Welding Class

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So I just met with the local Community College welding instructor. He wants me to enroll in Welding 101 twice. I would like to get certified at some point. He said to enroll twice because then I will be there 2 times a week and I will have the required competency for 201. From what I can tell I only need to take it once, to get into 201, but he strongly suggested signing up for it twice.  Can anyone else elaborate on this for me? My dad agreed and said it would get me the time I needed but I didn't get a chance to talk with him about it anymore.  I took the same 101 class when I was in high school, and a bit more lazy , and never filled out the dual enrollment paperwork so didn't get the credit for it.  What do you guys think? Is there a different route I should try to go here in Phoenix?Thanks,Tom
Reply:I'm not saying that is right or wrong but it makes absolutley no sense to me.  I can understand there maybe being 2 classes required for another class but never 2 of the same classes. If you take the same class twice it can be of no benefit towards any credit hours.Thats my 2 centsYes I can tack it for you.    I know that won't hold but that is what you asked me to do.  Millermatic 350P XR Aluma-Pro push/pullMillermatic 185/spool gunMiller Dialarc 250 HF Water cooledThermal Dynamics Plasma
Reply:This is just a guess,  but welding is mostly practice.....If you get double exposure to a class it stands to reason that you will progress faster than someone with half the exposure.  Any welding class is designed to make you ( hopefully) a competent welder who has learned more and is more proficient than a student with only half the " Time' and practice"  as you progress you will learn new things and increase your skills.To me... taking two welding classes should help you go further...faster  and even if you don't get credit for both classes you will learn and progress twice as far during the same semester.good luck and practice, practice, practiceLongevity LS 160 P tig/Plasma comboLincoln AC/DC 225 TombstoneMiller 170 Mig (shared with neighbor)"Life is like Ice cream...Enjoy it or it melts away" joebiplane
Reply:I know that instructors get paid in tech colleges around here for the number of classes they fill.  Although I hate to question the instructor's motive, there may be a secondary reason for him wanting you to take a second class.  There may be too many in one class and not enough to have a second class. Again for reasons of financial incentive to his wallet, he may be advising you thus. and is seeking to get enough to fill out the requirements for having a legitimate additional class.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by joebiplaneThis is just a guess,  but welding is mostly practice.....If you get double exposure to a class it stands to reason that you will progress faster than someone with half the exposure.  Any welding class is designed to make you ( hopefully) a competent welder who has learned more and is more proficient than a student with only half the " Time' and practice"  as you progress you will learn new things and increase your skills.To me... taking two welding classes should help you go further...faster  and even if you don't get credit for both classes you will learn and progress twice as far during the same semester.good luck and practice, practice, practice
Reply:Welding is incredibly complicated. There is no substitute for experience, both book time and seat time. Take all you can get. I have three dozen books and have read most of them. I'm only in my third class. And I still have trouble with open butt, vertical up and overhead. It's a never ending learning journey.9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250
Reply:I say clone your self and take it 4 times.  practice as much as you can.  Ive been taken classes for the last two years and still need more practice to test.  I take an r.o.p class on mon and tue.  that is still not enough.  so I traveled 4 hours away to take a class that is 8 hrs a day, 5 days a week. plus paying for a hotel for month.  your teacher is right.
Reply:In theory it sounds good but what do you really get out of the second class. Take the 1st class find out what type of equipment you'll actually be training on in the wellding lab/shop. With that knowledge take the money that you would have spent on the second class and buy some used equipment and pick up some material to practice on.You can also ask if you could spent extra time in the lab/shop practiing. If they don't agree with that ask the teacher if he has a shop you can practice in. Most of my apprentices stay around after the required shop time to gain additional experience. Works out for the shop too because they do many of the local small jobs we have in shop and that frees up the cert welders to work on the bigger production shop jobs.TomCo-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:craig in denver said it all.most welding classes are 5% instruction and 95% practice..which is  what you need.
Reply:If you weld twice as much, you will progress twice as much. Welding is a practice developed skill. Though knowledge and experience shared by others can accelerate the learning process it is not needed. One can learn to weld completely without the aide of an instructor. It may take a long time, but it can be done.One cannot learn to weld without welding. Period. Another option if you have gotten to the skill level where your refining your techniques, consider getting a welding machine. You may be able to pick one up use for what the class would cost. Of course it depends on what you are practicing. But it is something to consider.The classes where I teach are essentially free for many if they are displaced workers or laid off. Even then, people don't make it to all 4 classes during the week.Have a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:Hi ya Gerald  how was your Thanksgiving?  Live24weld Gerald's http;//www.weldingdata.com also has plenty of good info.Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:I doubt you'll retain a whole lot welding once or even twice a week. Welding is all about practice and muscle memory. the more you do it the better you get at it. As long as you strive to get better and have the right guidance you'll get better and better. Personally I would try and find a local Vocational high school (voc-tech) and talk to the welding instructors there to see if they run any night courses. I have been welding for 10 years and I still go back to my high school for night classes every time I switch from mig to stick or tig jobs. It takes a little bit to get the rust out even for experienced welders. I wouldn't doubt if you picked up more at that voc tech training over your community college course. Either way I say go for it and take it twice because there is so much to learn about welding and I doubt you or anybody will retain much from a once a week course. Then again it depends on your financial situation. If you find a career center and feel like doing a lot of leg work then chances are you'll be able to get them to finance one of your courses as long as you're unemployed.
Reply:Hey specter,Thanksgiving was good. Got my 1st teaching job at night this year AND work out of my home office during the day. It doesn't get much better than that.Also, my previous post above is not meant to devalue any instructor. Its just that I think the best thing for a student to do is weld and for an instructor to help him whenever he can. You cannot help anyone without letting them struggle a little on their own. Thus, the more time spent welding, the more time struggling trying to do better.Have a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:coming from an instructor, here's what i do (and no - i'm not paid by enrollment). our night classes meet twice a week for approx a little over 3 months each trimester. sounds like plenty of time right, well, that's what most students think as well when enrolling. here's reality, when you add them all up it comes out to approx 80hrs or so, two full time weeks at a 8-5 job, that's all. our night time welding program consists of 3 trimesters which means i gotta teach guys how to weld, including book work, printreading, math, etc., in approx a month and a half if you were to add it all up back to back to back. not too bad for the hobby welder, extremely difficult for the guy wanting to take it all the way to pipe, it's just not enough time to get proficient at it, even if you have some welding background. so 90% of our guys that get additional state certifications came back for additional trimesters. i can teach you in that time, and you can learn in that time, but getting good enough to pass a state certification in that time, well, just doesn't happen unless they have a pretty good welding background. we don't let students take a certification until they show they can do the weld over and over, cause that real life. being able to do 1 or 2 well out of 10 means you know what to do but need more practice, being able to do 4 or 5 out of 10 means you are getting better, but, need more practice, being able to do 7 or 8 out 10 means you are getting close, but, still need more practice, get the picture. how do you get more practice, more classes (unless you have access to a welder at home or work). bottom line, it takes practice, practice, practice to get good enough to be a proficient welder that can perform all day every day. so you have to decide what you want to do with welding. talk to your instructor. i talk to my students to find just what they want. from there i can tell them best case versus reality to worst cases. and after each trimester we re-evaulate where they are vs their goal. but in every case, it always come down to how much time do they have to invest in welding to achieve their goal. that very first trimester is usually a hard dose of reality when most find out just how much is involved in becoming a complete welder and not just a bead runner.johnjohnwelding instructorwww.williamrmoore.orgMooreTech College of Technologywelder/fabricatorJGWilson, Inc.www.jgwilson.com
Reply:Always in a case like this, you add extra "mandatory" days in the shop every week called lab days.  If not enough room, then you set up for independent study.  If not enough time and room, why on earth are you teaching welding?  You can't have a serious welding program and not have enough time and room.  Individual instruction is key to a sharp learning curve.  If only a class or two is being offered, then it isn't approaching a course of study, just as you said, you are only teaching hobbyists, sort of continuing education so to speak.But if you have a comprehensive program, teaching principle and theory, plan/print reading, OA, TIG, MIG, etc, each in its own class after a first overall 101 type class, then you have a program aimed at producing career welders.Last edited by lugweld; 12-05-2008 at 10:29 AM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:lugweld, i understand what you are saying but please read, my post was for our night class program, which is a part time program consisting of 2 nights per week for 3 trimesters. we also teach full time day programs, which are very comprehensive and aimed purely at those wanting a career in welding. but, what about those that have day jobs and can't attend full time during the day but still want to be career welders? do we say, sorry, you guys can only be hobby welders? of course not, if means that those that can only attend at night need extra classes to learn the same as those that attend 5-day day classes. my post was aimed at this group. after each trimester we then also counsel each student, evaluate where they are and what they want and structure their program accordingly. it might mean we see if they can attend 4 nights a week (doubling up) or coming back for additional trimesters to achieve their goal. we do everything possible to make sure that they have every chance to learn just as much as those having the benefit of attending 5 days a week, if just takes them longer at night. might not have been clear on previous post so i hope this helps.johnjohnwelding instructorwww.williamrmoore.orgMooreTech College of Technologywelder/fabricatorJGWilson, Inc.www.jgwilson.com
Reply:John,Thanks for your information. I teach for a community college and the day class is designed to be 160 hours for a basic welding class. Its my opinion that this is only enough time to touch on the very basic technical information and very limited practice time. I teach at nights so only get 12 hours per week. One of my students got discouraged because he has been here since september and is still stick welding. Attached is what he has done. Just last night he was able to run 3 seperate vertical fillet welds 6" long on 3/16" x 1-1/2" flat bars using 1/8" e 7018. I was proud of his achievement.  But he was not as thrilled. But in actuality he learned to do this in 2 weeks and a day.We have a "mobile welding lab" and no actual classroom. One is available but arrangements have to be made for keys etc. Its not actually a classroom but is a room with a table in it at a local county office. So I try to send study information home as opposed to using much class time.Have a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:hi there gerald, how's things over in iuka? i need to drive over one day and say hi to you. what's you're class schedule look like for december?and i agree with you, what the school thinks should be sufficient hrs for a certain program is never the same as what the instructors think!! i think that's way it is almost everywhere. and yep, it's easy to for students to get discouraged sometimes cause they've been at something for over a month in a night class but in reality it's really been about two full time weeks. you gotta keep stressing that at night. and i can't see the attachment on my end, but vertical on average is the one most students struggle with, sounds like you're doing very good with him!johnjohnwelding instructorwww.williamrmoore.orgMooreTech College of Technologywelder/fabricatorJGWilson, Inc.www.jgwilson.com
Reply:I forgot the attachement. Here it is. I keep a database of what everyone works on for each class to see if there are any trends for how long specific tasks take. It aslo reminds me if I have missed out on covering some things. We have had limited classroom time so some things are stuill lacking.You should come bhy. I teach from 6 to 9 Mon, Tue, Thur, Friday . We are probably only taking off Christmas day and the day after. I'll pm you with a phone number. Call me if your ever in the area. Attached ImagesHave a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:Hello John & Gerald - looks like I started working part time at the wrong tech school!  This is approaching the end of my first quarter doing the night welding classes, and I'm not happy with the way it went at all.  The class turned out to be the opposite of what the original poster of this thread was asking about.  I've got guys in my class that were advised to be signed up for Intro to welding (safety, threory, machines, yadda, yadda), intro to TIG (mild steel only, flat and horiz), and advanced TIG (mild, aluminum, stainless, all postions) all at once - in one time slot!  Since I was new to the program I didn't fuss much about it and very much regret it now as these guys are nowhere near where they need to be to finish everything.  It is just a giant mess...  I have one guy taking intro to welding, stick II (horiz), stick III (vert), and stick (IV) also all in the time slot of one class.  As you can imagine there's no way that gives the time needed to practice everything...So, while I'm only listed as having three classes (all occur in same time slot) in reality I have: intro to welding, intro tig, avanced tig, mig, blueprint reading 1, b.p. reading 2, oxyfuel cutting, stick II, stick III and stick IV....
Reply:hi tubularfab, it's fun right?! actually, my school also does that because students can enroll at any given trimester. that means i've got folks in all stages mixed together. guys finishing up on stick, or tig, or pipe, mixed with first trimester intro folks. it's difficult to manage at the start but you'll get used to it. you gotta get yourself a system down and then it's not so bad, but it keeps you on your toes cause you gotta be able to go from one thing to other and back and forth without missing a beat. that's the price we pay teaching at a tech college where welding is just one of the many programs offered. we aren't a huge welding school where people come from all over to attend with multiple classes of each stage, we're local but get some regional (outside small towns that don't offer night classes that drive in). although we've had waiting lists for the night classes the past few years it's not enough to have two welding instructors per night. if we did we could separate intro students from advanced but then there's also something to be said for intro students to be able to watch advanced students during class. what i've done is i have my advanced students spend 1hr per class for a week showing a new student what they're working on. it teaches them to show/explain/answer questions helping them become better welders. but the biggest challenge is classroom time for each, teaching welding in the shop is the easy part, fitting all the classroom time for each level with all we offer is the hard part. but if it were easy, everybody would be teaching it! lol!johnjohnwelding instructorwww.williamrmoore.orgMooreTech College of Technologywelder/fabricatorJGWilson, Inc.www.jgwilson.com
Reply:I have never taught for a school. Only companies. This was the 1st opportunity I had. There was no established curriculum and thus I was allowed to modify what was suggested. There was no course objective stated other than an "entry level" training course.My 1st thought was to try to just touch on everything using little to no acceptance criteria for deciding the skill was developed. I later decided I would do that only through the pad welding portion and the only acceptance criteria was to be able to perform 3 layers of pad weld with no visible previous layers and no valleys deeper than about 3/32" between beads. After that I am working towards people being able to make a fillet weld that meets the visual acceptance criteria of AWS D1.1. Thats where the time starts t o slow down. I think it will be worth it but I think the people when they finish will be disappointed that they are not MASTER welders or "Certified" (the most abused term in the industrry) Tubular Fab, your program seems to be an extreme the other way. I had wantedd to teach in the HS's here but needed a "associates degree in the discipline to be taught" . The CC I teach for now didn't offer one. I went to the next state over. The price for a HORIZ Fillet weld class was $300.00+ . OUTRAGEOUS is what I thought and still do. I couldn't challenge a test or anything. I would have to pay full fees for all of the labs even though I could pass the tests. Education is a business. Thats all there is to it. But that doesn't stop me from trying to do whats right by the students. Our enrollment is completely open. I have 7 booths and 6 students with anywhere from 3 hours of classtime to 87. I have no more than any two students that have 10 hours or less class time.Have a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:I don't know what your situation is and I don't know what tuition at your local community college is but in my area it is almost $300 per course. Since we have already concluded that practice is a big part maybe you can take that tuition money and buy a machine and some rod and practice all you want , when you want and you will always have the machine. A good one can be had used from $100-500 . Get some books or a friend with experience to point you in the right direction. I find that amperage ajustment is key when your starting out , That can be found in most books and Rod tables then dialed in to your personal liking. As for metal , grab every scrap and piece of garbage off of the curbs that can be fused together as long as you can get rid of it when your done. Good Luck"Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Gerald - this is actually a technical college as well.  The requirement for this school is "associate's degree in the field or a closely related one" plus a minimum of 10 years (or was it only 5?) documented time working in the industry.  I am working at the school 22 hours a week right now as an adjunct instructor.  I have a motorsports fabrication class the runs from 10:00 am to 4:00pm in the motorsports department, then go to the welding department for the evening 5:30 - 10:30 class.  This is two days a week.  Looks like next quarter I'll have motorsports welding in the day slot, and BP reading I and II, oxyfuel cutting, and one elective class evenings...We have about 15 booths in the welding lab.  There are 7 various tig welders, and then 8 or 9 Miller XMT 304's for mig and stick in the other booths.  The fab shop in the motorsports department is all red with 3 mig welders and 5 tigs...We are pretty laid back on letting guys get as much practice time as they'll give us.  For instance the students can come in if the lab is open and an instructor is present even if it's not their allocated class time.  The only real issue is making sure they are currently enrolled and therefore there aren't any insurance ocverage issues...Last edited by TubularFab; 12-05-2008 at 03:37 PM.