needing a slip roller

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I'm working on a project that will require me to put a long straight channel or groove in some thin copper sheet, and i'm considering making a slip roller for this.. My sheets will be around 6-8 inches wide and the groove will need to be about .4 inches deep and 1/2 inch wide.. the idea is to give a 1/2" copper tube wings.. then solder the sheet to the tubing.. ideas? suggestions?I have a lathe, a 3 axis cnc milling machine and time, what i dont have is money...i was thinking of turning the dies on the lathe and then making the sides of the roller on the cnc outta alum.  put bearings on the ends of the dies, and gear them together somehow so that they are both driven, put a wheel or a handle on it and get after it.. what i'm not sure of is how close to get the dies to each other, and how radical of a profile i can get in a single pass... i figure if i can get it started, then rolling out the rest of the length will be the easy part, just getting it started with an agressive profile is what i'm worried about...one other thought was to just make a V groove in the copper sheet so that the tubing could sit in it and then be soldered.. ofcourse the more contact area between the sheet and the tubing the better... Attached Images
Reply:A slip roll can't do that, not even close.The only way I can think of to do that is a big press and a die specially made for that job.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:hmm thats dissapointing, i thought for sure that if i made a set of dies and fed the material between them that it would shape a channel into the copper...
Reply:OK, I think you are talking about a roll former, not a slip roller. Yeah, that could be done in a roll former. I didn't think about that, mainly because it would be a very big project to build one.... I doubt you could do it with one set of dies, it would probably take 3 or 4 sets of dies, gradually shaping the metal a little more with each set.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:hmm ok, i didnt know the proper name, please forgive me on that one.. i drew up what i was thinking that the dies would look like, and i was wondering if i were to make the distance between the dies adjustable, if i could run the material through, then narrow the gap between them, run it through again, and so forth... Attached Images
Reply:Your picture didn't work, but I think I get the idea.It very well may work, I can't say for sure. The only roll formers I've ever seen were 50' long, and had die sets every 2' or so. It may be possible to do it like you are thinking. I really don't see why not, actually.I'm very interested to see how this works out for you. This is a new one!I do think it would be easier to make a half-*** die from some pipe and plate. Then press it with a bottle jack under the truck if a press isn't available.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:I am spoiled, the shop I worked in could do that.We had a 100ton press break as well as slip rolls that were good for 8 feet of 1/4" plate. Good thing I am still friends with the owner.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:You have a mill and lathe, how about this. Mill a 1/2" diameter groove .4" deep in a piece of 1" plate. In another plate mill a groove .6" deep, same diameter. drill several holes through the center of the .6"deep groove, clean through the plate. Plug weld in the 1/2" round through the drilled holes, or drill and tap the 1/2" round. That's a pretty easy die to make, you would have to adjust those dimensions to account for material thickness, of course. Buy or build a press, do a search here for plenty of ideas. This way you really can't lose. A press is great to have around the shop for lots of jobs.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:There's the picture! Yeah, that's a roll former die. It would work, but you'd need something to keep the part straight or it will come out bent.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:yea i thought about the die thing, and i have a small press, manual bottle jack type that is big enough, but i dont have any 1" plate, nor is my mill large enough to make a die thats 24" long...what i could do tho, is to make a small set of dies, say 6" square, with a gradual increase in the grove making part, then put the die set in the press and insert the sheet, press, release, push the sheet in a little further, press, and so forth.. something like what i've seen done with a power hammer, which i dont have... i wonder if a planishing hammer type setup with the correct tapered dies would work, i could make a planishing hammer stand, and use my air chissel, make a small set of dies for that... also, when you say that the roler dies would cause the sheet to come out bent, how so?  the main objective is to get the sheet into contact with the pipe as much as possible, i could always bend the wings a bit to get them a little flatter once its all soldered together..   I'm picturing that the wings will come out wavy, thats really not that big of a problem, i would like them to be straight, but its really cosmetic, and this is all about function. Attached Images
Reply:Is it absolutely necessary that the groove is down the center of the sheet?I assume this is for a heat exchanger for some solar application (my guess.)It would be far easier to groove an edge (or both edges) then solder the next sheet to the edge of the tube and other sheet.If you groove down the center the metal must be stretched into place causing distortion of the sheet, if its along one edge (or both edges) the distortion is only at the jjoint, not the flat part.Consider just moving the solder joints to the tubing locations.You could probably beat an edge to shape with a ball peen hammer and a round 1/2" rod about 2" long with a handle glued to it, into a groove between two boards.
Reply:You are talking about a bead roller.Like one of these Roper Whitney'shttp://roperwhitney.com/beading/1-67.cfmI have a 622, and it will put a groove like that in the middle of a 14" wide sheet, all day long.You can buy quite a few rolls for it, or buy blanks and make your own.LoBuck also sells one-http://www.lowbucktools.com/beadroller.htmlDi-Acro actually did used to make a slip roll- about a 12" wide one, as I recall, that had interchangeable rolls, and would do stuff like this- but they are rare as hens teeth these days, and quite pricy when you do find em.Most slip rolls, however, have fixed rolls, and are made to curve sheet metal, and maybe have a few wire grooves as well, to make bucket handles and the like. A slip roller is not the tool for this job.
Reply:knotbored, your right on the money, its for a flat plate solar water heater i want to make, and since money is tight, i thought i could fab it myself.  i guess you could do the edge but if you have a mechanical connection between the sheets, there will be extra stresses on the tubes due to thermal expansion of the materials.let me make sure im understanding what your describing at the end of your last post, i'm picturing screwing 2 boards down to the workbench with the space between them the size of the tube plus 2 thicknesses of the sheet, drive the tube down between the 2 boards, and then hammering the wings(that would now be vertical and parallel making an exagerated verticle "U") hammer the wings back down horozontal across the tops of the boards?its sounding more and more like forming this is gonna be a real challenge, and maby i should just think about getting a sheet break, and making a square bottom channel for the tube to sit in, and then solder from there... i really prefer to have the tube and wing sections sepperated, for stresses, and for easy of assembly when i put the tubes all together..if im not understanding either the bending tenique your describing, or the edge system that you suggested, can you sketch something up?  pictures tell me lots, but i was never very good at reading and picturing things in my head.looking at bead rollers, i looked at the lowbucktools one, kinda pricey, so i looked around and summitracing has one for close to 100, and harborfreight has a couple from 150-200...
Reply:would something like a gruvlok work?
Reply:Originally Posted by project5kknotbored, your right on the money, its for a flat plate solar water heater i want to make, and since money is tight, i thought i could fab it myself.  i guess you could do the edge but if you have a mechanical connection between the sheets, there will be extra stresses on the tubes due to thermal expansion of the materials.let me make sure im understanding what your describing at the end of your last post, i'm picturing screwing 2 boards down to the workbench with the space between them the size of the tube plus 2 thicknesses of the sheet, drive the tube down between the 2 boards, and then hammering the wings(that would now be vertical and parallel making an exagerated verticle "U") hammer the wings back down horozontal across the tops of the boards?...
Reply:well, this is a product of me looking at how the big bous do it, combined with my own math and research, i've gotten good at making heat exchangers, so now i need something to gather the heat... looking at what some other people have done and whatnot, this is what i have come up with....the thickness is around 30-50thou, i'd have to go out to the shop to make sure.. and the plan is to paint them with flat black high temp paint once assembeled...  it sounds like you might have some expeirence with what i'm playing with, and since the whole RE thing is a little off topic here, you can feel free to email me if you like... mcgyver "at" satx.rr.com
Reply:Wow, a bead roller. I'd never used one until, coincidentally, today!I go to work this morning and get hit with a whacked out project. We end up digging a bead roller out of the back to roll some grooves not unlike what you need in .063" aluminum.Neeto... Piece of cake too,Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:i was wondering how you did it, did you draw out the lines you wanted to do, and then just follow them?  how hard was it to stay on your lines?cause if i can get one for around 100, and it will do what i wanna do, then i just might buy one, happy christmas to me kinda thing
Reply:It has an adjustable guide on one side. You just push the part in and keep it against the guide. The one at work has about 30 different dies, all differarnt shapes and sizes. Pretty cool stuff, and a tool I had never known before.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:i saw one used on trucks back when stacy david was still on the show, he was making a floorboard for the sgt rock truck... very nice.. i'm asking for one for christmas, i'm just looking around now for which one to get... and which dies will do the things that i'm most likely to want to do...
Reply:i just took a measurement of the copper i'm planning on using and its .015" thick... so it should be relatively easy to work.
Reply:'5K...what gage copper are you using? You're right on track with the pic of the grooved rollers. We had a similar job recently where we had to run a similar bead on some 10 ga. (black) collars. We have a power rotary machine that is tensioned simply with a hand crank.  We got a guy over from the machine shop and he made us up a set of dies which we had the next day. Any hand rotary machine would do the job you need.
Reply:Originally Posted by project5kI'm working on a project that will require me to put a long straight channel or groove in some thin copper sheet, and i'm considering making a slip roller for this.. My sheets will be around 6-8 inches wide and the groove will need to be about .4 inches deep and 1/2 inch wide.. the idea is to give a 1/2" copper tube wings.. then solder the sheet to the tubing.. ideas? suggestions?I have a lathe, a 3 axis cnc milling machine and time, what i dont have is money...i was thinking of turning the dies on the lathe and then making the sides of the roller on the cnc outta alum.  put bearings on the ends of the dies, and gear them together somehow so that they are both driven, put a wheel or a handle on it and get after it.. what i'm not sure of is how close to get the dies to each other, and how radical of a profile i can get in a single pass... i figure if i can get it started, then rolling out the rest of the length will be the easy part, just getting it started with an agressive profile is what i'm worried about...one other thought was to just make a V groove in the copper sheet so that the tubing could sit in it and then be soldered.. ofcourse the more contact area between the sheet and the tubing the better...
Reply:yea, thats a bit pricy for something that i'm not going to use every day.. i was looking at something like the following...http://www.tptools.com/p/2584,341_TP...oller-Kit.htmlhttp://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=skuhttp://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=93364this last one from harbor freight is currently the one that i'm leaning towards..  i cant see myself needing to make any beads any deeper than 11 inches or so, so this should do that, and it has all the mandrels.. my big question is when it sais 1/2" bead mandrel, i'm guessing that is the width, but how deep from the top surface is the bead?
Reply:Project5k- that Harborfreight page has a click to the product manual for that roller.  Its 9meg and I am on dialup so I didn't download it-but perhaps you can and see how well that tool will work.I think you will find that copper easier to work with then you are anticipating.  Is it perhaps 16# flashing material? That stuff id soft as a babys bottom and can be pressed to complicated shapes with your fingers.Another thought-solder the tubing only a few places and put that heat transfering goo along the tube- same stuff used to transfer heat between computer chips and heat sinks-the texture of vasalene.yea the white heat sink compound.. i really dont see a downside to soldering the full length tho.. i mean other than it taking a little longer.. i did dl the manual, i have a catalog of thier books for all sorts of tools that i have and would like to get.. I know its pretty soft stuff, i've got a 1" square here and i can bend it pretty easy, but i would like for the channel that the pipe goes in to be as accurate as possible, the better the fit, the easier to solder, and the better the heat transfer will be.i really like the harbor freight one cause it also comes with a set of cutting dies as well as the beading dies.. so i could cut my strips and then roll the bead in them all with one tool... my thinking is to take the handle off of it, mount a good stout stepper motor, and have it be powered, the great thing about the stepper is that i already have stepper drivers that i have built, so i can control both the speed, strength, and direction... then just make a little foot pedal and one man can work it easy.Last edited by project5k; 12-15-2007 at 10:01 AM.
Reply:Keep that thinking up and you will be in the solar panel manufacturing business soon (maybe a good business to be in soon.)A couple other thoughts-1. Make sure the finish is dull-not polished so the heat is absorbed not reflected.2. The surface doesn't need to be perfectly flat-perhaps it would be better to be corrogated or dimpled to reduce reflection.3. Any finish must be flexible so it doesn't chip away as the panel cools and heats up, but most flexible coatings are also insulators-hmmm
Reply:Originally Posted by project5kyea, thats a bit pricy for something that i'm not going to use every day.. i was looking at something like the following...http://www.tptools.com/p/2584,341_TP...oller-Kit.htmlhttp://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=skuhttp://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=93364this last one from harbor freight is currently the one that i'm leaning towards..  i cant see myself needing to make any beads any deeper than 11 inches or so, so this should do that, and it has all the mandrels.. my big question is when it sais 1/2" bead mandrel, i'm guessing that is the width, but how deep from the top surface is the bead?
Reply:while i understand the need for being able to start in the middle of a sheet, for this application, its not needed, i want to go from one end of the part to the other.secondly, please explain to me why you think that the harbor freight one will only go a couple inches in and not say 11", it has a 12 inch throat, and as long as your not needing to turn the part, i dont see why you couldnt go the length of the part start to finish at any interval up to the throat depth.also, i deal with condecending people at work all day, so please dont patronize me with "gee i wish there was a standard"  I'm not some weekend warior that dosent have a clue, thus why i posted the actual thickness of the materail.you do raise a good point about the oxidation of the copper.  I have seen this on several occasions.  and yes it is true that customers would want thier parts to look new, but this isnt a comercial endevor, this is my personal interest, and furthermore, the parts would be coated with something, what i dont know, as knotbored said, most of the coatings that are flexable enough to deal with the thermal expansion and contraction of the parts wouldnt be good in this application, and the thermaly absorbtive coatings that would be, would probably flake off.sorry, not trying to flame anyone, and maby its just too early and the coffee hasnt kicked in, just, when i read that, it came across and struck a chord.  perhaps my mistake and i mis interpreted it.  If that is the case, then i apologize.
Reply:There are a couple of threads in this forum demonstrating modifications to the harbor freight bead roller.  The mods increase stiffness and stability.A good project motor would be form the harbor freight electric hoist.  It is 1-1/8 hp and turns about 60rpm.  It has a 18mm hex shaped shaft.  I use one on a large ring roller, it has rolled 1/4X2" the hard to about 38 in radius. I think it would work for you copper sheet.  It also has a remote start with reverse.  You could easily adapt the remote to a foot pedal.Just some thoughts.  Good luck with your project
Reply:Originally Posted by project5kwhile i understand the need for being able to start in the middle of a sheet, for this application, its not needed, i want to go from one end of the part to the other.secondly, please explain to me why you think that the harbor freight one will only go a couple inches in and not say 11", it has a 12 inch throat, and as long as your not needing to turn the part, i dont see why you couldnt go the length of the part start to finish at any interval up to the throat depth.also, i deal with condecending people at work all day, so please dont patronize me with "gee i wish there was a standard"  I'm not some weekend warior that dosent have a clue, thus why i posted the actual thickness of the materail.you do raise a good point about the oxidation of the copper.  I have seen this on several occasions.  and yes it is true that customers would want thier parts to look new, but this isnt a comercial endevor, this is my personal interest, and furthermore, the parts would be coated with something, what i dont know, as knotbored said, most of the coatings that are flexable enough to deal with the thermal expansion and contraction of the parts wouldnt be good in this application, and the thermaly absorbtive coatings that would be, would probably flake off.sorry, not trying to flame anyone, and maby its just too early and the coffee hasnt kicked in, just, when i read that, it came across and struck a chord.  perhaps my mistake and i mis interpreted it.  If that is the case, then i apologize.
Reply:http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb...Flowerbox1.jpghttp://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb...Flowerbox2.jpghttp://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb...Flowerbox3.jpgWe hung the baskets and copper boxes today. It went well.        Sincerely,             William McCormick Attached Images
Reply:Flower boxes?!?  Silly me, I always thought those were part of the emergency bedroom escape system!   Nice job McCormick.
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepFlower boxes?!?  Silly me, I always thought those were part of the emergency bedroom escape system!   Nice job McCormick.
Reply:Sorry for the thread hijack, but ...Nice and interesting work on the flower boxes William.  That much copper must have been some $$$$$ !
Reply:Originally Posted by Joe HHad to escape from many bedrooms?