run up to 185 amps and that is plenty of power to build steel buildings.  No wirefeeder capability.  $2,037Miller Bobcat - $3737-$8,537Miller Trailblazer - $4437-$12,394You get the idea.  K?Last edited by WelderBoy; 08-04-2007 at 01:28 AM.
Reply:Ok, the attitude is gonna get you nowhere fast.  You ain't talking to a new rookie here. You are talking to someone who has been doing this longer than you have been alive ,if your profile is correct,...and running a shop his own shop just as long. So park the attitude and listen up 'boy.First...You are dead wrong about the Bluestar 185 not having wire capability. If you get the right CC capable feeder, it WILL work. Miller made the 3045FC for just that size machine. It was discontinued, but I still find new ones out there all the time. IIRC, the LN-25's will run on the lower OCV of the 185's as well. I know the Miller 12 VS will not, but I do believe I did hear someone was using the Xtreme 12VS with it. It only needs 14 vdc to operate. So, there are feeders that will operate on the 185's voltage. The 145 is too small to be viable for more than a one or two time only deal on mtl bldgs. I have run one and will attest to the fact it can't keep up. We were running into the duty cycle every single day. Do that enough and you will have a paperweight. While the 185 barely has the numbers on paper, it still lacks the longevity and durability to stand up to daily abuse like that. Like I said in the previous post, you need a Bobcat or Champion or Ranger to do entry level mobile work. BUT, the 145/185 will still support a feeder. All you have to do is buy a MM140 or 180 or even a Passport and just plug it in. Where there is a will, there is a way. So, another feeder option...even a cheaper one than the suitcase style feeder.Then there is always the option of buying USED equipment. As to the pricing you got, were those numbers MSRP's? Right now on B&R Welder site(  http://www.brwelder.com/IndexTemplat...le=monthly.htm ) Blue Star140 $1619   BS185 $2175   Bobcat 225 $2965    BC 250 $3185  Hobart Champion 10,000 $2750  Trailblazer 302 $3765 Look man, I'm not trying to pick on you....just drop the attitude and get your facts straight. It is not hard to do.Last edited by DDA52; 08-04-2007 at 05:09 PM.
Reply:I find all this interesting.  I must not be old enough to have known about the VS thing.  My Ln25 dos have a CC switch. Never had much luck with it, but I always had a CV engine drive.  As far as long distance, I had the LN-25 working on a cell tower 140 feet up in the bucket with me.  Ground at the base of the tower, feeder with me.  Move the - wire for the feeder as I went.  Worked great. We got a lot of welding done in a little time.  It took a week and 60 lbs of .045 wire to do the job.  I used Co2 cranked up to 35 or so CFH.  When it got windy, I worked on the other side of the tower or used 7018. (can you say s l o w?)  I also tried some NR-233.  That stuff is hard to run UP.  So for the voltage sensing thing, Its just different for me.  Now I understand why its called that, not like the LN9-GMA.And  the red rage?  Just bustin.  To each his own.  They are all good machines. My dad had a 4 cyl crank start Wisconsin driven Lincoln. My first welder I purchased was red.  I had nothing but good luck so I stuck with them now I have a bunch of em.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Red, blue, red, blue, red, blue, red, blue.....YELLOW!
Reply:Well, then there is always maroon, purple...whatever color Thermal is.   I almost tried out a Thermal unit a while back. Can't remember why I didn't now. Esab has a couple of units I'd like a go at as well. I could always paint them blue to match everything else.
Reply:Paint an Esab blue? That would be the best working blue machine that I've seen!Just kidding miller fans. I used to have an EconoTIG and had nothing but problems with it. I now have a Lincoln Precision TIG 185 in its place and an Esab MultiMaster 260 for MIG & spoolgun use. Love em both.
Reply:If you want a blue Thermal machine, just get a Cigweld unit. Same blue, or really close to it, just with purple guts.
Reply:Originally Posted by DDA52Ok, the attitude is gonna get you nowhere fast.  You ain't talking to a new rookie here. You are talking to someone who has been doing this longer than you have been alive ,if your profile is correct,...and running a shop his own shop just as long. So park the attitude and listen up 'boy.First...You are dead wrong about the Bluestar 185 not having wire capability. If you get the right CC capable feeder, it WILL work. Miller made the 3045FC for just that size machine. It was discontinued, but I still find new ones out there all the time. IIRC, the LN-25's will run on the lower OCV of the 185's as well. I know the Miller 12 VS will not, but I do believe I did hear someone was using the Xtreme 12VS with it. It only needs 14 vdc to operate. So, there are feeders that will operate on the 185's voltage. The 145 is too small to be viable for more than a one or two time only deal on mtl bldgs. I have run one and will attest to the fact it can't keep up.As to the pricing you got, were those numbers MSRP's?Look man, I'm not trying to pick on you....just drop the attitude and get your facts straight. It is not hard to do.
Reply:Ok, maybe you didn't intend to give me lip, but that is exactly how you are coming across. Look at how you signed off on posts 29 and 31...."There you go...And get the idea. K? ...say that in person to most ironworkers and you will not see what hit you. THAT is where I am getting the "attitude" from. That is not the form of respectful, polite, business style conversation. So, if you don't mean it that way, don't say it that way. You will find that you will get what you give. That goes for anything, here, there and inbetween.You need to be sure of your facts before you post them or someone will catch it. You posted MSRP for pricing...no one does that. Be accurate. You didn't know about the feeders, but did not hesitate to try to prove me wrong. So, when confronted about wrong info, you got your back up and wonder why you are being talked down to? You may have a lot of experience, but in doing what you did, you showed a great lack of experience, both with machines and people. I just questioned you on why you said something. It didn't make sense at all. You got defensive and really still are. You were wrong. Correct the error and move on. I am not bashing you, just trying to correct you. If I was bashing you, you would know it in no uncertain terms. Now as to running a feeder off of a BS185, don't. The suitcases were not made for that setup. Get a MM140 or 180 if it will run it. That will save you a bundle right there.  With that small machine, you won't need more capacity than the 180 will give you, so why pay twice the money. FWIW, Hobart 140's or 180's are much better priced and would be reliable for that kind of combination.If you really want the best advice on starting up a mobile op, don't skimp on eqiupment. Get something with longevity and enough power to grow into. If you plan ahead, you won't end up having to upgrade later at a much higher cost. A single cylinder engine is not really in that category if you plan on going all out one day. Yes, it will do it. BUT, it won't do it as long. I recently retired a Bobcat after 10 years of service. You will not get anywhere near that life from the Blue Star. The old ones would do it, but not the new ones. They skimped too much and ruined the BS line, IMO. The old ones were 200 amp 14hp DC or AC/DC units with a good duty cycle for stick welding. But, all things must change.Buying used isn't a bad thing either. I started out with a used Blue Star 2E. It made me tons of money before it was upgraded to the Bobcat. I paid 500 bucks for it. My return on investment was in the order of 2-3000%. Start out with the right stuff. Don't settle on anything because of price. If you need the good stuff, get it. It will pay off in the long run. Skimp and you will end up paying more later. When you base your income on equipment, you want the right stuff to support you. Rely on the wrong unit because it was cheaper and just enough to do what you want then and there, and later when conditions or work changes, you will end up spending all the money again. There is a lot to be said for growing room. Businesses that do not grow, fail. Businesses that do not evolve or change with the market, fail.You may not care how old or how long, but irregardless, we have been doing it longer and will continue to be more experienced than you are no matter how long you are doing this stuff. That is just the way of things. You can learn a thing or two from those that are long in the tooth. No doubt I can learn from you. I do not know it all either. We just need to communicate better so all can benefit.
Reply:Alright DDA52, I am not an *******.  Sorry.  I don't want people around here to get that impression of me.  I am a real easy going guy and I try to help when I can but I don't always know everything but I research what I don't know and the facts I find are not always going to be accurate.That ironworker comment wasn't called for btw.
Reply:The ironworker comment wasn't meant to be anything other than an example of what not to do. Pop off to the wrong person and you will need dental work.  Ironworkers do not suffer disrespect lightly....intended or not. I am not saying you are in danger from me or anyone, just be careful as to what and HOW you say things. Having been around iron heads a good deal of my life, I can attest to some volatility in quite a few....don't ask me how I know.  Last I checked, there are quite a few here, too. I'm just saying. I appreciate you meeting me in the high ground. I was trying to remain calm and understand what you were trying to say. There are definite communication differences between generations. We just need to get around those differences, understand what we are trying to get across to each other and move forward.
Reply:Good job guys. It is hard to communicate feelings with the keyboard. Unless, of course, your whacking someone in the face with it. Nice job staying cool and calm, Don. I hate it when blood shoots out of your eyes.( even if red is my favorite color)
Reply:btw, I did have an encounter with an old timer welder/carpenter/ironworker.  But he made a comment I didn't like about "little girls" and I called him on it and he decided to pop me a couple times in the face when I called him a pedophile.  He's got 3 daughters and he's making comments about young girls, not appropriate.  But he ended up losing his front teeth in the end.  Point of story, I know what you are talking about.  I don't like to fight, but if it comes down to it...
Reply:Originally Posted by TEKGood job guys. It is hard to communicate feelings with the keyboard. Unless, of course, your whacking someone in the face with it. Nice job staying cool and calm, Don. I hate it when blood shoots out of your eyes.( even if red is my favorite color)
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderBoyAlright DDA52, I am not an *******.  Sorry.  I don't want people around here to get that impression of me.  I am a real easy going guy and I try to help when I can but I don't always know everything but I research what I don't know and the facts I find are not always going to be accurate.That ironworker comment wasn't called for btw.
Reply:Originally Posted by lars66How can they be facts if there not accurate??  You will be a lot better off listening to some one who has been there & done it ( dda52-Don ) then reading facts that aren't accurate or confusing.