TIG/ARC Recommendation

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I currently have a Lincoln 180 mig that I use for basic projects.  I would like to learn how to use a TIG for some smaller sheet metal projects, and at the same time have a stick welder for other projects that are a max of 3/8 in thickness..  I don't want to break the bank, but any recommendations on an affordable tig and/or stick welder for around the house projects and some car restoration?Thanks!
Reply:Look into a Miller econotig. It will do your stick, tig, has AC and runs off single phase power. They list for a little over a thousand dollars. Another alternative is a Miller synchrowave which has a higher duty cycle,  better arc and is also single phase, but you're looking at more money.Arguing with a Welding Engineer is like wrestling with a pig... after a while you realize the pig likes it
Reply:I'd recommend the Miller EconoTIG as well. I have one and it has done everything in my shop. I'll be buying a 300amp machine soon, so I can do 1/2 SS, so mine is for sale - $1250 shipped w/ cart and consumables.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:isn't the the econotig the same or nearly identical to the hobart tigmate?I picked one up brand new from sears.com for $850 shipped last year the day after Christmas.  Another option for you.Ryan
Reply:Thanks for the information!  I have read a lot of good reviews about the Econotig..  Soon as I get some cash saved up, I think that is the direction I will take..
Reply:Sears.com does have them but don't get the wrong idea - they are $1399.00 plus shipping, plus tax. If you have a Sears in your State, which is very likely, add on the good 'ol State tax. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:EconoTig is a good solution.  But i've heard stories on this forum of them being cheaply built.  I don't know this firsthand though.I will give my recommendation, the same I always give.  ThermalArc 190GTS P-Wee.  190 amps, about $1900 MSRP if I remember correctly, but can be had cheaper from a retailer as MSRP is never the price you pay if you shop wisely and can be had for as little as $500 used.  Very solid machine and has functions like Slope, Pulse, Post flow, high frequency, lift-start and can be run off 120v/220v.  Also is about 1'x10"x6".Let us know what you end up getting and how you like it.  You can never have enough reviews on welding equipment!
Reply:Cheaply built? I don't think Miller Electric would put their name on a cheaply built welder. It's missing some of the features of the synchrowaves, and is limited to 160amps, but it's still a Miller.  I don't have any experience with the ThermaArc 190, but I'm sure it's a nice machine. I'd still be willing to be that the Econotig would last twice as long if not longer. The only down side is thatr it weighs 165lbs.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:Well, like I said, I only heard that about EconoTigs.  Plus, look at the construction a ThunderBolt and an XMT.  See any differences in quality?  There's a reason why it's priced so low.I love Miller, I am not bashing them.  I use their products daily.But from all the stories i've heard about EconoTigs and from what I have seen in person with their overall appearance and such I would bet my boots that my ThermalArc would last longer.  It is the most solid machine I have used, never had any issues with it.  In fact, they built it with very high standards.  As an example, it was built so that if it was accidently hooked up to 480v it would intentionally start smoking from some smoke generating device to signal something is wrong and would prevent damage because the electrical components are all beefed up.Also, the Econotig only goes down to 30 amps.  The ThermalArc goes down to < 1 amp.  EconoTig up to 160amps, ThermalArc up to 190amps.  Duty Cycle on the TA is 20% at 190 amps.  EconoTig is 20% at 160 amps.  EconoTig does AC and DC, ThermalArc only DC.Price almost the same.  The ThermalArc is more comparable to a Dynasty as far as features go.  A few less features than the Dynasty 200, but half the price too.Plus, it weighs ~10lbs...Last edited by WelderBoy; 08-13-2007 at 11:49 PM.
Reply:You know what they say about second hand information. WelderBoy, have YOU ever used an EconoTig ? I have no personal experience with them myself but you sure seem to be an expert on them. I have used ThermalArc multi-proccess machines and hope I'm never in a position to have to again. I'm sure some of their stuff is good but they seem to have a real problem with circuit boards in a less than ideal environment. Just food for thought.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:I made it a very obvious point that the information was from reviews and posts of people having problems with them that I have found on this forum and others.  I have seen them and used them, but not enough to give a solid review.I've never used any ThermalArc welders other than my 190GTS P-Wee, so I don't know about the quality of their other welders, but I do know about this specific model from my own experience and several other people that I know who own the same machine.
Reply:I've never read of a bad experience with an EconoTIG on this forum? You guys are both wrong, the  EconoTIG goes up to 165A A/C (where it counts, IMO) for both GTAW and SMAW, then 160A DC for GTAW.  Also, it is 140lbs., good heavy duty machine that you can use day in and day out and it won't quit. I've used mine almost every day for 2 years, no problems. I just can't weld 1/2" SS and aluminum with it...single pass. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:I didn't mean to start a war I'm not knocking ThermalArc by any means, they make great stuff. I've got a Thermal Dynamics plasma, and it's definately top-notch. I just wanted to verify that Econotigs are great machines, super tough and built to high standards. I've never seen a thread here where anyone was having any problems with one, that I can think of.I am sure the Econotig I have will outlive me, and I'm 30. Maybe I'm just old fashioned and missing something, but I just have a hard time imagining a 10lb welder lasting 30-40 years or more. I've been wrong before though. edit: Is it only 140lbs? I must be thinking of the original shipping weight, and not the weight of the machine itself. You're right, Micro. It is 165AC amps.Last edited by Joe H; 08-14-2007 at 12:43 AM.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:I am not trying to knock Miller, or the EconoTig.  I was just trying to help the original poster out by giving information I have come across or learned on my own so he could make a better decision.Sorry to bring the thread down.
Reply:The last real job I had had an Econotig in the plant, used on a production job 16hrs a day 5 days a week. The maint. head told me they had bought it 14 years ago. He said they had replaced the pedal once, and bought a torch or two. Other than that it had never missed a lick. The entire time I worked there (about 2 years) the vents were completely clogged with dustbunnies. They weren't much for preventive maintenance. Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderBoyWell, like I said, I only heard that about EconoTigs.  Plus, look at the construction a ThunderBolt and an XMT.  See any differences in quality?  There's a reason why it's priced so low.I love Miller, I am not bashing them.  I use their products daily.But from all the stories i've heard about EconoTigs and from what I have seen in person with their overall appearance and such I would bet my boots that my ThermalArc would last longer.  It is the most solid machine I have used, never had any issues with it.  In fact, they built it with very high standards.  As an example, it was built so that if it was accidently hooked up to 480v it would intentionally start smoking from some smoke generating device to signal something is wrong and would prevent damage because the electrical components are all beefed up.Also, the Econotig only goes down to 30 amps.  The ThermalArc goes down to < 1 amp.  EconoTig up to 160amps, ThermalArc up to 190amps.  Duty Cycle on the TA is 20% at 190 amps.  EconoTig is 20% at 160 amps.  EconoTig does AC and DC, ThermalArc only DC.Price almost the same.  The ThermalArc is more comparable to a Dynasty as far as features go.  A few less features than the Dynasty 200, but half the price too.Plus, it weighs ~10lbs...
Reply:Originally Posted by Old BI have been lurking here for a few days, so much a novice that I was not going to post for some time. But your comment on the smoke generating device when hooked to 480 by mistake made my day.
Reply:Somebody that knew somebody heard a Rep (salesman) tell this little tale. I don't know if this story is true, but I'm agreeing with Old B, it sure reeks of BS.Did you notice after that individual posted that, it was like his post didn't exist. No one questioned him, no one made any comment on his post or anything. It was like he didn't exsist. Do you wonder why that was ?...I do...lolIf that companies machine had that type of feature it would be in the specs and they would have been flaunting it as idiot proof.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:olddad, I know where you are coming from.  And I would love to see some proof of this, but I was just stating what I had read.  It may be true, or it may be BS.  I don't know.
Reply:I thought everybody knew that ALL welders run on smoke. The electrical engineers and welding engineers get togther and design the smoke. The welding engineer decides how much smoke a welder needs to run and how fast the smoke should be let out. The electrical engineer decides how to get the smoke into and out of the machine. When the end user lets all the smoke out of the machine he takes it to a service center where they pump all the smoke back in. When the smoke bags no longer hold any smoke, it's time to get a new machine...LOLLast edited by reddoggoose; 08-14-2007 at 09:01 AM.Arguing with a Welding Engineer is like wrestling with a pig... after a while you realize the pig likes it
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderBoy...I would bet my boots that my ThermalArc would last longer.  It is the most solid machine I have used, never had any issues with it.  In fact, they built it with very high standards.  As an example, it was built so that if it was accidently hooked up to 480v it would intentionally start smoking from some smoke generating device to signal something is wrong and would prevent damage because the electrical components are all beefed up.
Reply:Welder boy,It could be, I have just never seen a protection device like that. After a long day it just struck me as funny. Old B
Reply:Originally Posted by 69 chevyThis thread is already hijacked so I'll chime in.  Instead of wiring in a buzzer, klaxon, bell, whistle, siren, red light, strobe, fuse or some other indicator of overvoltage, the designers wired in a smoke bomb???
Reply:Okay, last post about this, then let's get back on topic. I'm surprised none of our resident electrical guru's chimed in regarding this. Either way, it would be very difficult to plug in a TD anything, wired for 240V, into a 440V plug, receptacle...what have you. They are distinctly different and thanks to the National Electric code for providing a systematic organization and standardization for plugs, receptacles, etc. The 240V and 440V are DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT. There is NO way, NO how, even smacking a plug into a receptacle with your BFH wouldn't allow it to receive one or the other. The 240V stuff has teeth or slots, while the 440V stuff has circular holes. See examples below: EXAMPLES: 240V stuff, scroll down - http://www.evenheat-kiln.com/technic...ept/recept.htm440V stuff - http://www.onestopbuy.com/432C3WL-2676.asp?pt=froogleNow...back on topic please. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:One quick side note to MicroZones voltage comment. The over voltage condition is not so much due to someone plugging into the wrong voltage outlet, but  being jumpered incorrectly. On the back of many welding machines are jumper tabs that must be set to correspond to the correct primary voltage. If the machine is jumpered for 230V but is plugged into a 460V plug, the machine will be damaged. Millers line of autoline machines don't have these because they sense the primary voltage and link automatically. I don't know if Thermal Arcs tig machine have the jumper links.Arguing with a Welding Engineer is like wrestling with a pig... after a while you realize the pig likes itOriginally Posted by MicroZoneOkay, last post about this, then let's get back on topic. I'm surprised none of our resident electrical guru's chimed in regarding this. Either way, it would be very difficult to plug in a TD anything, wired for 240V, into a 440V plug, receptacle...what have you. They are distinctly different and thanks to the National Electric code for providing a systematic organization and standardization for plugs, receptacles, etc. The 240V and 440V are DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT. There is NO way, NO how, even smacking a plug into a receptacle with your BFH wouldn't allow it to receive one or the other. The 240V stuff has teeth or slots, while the 440V stuff has circular holes. See examples below:
Reply:My understanding is that somebody accidently put a 480v plug on it and it was then plugged into a 480v outlet.  Once again, not sure how true the story was.
Reply:Come on you guys, if that's the scenario and someone is stupid enough to NOT look at the guidelines for wiring the welder or wiring their shop, house, etc., then may Murphy's law hit them full force.  John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:No bad review on the EconoTIG? Well, here it is: I'll never buy a blue machine ever again after owning a POS EconoTIG. Anything with "econo" in its name should say it all. I guess I shouldn't be down on Miller since this wasn't really a heavy duty type machine.Blown power supply, then blown amp control board for the pedal, then the work lead melts when doing aluminum. Other than that, it did weld rather nicely for a small unit. I replaced it with a Lincoln PrecisionTIG 185 and love it!
Reply:Wow, easy there TB. A blown power supply and control board could easily be due to electrical issues within a shop or the power supply to the shop. Brown out conditions can kill ANY power supply, whether is be a PC, a Welder or another type of electrical machinary. SO, without knowing the working conditions, the shop the machine was in, previous history of the welder and the weldor using it, etc., I would say that pretty much negates your review. Provide those and maybe we can learn from each other. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:No problem here with power. I have a 250A single phase service and a 150A 3-phase service here. Each with its own transformers that don't feed anyone else. I get clean 126/252V power even under heavy load. The panel's internals are tightned yearly. The 240 outlets are all #6AWG. My Lincoln and ESABs are just fine. In fact, my jipper $200 Harbor Freight "beater" used for 1/8" aluminum MIG is also fine. My electronics repair part of the business relies upon clean power for bench repairs of two-way radio and other critical devices and I make sure that my incoming serivce is always at 100% My under/over voltage alarm has never once activate in 5 years at this location (low is 115 and high is 132). BTW, the only time my PC UPSs activate is when the power goes out. I've seen many shops that have the computer UPSs activate simply from striking an arc or having the compressor turn on.The unit was simply an Econo-POS. I know that some of you die hard blue fans absolutely refuse that your sweetheart company could NEVER build a bad unit, but they did. They all do it at one point. The ET was just bad from day one. This isn't saying Miller is bad. I'd consider another one one day (not really soon) if I have the need for another machine.I bought the unit new and I used it. The only other person that used it occasionally was a VERY experienced fabricator/weldor that helps out around here once in a while. He now owns the unit and still never repaired it. He bought a new Miller TIG (don't know the model...it's about 200A) and loves it.So I guess that validates my PERSONAL review. Anything that says "econo" is evil. If you were a cop, would you buy and Econobulletproof vest?" If you were a rigger, would you buy an econoharness when 72 floors up? If you needed a roof for you house, would you let Econo-Roofing install it?
Reply:turboblown, I agree with what you are saying about how some people are die hard fans and won't accept that Miller built a bad product.  I have never owned an econotig, and only based my comments on reviews by guys like you.However, I have used the Miller ALT series welders and that is a perfect example of a badly built welder.  The electrical components inside of it were constantly having issues.  They weld very nice, and I have had no problems with performance other than the fact that they always are breaking down and need repairs.  We have several dozen Miller ALT 350s and XMT 304/350s.  The XMT's rarely if ever need servicing.  The ALTs are always breaking down.  From a welder's standpoint they are almost identicle.  I don't care if I hook up to an ALT or an XMT.  They look almost identicle and weld the same.  But internally the ALTs are just poorly designed.Once again, still a die hard Miller fan.  But willing to admit when the Big Blue makes a Big Booboo.
Reply:I have an ECONO-TIG, so I guess YES, YES and YES...as long as the product suited the price, not the quality.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com