death by electrocution ?

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dear all a strange incident happened in my workshop on 25th of sept. a technician who was working on a railroad wagon reportedly got electrocuted and died on the spot.welding work was being carried out on the wagon while he was working.Four other technicians were also working on the same wagon and they did not feel the shock.welding was being done by a AC welding machine with an O.C.V of 70 V AC.No other 230 V AC machine was being used on the wagon. we could not find the specific reason of electrocution but there were burn marks on both of his palms as he was fitting a gear in the wagon by holding it.The strange fact is that how come a person can die by 70V AC current ??? why didnt others feel the shock??? after the incident the machine was checked and there was no leakage AC current in it and the shop was completely dry.Another interesting fact is that one month before thisincident a painter felt the shock while painting on anotherwagon placed at the same berth and welding was being carried out by the same machine.Thankfully he survived.But this time we were not lucky enough. Can anybody throw some light on the cause of  death??We are still unaware of the specific cause so that we can take corrective action.Members may like to discuss
Reply:Maybe you guys aren't looking at the right thing. I guess my first look would be the cord that the machine is plugged into. Being a paramedic and seeing a lot of stuff out in the field and also owning a welding business, it sounds like it went through the chest if he had black on palm of each hand. It doesn't take very much amps if it goes through the chest. Hell his 110 grinder or drill or any other 110 device that is was using could of cause death. That would make sense since the others didn't feel the shock. Also another thing is that there should of been a breaker tripped. That would tell you what shocked the guy also. You might want to look at the breaker that the welder is on. Some people put a bigger breaker on so it don't trip. The bad thing about this, is if something happens you don't have the protection.Good luck and sorry to hear about your guy.Aaron
Reply:Jmpdiesel,  Welcome to Weldingweb.  What an opener.With all due respect, the cause of a person "reportedly" being electrocuted deserves a far more thorough investigation than asking for opinions on a web forum. I would presume the work area has been shut down until a specific cause of the accident is found. In what country did this accident take place?Good Luck
Reply:Originally Posted by jmpdieseldear all a strange incident happened in my workshop on 25th of sept. a technician who was working on a railroad wagon reportedly got electrocuted and died on the spot.welding work was being carried out on the wagon while he was working.Four other technicians were also working on the same wagon and they did not feel the shock.welding was being done by a AC welding machine with an O.C.V of 70 V AC.No other 230 V AC machine was being used on the wagon. we could not find the specific reason of electrocution but there were burn marks on both of his palms as he was fitting a gear in the wagon by holding it.The strange fact is that how come a person can die by 70V AC current ??? why didnt others feel the shock??? after the incident the machine was checked and there was no leakage AC current in it and the shop was completely dry.Another interesting fact is that one month before thisincident a painter felt the shock while painting on anotherwagon placed at the same berth and welding was being carried out by the same machine.Thankfully he survived.But this time we were not lucky enough. Can anybody throw some light on the cause of  death??We are still unaware of the specific cause so that we can take corrective action.Members may like to discuss
Reply:Denrep said "I would presume the work area has been shut down until a specific cause of the accident is found.".This was the first thought that poped into my head also after reading your story.So what was the outcome of said investigation or the coroners report?Sorry to hear of the fatality.FelonCaution lurker lives here" hmmm That is serious,pass the ganja and pick up a  24 of MGD"
Reply:If he had burn marks on both of his hands,could he have not been welding when he was killed ?Like if the rail itself and car, was hot for an instant.Just for curiosity , how many volts are in an engine drive motor ?
Reply:Can anybody throw some light on the cause of death??
Reply:Really, a lot more info is needed, and a site survey is pretty much required to identify cause with reasonable confidence.A few things to ponder:70VAC will certainly kill in some cases. The current is what matters, not the voltage, and 70VAC peaks at 100V, which, depending on the health of the individual and the path the current takes, can be fatal. If there are burns on BOTH hands, and none elsewhere, it is likely the current path was through the chest cavity. I would guess that postmortem would identify more detail, but it would take an examiner with the expertise to identify damaged tissue and the particular indicators that would differentiate between electric shock as the cause of death specifically (burning or stopping the heart muscle directly), rather than, say, a heart attack indirectly caused by the incident (such as when someone has an attack when startled), or due to other injury incurred during the incident (such as falling when startled and striking the head), or one of many other possibilities.For reference, 40VDC has been known to cause fatality in some cases, and, in the US, 50V (AC or DC) or higher MUST be shielded/guarded from contact, other than in certain special cases (work lead on an welding source for manual welding is one of the exceptions, but there are other conditions that apply... see 29CFR1910.303(g)(2) for guarding, there are many other sections that apply as well). On a few occasions, the literature shows electrocution deaths from sources below 32V, and electrically caused deaths from 12V (usually due to secondary causes, such as hitting the head when startled, etc)See also the NEC (published by NFPA as NFPA-70)As to how a shock occurred? A few things to look at would include:the bearings of the equipment in question. If there was a ground fault to the rails, there MAY be indication of this (or not. Depends on the fault current and duration)The employees shoes: are they insulating? Were they wet/sweaty?The employees gloves: are they insulating? were they wet/sweaty?Was there sign of head trauma?Was the holding a part being tacked into place, where he may have provided the current return path to the general structure? (Or contacting two parts of the structure for the same case, if he wasn't where the welding was going on?)Is there a ground fault in the welding source?Was there an insulation flaw in the welding leads (including connectors) that may have allowed for an unintended welding current circuit path?Is there other equipment IN THE SHOP that has a ground fault? Or an ungrounded case that may have, directly or indirectly, had contact with the equipment in question?There are a LOT of other possibilities. I am going to guess from your use of the word 'wagon' and noting that you refer only to 230V gear that you are not in the US. Here, the first time the painter felt a shock, there would have been a mandatory stand down for the near miss with the painter (or incident, if he was injured) until the cause was found and rectified... Not all businesses follow the requirement to the letter, but it is the law. If you don't, there is a HUGE liability issue if another incident occurs. Originally Posted by jmpdieseldear all a strange incident happened in my workshop on 25th of sept. a technician who was working on a railroad wagon reportedly got electrocuted and died on the spot.welding work was being carried out on the wagon while he was working.Four other technicians were also working on the same wagon and they did not feel the shock.welding was being done by a AC welding machine with an O.C.V of 70 V AC.No other 230 V AC machine was being used on the wagon. we could not find the specific reason of electrocution but there were burn marks on both of his palms as he was fitting a gear in the wagon by holding it.The strange fact is that how come a person can die by 70V AC current ??? why didnt others feel the shock??? after the incident the machine was checked and there was no leakage AC current in it and the shop was completely dry.Another interesting fact is that one month before thisincident a painter felt the shock while painting on anotherwagon placed at the same berth and welding was being carried out by the same machine.Thankfully he survived.But this time we were not lucky enough. Can anybody throw some light on the cause of  death??We are still unaware of the specific cause so that we can take corrective action.Members may like to discuss
Reply:It has been a long misconception that voltage doesn't matter but it is false. You cannot have current with no voltage the both play a part. 12volts at 40 a is less likely to fry someone as 120V at 15 A,this of course depends on health and environment(sweat).I.B.E.W Electrician and Damn Proud of It !!!! .Virtus Junxit Mors Non Separabit http://www.shrinershospitalsforchildren.org/
Reply:sparky#1so which is more dangerous?voltsoramps?i know that you need both to make a current.i always thought that it was the higher volts that got you in the end.but i don't know for sure.your examples are out of balance: 12V @40 and 120V @15A = different currentG
Reply:Well you need to seperate those rare cases which have maybe been known to cause death from those which are very likely to cause death to have a logical discussion. Just because someone licked a 9 volt battery and fell over dead doesn't mean that flashlights with batteries should be classified as lethal.The statement that this guy had burn marks on his hands indicates there must have been a certain degree of power involved. Now whether that was a low voltage and higher current or a low current and higher voltage is yet to be determined. Watt was it that killed him, is the question? Last edited by Sandy; 10-06-2009 at 12:30 AM.
Reply:Burn marks mean high voltage.I  worked at a feed lot when I was very young.  A man got blown off of one of the legs going to the top of the mixer.  He created a circuit with his body allowing 600 some volts to pass thru.  His hands were literally gone.  No meat leftOpen circuit voltage from a crackerbox welder can kill if it passes thru the upper body, and stops the heart, but I wouldn't imagine there would be burn marks on the hands.  After making some foolish comments here, I read up on it.I'd almost bet there's current from an outside source that is flowing thru the bay somehow, and intermittantly.  An occasional fault.I'm probably wrong.  Everybody here knows I'm not too good with electricity."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:In the end someone is going to blame a Chinese welder...just watch...But whatever the cause, the burn marks would have been significantly higher voltage or amperage I think. I have been caught on an electric fence charger without getting burn marks...But I didn't hold on for long.I don't know at what point the V/A combination will leave burns, but I suspect the rail car was pinching someones electrical cord under its wheels or the power grid was improperly grounded, or a under ground cable had surfaced under the rails grounding out to the car.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:we have closed down the workplace.this incident happened in INDIA where there is 230 V Ac supply for equipments and not 110 V.investigation is still on.Autopsy report is still to be received as this is a remote town.will keep u all updated about the findings
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldIn the end someone is going to blame a Chinese welder...just watch...
Reply:Originally Posted by gordfrasersparky#1so which is more dangerous?voltsoramps?i know that you need both to make a current.i always thought that it was the higher volts that got you in the end.but i don't know for sure.your examples are out of balance: 12V @40 and 120V @15A = different current
Reply:Originally Posted by 59halfstep  Lugg-  You're  not trolling?  ....................... Or are you????
Reply:Originally Posted by gordfrasersparky#1. . . your examples are out of balance: 12V @40 and 120V @15A = different current
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepSparky#1, I'm curious as to how the two examples are inversely proportional to each other?
Reply:Originally Posted by Sparky#1The higher the voltage the lower the current,The lower the voltage the higher the current.
Reply:With the burns I think it was less likely welding voltage that killed him.  Two other sources  still remain.  High voltage can travel a long way on railroad track.  At another area an cut cable or down power line could have come in contact with the track.    The other source would be from a shorted/ defective welder.   Buzz box welders are banned on a lot of job sites for this reason.  They have shorted out and put line voltage into the welding leads.   I have done work overseas and some of the welders they use will put your hair on end.  There is no incentive for a lot of those companies to use safer equipment.   Low or no fines and a line of people waiting to work to replace other workers.
Reply:By the way, I side with volts as being the wicked sister. I can't think of a single example of a combination with low voltage and high amperage that will transmit a shock through the hands. For example - A truck's battery pack has an amp potential measured in thousands of amps, yet the terminals can be touched without worry of shock. Meanwhile, the same truck's ignition coil has an output of much less than an amp, and actually is measured in milliamps. Yet the the coil's output current of far less than an amp, could knock Paul Bunyan (and his blue ox too )  flat with its high voltage.Has anyone ever seen a sign that read: Danger High Amperage? Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 10-06-2009 at 10:30 AM.
Reply:When thinking of voltage and amps, and which is the problem...consider the analogy with water.  Voltage is equated with water pressure, and amperage is equated to water flow.  Low water pressure (force per unit area) either in buckets or bathtubs applied to the skin causes no harm, but a tiny water stream will cut you in half at high pressure.  Like water pressure, if voltage is sufficiently high to overcome the resistance of the skin, it will permit the flow, water or amps, to pass through the skin.  Unless sufficient force is applied, stored water or amperage ie. will do nothing.
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepI understand how that applies when working with a known load, but I don't understand how the two examples are proportional to each other. Some formula?
Reply:Originally Posted by Chris BarWhen thinking of voltage and amps, and which is the problem...consider the analogy with water.  Voltage is equated with water pressure, and amperage is equated to water flow.  Low water pressure (force per unit area) either in buckets or bathtubs applied to the skin causes no harm, but a tiny water stream will cut you in half at high pressure.  Like water pressure, if voltage is sufficiently high to overcome the resistance of the skin, it will permit the flow, water or amps, to pass through the skin.  Unless sufficient force is applied, stored water or amperage ie. will do nothing.Originally Posted by Sparky#1The higher the voltage the lower the current,The lower the voltage the higher the current.
Reply:neat-o is right-o!
Reply:Originally Posted by Sparky#1The higher the voltage the lower the current,The lower the voltage the higher the current.
Reply:I may be wrong but I believe voltages and amperages much lower than what you have stated can be lethal. As luck would have it we get away with a great deal due to conditions that don't allow us to be a good ground. Gloves, boots, insulation and other things. Could be this fellow just some how got a very good contact with a very good ground source, electricity is lazy I'm told, it will run the easiest path to ground, if a human body becomes the best ground it doesn't take much. While your looking for all these super voltage sources, don't forget to look at the other side of the equation, what is the best potential ground in that area?"Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:My dad worked for the power company. He always told me that 1/2 an amp is enough to kill you. And then I watch the discovery channel and see people that survived lightening strikes with hundreds of thousands of volts, I don't get 'lectricity. Did learn not to touch the electric fence at a young age.Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe