Need to certify AWS D1.1 ASAP.............

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Guys I was presented the opportunity to work a job today, but in order to do it I need to certify AWS structural very quickly.  What should I expect time wise, and price wise as far as what it will take for me to get tested.  According to the AWS site there is an accredited testing facility not too far from me.  Can I just call them up and setup an appointment to test or is there more to it than that?  What is the actual AWS 7018 vertical unlimited test?  Is there a specified rod size or is it operator choice?  Thanks for any info you can offer.  ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Every time I have taken the unlimted 3 and 4g test it has been operator chosen...I have never used anything but 1/8 7018 myself. Its a good faith 4 hour test and as far as I know you are not allowed to use any power tools. Some places I ahve been tested they have the plates ready for you other places they have you fit them up ect...Pretty easy test. Just don't build up too much on the cover pass.'Mike
Reply:Dont stress on it Jackson, with your experience, you'll nail it no problem....Last time I had to do that it took about 15 minutes and was just some quick fillets flat and overhead. Nothing to it.....
Reply:If you just need or can get buy with a certificate saying you can weld something specific, then check out www.psiusa.com. I noticed you have one in Georgia.  They test used to cost $200 per couple.Just an option, not trying to sidetrack or start a arguments.
Reply:Well this is actually for a state building that is being erected.  The guy that was doing the welding was fired when the inspector came in and did a visual.  After seeing the work I can understand why.  The company called me and said that the inspector wanted someone with an AWS structural cert. and that if I was willing to get certified that if I passed the test they would cover the cost.   Plus the job itself is gonna be quite a nice sum of money.   I have taken the same test onsite for jobs, but it was not an actual AWS test and has been some years ago.  I am not really worried about the test as 7018 Vert is about 90% of my daily welding.  Just curious as to what the actual parameters of the AWS test would be.  Thanks for the info.  ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:If it is anything like L.A., and I believe it is since we take a written straight from the D1.1, then you weld a set of 1" thick plates with a root opening of 1/4" to 3/8" with backing. Preheat is in order to the tune of 150 degrees min. We ran 1/8" rod straight from the oven. As soon as the inspector ok's the test plate, then you have 4 hours. We were allowed wire wheels but not grinders. At the very least you can use hand tools to clean between passes, I would bring a set of picks, especially the right angle pick. Reenforcement crown must be flush with the top, but not to exceed 1/8". No undercut. City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:d.1.1 you should be able to use power tools, clean, grind, etc.All my certs have been structural bridge code d1.5, no power tools except to prep peices.  The inspector will give you a rundown of what they want to see, everyone is a little different.Personally i run 1/8 root, 5/32 fills. and 1/8 caps, but thats just me.good luck, it aint no thang but a chicken wang...
Reply:x2 on d1.1.  I had a cert for structural pipe and plate all position, TIG root and 7018 fill and cap.  You could grind whatever you wanted on that thing, including spot touchups on the cap pass to bring if you had excess reinforcement.  I tested on pipe, but the plate guys were allowed to do the same.
Reply:A couple of things.1) AWS D1.1 does NOT require that you go to a 3rd party to take a qualification test. A contract may but the code does not. Companies test and certify their own welders EVERY day. Both in accordance with AWS D1.1 and ASME Sec IX.2) If you are going to work as a contractor for t his job, you should also need a Welding Procedure Specification (WPS). . That is only if the work you are doing is to be in full compliance with AWS D1.1.3) The things you are allowed and not allowed to do on a test are often dictated by someones opinion or past experience.  There are specific test assemblies for AWS D1.1 that provide dimensions etc. The use of grinders, number of passes, bead width, etc.. are not addressed in relationship to a welder perfromance test. Those things may or may not be on the WPS.I am by no means the authority on the subject but will be willing to help you if you have purchased an AWS D1.1 Code book. I could go through the various chapters with you to explain how it works. Of course you can just go to an "Accredited Test Facility" however that will not help you if you don't have a WPS.Have a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:In addition to the good information that gaustin has given, the AWS test is most likely the same as previous structural tests you have taken. Also, you are not required to go through AWS to get the certification, just that you test in accordance with the code requirements. One of your previous certs could possibly cover you if your continuity is covered.
Reply:Originally Posted by ironman715Every time I have taken the unlimted 3 and 4g test it has been operator chosen...I have never used anything but 1/8 7018 myself. Its a good faith 4 hour test and as far as I know you are not allowed to use any power tools. Some places I ahve been tested they have the plates ready for you other places they have you fit them up ect...Pretty easy test. Just don't build up too much on the cover pass.'Mike
Reply:Originally Posted by qaqcIn addition to the good information that gaustin has given, the AWS test is most likely the same as previous structural tests you have taken. Also, you are not required to go through AWS to get the certification, just that you test in accordance with the code requirements. One of your previous certs could possibly cover you if your continuity is covered.
Reply:I believe that AWS D1.5 (bridge code) is the only major code that has the no power tool requirement. Additionally, this is only in regard to fracture critical work.
Reply:Well I talked to them a bit more this morning.  This company doesn't even have a welder on the payroll so they don't have CWI that could test me in house.  After talking to them this morning the inspector said that he wanted someone that held a Structural Cert. in whatever process they would be welding in the beams with to do the job.   Honestly I am not real familiar with certs, and requirements etc...  but from the lack of details I am starting to wonder if this is a Cover their A$$ thing.  I have contacted the Accredited AWS testing facility today, and they are gonna let me know when they could test me.  I'm gonna talk to the inspector in the morning and try to find out exactly what it is he is wanting and a WPS if there is any.  Thanks for the info.  ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Step one when welding or working to a spec, is to get or have a copy of the spec.State public work probably has boiler-plate somewhere in the paperwork about welds to be done by a certified welder.  To an extent, it is a CYA thing.  It is also a way to try and have workmanship knowledge and standards.As mentioned, code/certified welding is done to a WPS.  Welding done by a certified welder using whatever he/she felt like doing or using is just a weld, no longer a certified weld.State job usually means all sorts of paperwork requirements.  The contractor should (or better!) know what is required contracturally.  If parts of the job are subbed out, the applicable contractural requirements have to (or should) be passed down to the subs.  If you are subbing to a sub to the prime/general and they don't make available the information (contractural, paperwork, regulation, whatever) to you, I'd probably CYA with your own work order/contract with your clauses and conditions, etc and let the next sub up the chain from you get everything to line-up and reconcile the paperwork.The inspector could want all sorts of things, but if it's not in the original contract or paperwork his/her wants are just that.  Wants.The inspector could very well be correct and know that the job requires the welding to be done by a certified welder.  Or it could just be a want.He might want the welders to all look like Hooters girls, but I really doubt that is in the contract.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:It smells a little fishy. I would let them show you the requirements.Have a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:When I took the AWS 3G with bare wire and Co2, the CWI wanted to see the plates I supplied.  He recorded the brand of wire I was using and had to see the root pass.  I was allowed to use an electric wire wheel. I had all the time I wanted to do the test.  The CWI came to my shop and it cost me $150.00 I passed, thats all I know.On the cell towers, they accepted the 3G (Unlimited thickness) for bare wire even though I am using 8018, mostly vertical up, but some flat and overhead.  The only WPS for the cell towers is It must be E80XX and low hydrogen type. Fillet size is specified for each weld.    So bare wire isn't ruled out, but go find some ER80SD2 in 30 + lb spools to fit in my LN-25.   .Good luck, I hope you get the job and make some good $s.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Ok, Talked to the Job supervisor this afternoon.  He works directly for the general contractor with the job, and they do quite a bit of State work, and have several contracts with Georgia and Alabama.  From what I have seen, they normally do very good work.  I think this is a case of hiring a bad subcontractor, and now having to clean up his mess.  According to the supervisor the WPS states all welds are to be performed with Low hydrogen electrodes  of E70XX.   Nothing requiring certification is stated.as far as the welding is concerned.  It only states that the welding will have to pass visual inspection.  Nothing about a certified welder performing it.   The inspector made the statement after seeing what had been done that he would "like" to see a certified welder doing the work so the contractor is trying to please him.   So I guess that it doesn't matter what I am certified to as they are just trying to please the inspector after a screw up.  I am going to talk to the inspector on Thursday, and will let you know what he says.   However, I will add that they did say that If I was willing to certify D1.1.  Then they would guarantee me enough work with them related to it to stay current so it's kind of a win win situation. I appreciate the input.  ~JacksonLast edited by Hammack_Welding; 09-10-2008 at 09:28 PM.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:That is odd that there is no specific "code" referred to for the actual erection. And that there is no requirement for the welder or procedure to be qualified in accordance with any code. I guess it may be like roadside signs and such until one falls.They just put one up near my house but I think I'm outside the radius in which it could fall!Have a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:gaustin, I honestly am not sure if Georgia is a bit different from other states as far as what is required to weld on structures.  I have worked on tons of jobs, and some were state jobs and none of them required certification or stated anything specific of the welding to be required.   To be honest I can't think of but one other structural job that I have ever worked on that I was even asked if I was certified.  I could be wrong, but in my experience I have just never run across it here in my area.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:I agree that as a welder you may NEVER be asked if you are "certified" however most building projects of any kind have project specifications that usually indicate what industry code or standard a product must be built to.Often times that document refers to AISC or AWS D1.1 or both. As an inspector I have been on a few projects where the "requirements" didn't quite make it down to the contractor.I would be highly confident that the project specifications or drawings (maybe not the erection drawings) refer to AWS D1.1 or some other specification directly.Being a "certified welder" has very little to do with the end product if no control is placed on other welding related information. Fitup tolerances, preheat, visual acceptance criteria, classification of joints or connections etc..I have seen large companies sub out work to smaller companies and not hold the smaller companies to the project requirements with the idea that the smaller companies would not be able to comply or would add cost to the bid if those requirements were made mandatory.Most projects for a governement entity are built to some code or standard. I really doubt if the erection of a cell tower were to be audited back to the ooriginal procurement documents, you would find more requirements than just having a "certified welder". However I am speaking what I think based upon years as an inspector in various industries. Cell phone towers are NOT one of the areas. However I would think an owner is taking a big risk if they are not controlling more than a "welder certification" that is one of the most abused terms in the industry.Have a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:In my area in the Northeast we are asked for our papers the first day on the job. The no power tools thing may be the union hall making the test that much harder to pass and thus ensuring a higher quality certified welder. I have taken welgin tests for the ironworkers to AWS standards an taken test for the Boilermakers union to ASME standards. In both cases NO powered tools were allowed. Also the I think its the DOT test that you have a 4 hours to complete the test not the standard AWS test. But for us we take the DOT so as to cover yourself for any occassion you may have. not trying to give misinformation. I am only relating what my experience has been over the years.'Mike
Reply:Gaustin, the blueprints for the cell tower mods do say it has to be done according to AWS D1.1  Sometimes they require preheat, some times not.   I usually do anyhow.  Type of steel is always specified.  Usually A572 type 50 or 65.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.